Ok, I think it's time for a release date on BWL...

[Riki]

Release of BWL would be big mistake, most of ppl here are still not 60 and we want time to enyoj again old moments in MC and Onyx.

and yes, few guilds completed those two raids but if we check all players here then would be just 10% or lower.
So please there is no need for push, turbo release of new content every 3-4 months ruined retail WoW.

New content can always be released but when is out there is no way to change mind and go back so please if is possible wait at least 2-3 month more before BWL.

 

[Zipzo]

Release of BWL would be big mistake, most of ppl here are still not 60 and we want time to enyoj again old moments in MC and Onyx.

and yes, few guilds completed those two raids but if we check all players here then would be just 10% or lower.
So please there is no need for push, turbo release of new content every 3-4 months ruined retail WoW.

New content can always be released but when is out there is no way to change mind and go back so please if is possible wait at least 2-3 month more before BWL.

You do realize that just because BWL is out doesn't mean guilds stop doing MC. Even when AQ40 is out, guilds will still be doing MC.

Vanilla doesn't go tier by tier, pretty much every tier remains relevant throughout vanillas existence. Guilds progress individually depending on what they're ready to tackle.

 

[HBK]

indeed, you can't wait for everyone to clear MC and Onyxia before BWL is allowed to come and as Zipzo says, the content won't be gone when more Raids are available. It will still be a must to run those, that's the beauty of WoW in Vanilla and TBC.

But i disagree with you Zipzo when you believe that BWL will "last" longer. In a way, BWL will not even stand as long as MC did (yes, that's possible ).

So the right timing for BWL is absolutely critical imo. and it's hard to tell when the right time is. One thing is for sure, there will be a much longer gap between BWL and AQ than there will be between MC and BWL.
But if BWL gets cleared the same id it opens (which will surely happen, if it doesn't get tuned up) these guilds will farm BWL for easily more than half a year until AQ hits and that will give these guilds such gear advantages that it makes AQ trivial as well and that would be a huge bummer.
A good example is another server that has been waiting for AQ release for over a year alrdy (of russian origin, begins with the letter "V"). People on that server in raiding guilds are all standing there in FULL BIS GEAR, they even have BIS gear for off specs because they farmed BWL for so long. Going into AQ with such gear can't even be fun anymore, it's a joke.

And that's why i am suggesting to tune up the raids from this point forward (at least 40man content). The players are too knowledgeable of the vanilla content and the 1.12 talents make all content before Naxxramas way easier than they were back then. (Fire Mages alone make a huge difference in AQ, we're lucky these speccs aren't viable in MC and BWL)

It is for these reasons mainly why i can only stress it out to tune up these raids. Give the Guilds some challenges that they have to go through. Some proper "progress" experience is what it's about. Nobody can tell me that you want more "walks in the park" type of raid dungeons

And Chero, you say it yourself to let the server last longer, you wanna wait a little more before releasing more content, this makes sense! And tuning up the upcoming 40 man raids makes the exact same sense for the same reason.

But anyway, i'm way off the topic again. Zipzo is asking for an EST, yes it makes sense to have an EST and yes it would be great for the server to release BWL before Nostrils, but i gotta doubt that it will have the huge impact on our population if that happens. Most people don't switch servers that easily.

Also keep in mind, if you announce BWL too long in advance, you know that Nostrils will react on such an announcement. You saw how they stole Kronos' hype by copying the advertisement strategies and places, they will do the same rush when they see that Kronos is about to release BWL in a couple of months.

 

[Liqorice]

Hey guys,

It might be time for Blackwing Lair.. However, barely two months passed since launch, and the only reason that's holding us back is the fact, that Kronos is not even two months old.

At such pace, we would have to release Naxxramas this year :>

Blackwing Lair is well prepared and it will be announced before actual release.

Im glad to see this Chero, BWL IS DONE!
I havent seen any other server working this fast, the other server dont even have Dire Maul done and we HAVE BWL <3

Thanks so much Kronos

 

[Zipzo]

indeed, you can't wait for everyone to clear MC and Onyxia before BWL is allowed to come and as Zipzo says, the content won't be gone when more Raids are available. It will still be a must to run those, that's the beauty of WoW in Vanilla and TBC.

But i disagree with you Zipzo when you believe that BWL will "last" longer. In a way, BWL will not even stand as long as MC did (yes, that's possible ).

So the right timing for BWL is absolutely critical imo. and it's hard to tell when the right time is. One thing is for sure, there will be a much longer gap between BWL and AQ than there will be between MC and BWL.
But if BWL gets cleared the same id it opens (which will surely happen, if it doesn't get tuned up) these guilds will farm BWL for easily more than half a year until AQ hits and that will give these guilds such gear advantages that it makes AQ trivial as well and that would be a huge bummer.
A good example is another server that has been waiting for AQ release for over a year alrdy (of russian origin, begins with the letter "V"). People on that server in raiding guilds are all standing there in FULL BIS GEAR, they even have BIS gear for off specs because they farmed BWL for so long. Going into AQ with such gear can't even be fun anymore, it's a joke.

And that's why i am suggesting to tune up the raids from this point forward (at least 40man content). The players are too knowledgeable of the vanilla content and the 1.12 talents make all content before Naxxramas way easier than they were back then. (Fire Mages alone make a huge difference in AQ, we're lucky these speccs aren't viable in MC and BWL)

It is for these reasons mainly why i can only stress it out to tune up these raids. Give the Guilds some challenges that they have to go through. Some proper "progress" experience is what it's about. Nobody can tell me that you want more "walks in the park" type of raid dungeons

And Chero, you say it yourself to let the server last longer, you wanna wait a little more before releasing more content, this makes sense! And tuning up the upcoming 40 man raids makes the exact same sense for the same reason.

