Enable ".save" command

[tristan]

Hello there,
I have the following suggestion.

Having some years of experience playing many private servers and later play retail, a common issue on private servers is the "mini-rollbacks" that happen when the server crashes. Generally in most private servers running different emulators (trinity, mangos, custom ones like here, etc.) when the server crashes, there is a 5 min or so rollback when only some data of your character is saved, but most is lost. This is VERY annoying, and I experienced this on the beta test today as most of you probably did too.
Well, there is a solution for this; at least on Trinity emulator, there is the ".save" command that instantly saves most of the character data thus preventing losing things because of a server crash. There is even an AddOn that writes the command periodically for you, where you can configure how often it is done (I have it and can share if you want). Most private servers have this command available to players because of that.

Unfortunately on Kronos the command is not available:



So, my suggestion is that you can enable the ".save" command permanently even on the official release. This would be very helpful.

 

[Lharts]

Its more about removing the crash then adding a command to counters the symptoms

 

[tristan]

Yes of course I agree with that too Lharts, but it is always possible to have a server crash because of new reasons, so it is sort of a last resort for avoiding problems, and during the beta test, helpful so you don't lose progress while testing.
It is very difficult that any emulator can get the level of stability that retail has (no emulator has achieved this since they exist).

 

[Amel]

I believe it's stated before though that your character is saved every time you loot something (no matter what kinda item) aswell as every x minutes. So in that respect you should never lose anything important.

 

[tristan]

I believe it's stated before though that your character is saved every time you loot something (no matter what kinda item) aswell as every x minutes. So in that respect you should never lose anything important.

Yes, that's true, the problem is that in those X minutes (i'm 90% sure its more than 5 mins) A LOT can happen. It happened to me before many times: boss died, lost loot, etc. I'm talking from my experience on many other private servers, and that's why almost every other private server of different expansions have it available. It is really needed.

 

[Psojed]

Enabling the save command would only cause more crashes, because the more often you save, the more resources it takes. Imagine all 1,2k people saving.
Or just a few people spamming .save. There's also an addon that can be set for autosaving every X seconds...

So, no, probably won't happen.

If you absolutely need a "save", like when you loot a binding of the windseeker or smth, trade 1 copper with your groupmate.

 

[tristan]

Enabling the save command would only cause more crashes, because the more often you save, the more resources it takes. Imagine all 1,2k people saving.
Or just a few people spamming .save. There's also an addon that can be set for autosaving every X seconds...

So, no, probably won't happen.

If you absolutely need a "save", like when you loot a binding of the windseeker or smth, trade 1 copper with your groupmate.

Actually, is not like that. I played on some private servers that had more than 1k people on average, and the emulator and the server could handle it with no problems. The resources that it takes to make that transaction are not as high as you think, even with the sum of 1k people spamming it, I can tell you that because on those servers most people used the addon or even put the command on their macros for spells, and the server didn't crash or got lagged because of that. I insist that is a must, please take the example of most of the servers with high population nowadays, all of them have the command available. At least try it and see how it goes.

 

[Spufy]

I test this think here...Ok i Add Item ""X""....do some think for 1-2-5 min...Server crash.Rollback-->im back with 5 min..but ithem that i add is still in my invertary.

 

[tristan]

That's because when you create the item with command is totally different than looting it from a corpse. When you loot something, that data is not saved instantly.

 

[Spufy]

Maybe u are right...anyway when server is Done(no insta crash) will have no need to .save. :smile:

 

[tristan]

That's the problem: no emulator can reach a point when it will not be any kind of crash, not even on retail. I can assure you that. That's why I said it's more like a last resort to avoid problems, specially people complaning of lost items.

On other server I played they had to make a system to ensure that people actually lost the items to avoid scammers. And don't get me wrong, that server was very stable (could last weeks without a crash), but it still happened.

 

[goris]

The server does save your character after you loot something, Kronos server that is, but if I'm not mistaken it's itemlevel dependent i.e. only the higher ilevel items bother the database to save them. At least that's how it is on the datadisks, maybe Kronos saves all loot?

It is still possible that crashes happen that even roll the game back for several minutes. It rarely happens as one of our main focusses was to make the server more stable.
1h+ or even days? This only happens if your hardware fails. Kronos wants to deliver quality. Proper hardware and fail safe setups are part of this. So far we never had data loss due to hardware issues.

- Players are saved directly into the database every couple minutes (worst case, few minutes rollback)
- Daily database backups (never had to use those, but its good to have them just in case)
- Some actions also save a player directly into the database such as:
> looting (if you loot an item and server crashes you will not lose this item)
> trading
> mail
> completing a quest
> and so on (basically anything where items changed the owner)

Additionally, after a crash the server restarts in seconds. If the server "hangs up" the system will autmatically restart it. The timeout before is 30seconds.

 

[tristan]

Would be nice to test that, thank you for pointing it out goris. As soon as beta comes back i'll be aware of what is saved if there is any crash.

Anyways I still think it should be available, it will really save many hedeaches for the admins when the server goes official.

 

[Psojed]

Actually, is not like that. I played on some private servers that had more than 1k people on average, and the emulator and the server could handle it with no problems. The resources that it takes to make that transaction are not as high as you think, even with the sum of 1k people spamming it, I can tell you that because on those servers most people used the addon or even put the command on their macros for spells, and the server didn't crash or got lagged because of that. I insist that is a must, please take the example of most of the servers with high population nowadays, all of them have the command available. At least try it and see how it goes.

There were no problems because the saving command was limited to actually perform the save only once in a few minutes. If you played on the first versions of mangos or ascent emulators, at that time it even wrote a system message-like notification informing the player that he couldn't use that command yet. That notification got later removed, and after that some servers removed the command completely.

 

[tristan]

There were no problems because the saving command was limited to actually perform the save only once in a few minutes. If you played on the first versions of mangos or ascent emulators, at that time it even wrote a system message-like notification informing the player that he couldn't use that command yet. That notification got later removed, and after that some servers removed the command completely.

Nowadays versions of Trinity, Mangos and their derivated emulators still have the command, and it is NOT limited, unless it's an specific server who did it with their reasons, but most servers have it available. You can actually spam the command. I've tested it many times, and it was very obvious how people who didn't use the command, had rollbacks of 5 mins or so after a crash, and I didn't. I know that because I'm a programmer myself, and I coded for a Trinity-based server like a year and a half ago.

 

[ghanburighan]

4 times in a row. It has to be because some one found a feature that isn't working and keeps trying to use it. this is what beta is for

 

[tristan]

4 times in a row. It has to be because some one found a feature that isn't working and keeps trying to use it. this is what beta is for

In what is that related to this thread?




Anyways, tested on todays rollbacks. Lost quest items, so, when you loot it DOES NOT save everything.

The command REALLY NEEDS to be enabled.

 

[Skosh]

One of the reasons it's not available is that people won't use it correctly. Okay, let's pretend that people incorporated the .save command into macros involving buffs or mounts. At most your character is saved every like what.... 5-10 min? Something reasonable?

Complete ****ts will bind it into their primary attack macros "just to be safe, it's not hurting anything" and spam the button to save the character 8 times per 5 seconds. Now pretend that you have a server pop of 1400+ people in which whole guilds pass the info along so close to 20-30% of the players are spamming it in attack macros.

It screws. Servers. Up. I've personally witnessed the latency change in two private servers both before and after it's disabled, and the difference was tremendous. Valkyrie disabled it for this reason, every Molten server disabled it for this reason (back before 2011 I think), Bloodcraft and Hellground also disabled it for the same reason. If players could use it responsibly it wouldn't be a problem, but players can't be counted on to do that because they're stupid.

 

[Aurigon]

Wouldn't it be possible to enable the command and implement some sort of cooldown to it? Like a 10 minute one, so that players will be able to use it while unable to spam it?

 

[Aieris]

And what's the reason then? Your character is saved every 10 mins + all loot is saved the moment you loot it.

 

[redgiant]

Giving explicit save in the hands of players would give up control over the save distribution mechanics for load balance reasons. You don't want to have uneven save characteristics for something that can spike so variably on I/O. There's a reason saving is deferred and done via timer or important events to begin with.

I would think the built-in autosave does some jitter to ensure a lot of players don't perform it at the same time, and it is likely put into some work queue to be done in doses. Letting people demand a save when they want would interfere with this lazy mechanism.

 

[tristan]

One of the reasons it's not available is that people won't use it correctly. Okay, let's pretend that people incorporated the .save command into macros involving buffs or mounts. At most your character is saved every like what.... 5-10 min? Something reasonable?

Complete ****ts will bind it into their primary attack macros "just to be safe, it's not hurting anything" and spam the button to save the character 8 times per 5 seconds. Now pretend that you have a server pop of 1400+ people in which whole guilds pass the info along so close to 20-30% of the players are spamming it in attack macros.

It screws. Servers. Up. I've personally witnessed the latency change in two private servers both before and after it's disabled, and the difference was tremendous. Valkyrie disabled it for this reason, every Molten server disabled it for this reason (back before 2011 I think), Bloodcraft and Hellground also disabled it for the same reason. If players could use it responsibly it wouldn't be a problem, but players can't be counted on to do that because they're stupid.

Actually, like I said before, I have plenty experience in many private servers. Most of them have the command available, and with an average 1k - 2k players, with most players having the .save in almost every macro, it didn't make a problem; server ran smoothly. If those servers you mention took away the command, could be for another reason.

Wouldn't it be possible to enable the command and implement some sort of cooldown to it? Like a 10 minute one, so that players will be able to use it while unable to spam it?

I think this is a good idea, but with a lower cooldown. 3 min maybe?

And what's the reason then? Your character is saved every 10 mins + all loot is saved the moment you loot it.

I think that the reason is that with the command available but with cooldown, you have control when you save. So, if something important happened (like finishing a difficult quest, or getting a rare item), you control that in that moment the data is saved. Now, you don't know when it happens. And as I stated before, I made a test and not all data is saved when you loot: I lost quest items on those rollbacks the other day.

 

[Flynn]

Most servers with enabled .save command don't save your character everytime you use that command but there is a hidden cooldown. I have played on server, where .save command was set to do nothing but show system message 'Player saved.'

It really does not matter whether the server has that command enabled with cooldown of 5 minutes or the server itself handles saving world every 5 minutes for you. The difference is that in the first case everyone has different rollback depending on the time of last sucessfull .save but those who don't use .save command in macros/addons suffer the most.

 

[tristan]

Most servers with enabled .save command don't save your character everytime you use that command but there is a hidden cooldown. I have played on server, where .save command was set to do nothing but show system message 'Player saved.'

It really does not matter whether the server has that command enabled with cooldown of 5 minutes or the server itself handles saving world every 5 minutes for you. The difference is that in the first case everyone has different rollback depending on the time of last sucessfull .save but those who don't use .save command in macros/addons suffer the most.

What I'm suggesting is having the .save command available PLUS the normal world save that server automatically does. It makes a difference, because even with a 5 min cooldown, you can control when your data is saved.

 

[Artick]

What about relogin? It has 0 cooldowns and what we have done all life.