But anyway, i'm way off the topic again. Zipzo is asking for an EST, yes it makes sense to have an EST and yes it would be great for the server to release BWL before Nostrils, but i gotta doubt that it will have the huge impact on our population if that happens. Most people don't switch servers that easily.

Also keep in mind, if you announce BWL too long in advance, you know that Nostrils will react on such an announcement. You saw how they stole Kronos' hype by copying the advertisement strategies and places, they will do the same rush when they see that Kronos is about to release BWL in a couple of months.

Maybe be it's because it has been a while but for some reason I foresee/remember BWL being a bit more tough...gear checks, tighter execution windows and so forth.

 

[Hamtaro]

Maybe be it's because it has been a while but for some reason I foresee/remember BWL being a bit more tough...gear checks, tighter execution windows and so forth.

I don't know how it'll play out on this server, but on retail all bosses except for Nefarian have been killed the same day they were released. And Nef hasn't been killed because nobody had the Onyxia cloak, but as soon as everyone had it (4 weeks IIRC), he also got killed right away.
It might be a little bit tougher here, since we haven't had the same time to gear up, but I expect BWL to be cleared within the first 4-6 weeks. And there's nothing wrong with that.

In my opinion they should release content similar to how Blizzard does it. The first 2-3 content updates come rather quick and after that they gradually slow it down. This feeds the hunger for new stuff at the very beginning and makes people accustomed to longer and longer waiting times instead of letting them wait for months and months right at the beginning.

 

[HBK]

Maybe be it's because it has been a while but for some reason I foresee/remember BWL being a bit more tough...gear checks, tighter execution windows and so forth.

and we would all love to have BWL like this wouldn't we?

for that to happen, BWL needs to get buffed. Synced has cleared BWL on the old Kronos, we didn't have enough people back then for full 40man setups, but whenever we had 30-35 ppl we were able to clear BWL quite easily.

As the population is higher now and guilds go in there with full raids, i can actually tell that BWL won't be such an obstacle. The dps players can do these days, because of all the different factors makes BWL just too easy if the normal blizzlike HP and Damage values are used for the Bosses.

I have always been a guy that laughed at Feenix' ridiculous Boss HPs. They doubled or even tripled most Bosses hp, and i always thought "what the heck are they doing". (ofc let's not forget that feenix had way more bugs and problems that made it necessary, like totally op spell/dmg coefficients on characters.)

But i realised now that it would be better for the immersion of vanilla raiding, to step away from Blizzlike Boss HP and Damage values. It just makes it too easy and that really kills the immersion of some proper raiding progress that we wanna have.
Even in AQ the very same thing would happen, especially because of Fire Mages who can easily run double or more of the dps that Mages did in AQ 10 or 9 years ago, because back then Frost was still the specc to go and not the OP 1.11 Fire specc.

- - - Updated - - -

It might be a little bit tougher here, since we haven't had the same time to gear up, but I expect BWL to be cleared within the first 4-6 weeks. And there's nothing wrong with that.

4-6 weeks would be awesome. but waking everyone up from the dream, BWL will be cleared the same night (or at the very least the same ID) it opens.

 

[mulen]

i agree with HBK the moment BWL Opens the guild that have done Onyxia for enough times will be able to clear it within the day.

in case you don't know how to find the world firsts and such here is a link:
http://manaflask.com/en/articles/a-history-of-world-firsts-vanilla-updated

keep in mind these day sets was when no1 knew any tactics and had to learn the encounter and by then creating a tactic to test out wether it worked or not.

 

[Magra]

I want a challenging BWL too. But asking for it is kinda selfish. There are guilds out there still trying to clear an easy content like MC. No matter how they tune it, top guilds will clear BWL the same night as you said. Lower tier guilds will be stuck in BWL for months and people want to clear the content will be forced to join the few top tier guilds and will be put on the bench since they already have solid raiders. Would you keep playing here in a situation like that? I wouldn't. We are all here just to enjoy the endgame of vanilla again.

About the release date... We need more people to start here and a new content could be a reason for some. If BWL is really ready, that would be nice to have it in 1 or 2 months in my opinion. :innocent:

 

[Hamtaro]

4-6 weeks would be awesome. but waking everyone up from the dream, BWL will be cleared the same night (or at the very least the same ID) it opens.

I haven't looked into this at all, but are we already able to get Onyxia's Scale in order to craft the cloak? If so I have to agree, it'll be over the same day.

 

[HBK]

I haven't looked into this at all, but are we already able to get Onyxia's Scale in order to craft the cloak? If so I have to agree, it'll be over the same day.

of course, all guilds that are farming onyxia, also get her scales that you need for the cloak. within the next month i guess all guilds that are farming her now will have enough scales to equip an entire raid with those cloaks. so that barrier is already out of the way

- - - Updated - - -

I want a challenging BWL too. But asking for it is kinda selfish. There are guilds out there still trying to clear an easy content like MC. No matter how they tune it, top guilds will clear BWL the same night as you said. Lower tier guilds will be stuck in BWL for months and people want to clear the content will be forced to join the few top tier guilds and will be put on the bench since they already have solid raiders. Would you keep playing here in a situation like that? I wouldn't. We are all here just to enjoy the endgame of vanilla again.

does enjoying the content mean roflstomping over it from day 1? to me that's not enjoyable at all!

also, if things are overtuned, it can be nerfed again at any time. that's how blizard always worked with their content and i think that's the right model.

have it hard, maybe too hard in the beginning and get it down to a manageable level if need be.
this is much better than having stuff too easy. if it's too easy, people will be unsatisfied, feel unaccomplished and you just don't do justice to the lovely content of vanilla wow

 

[Zipzo]

It's not really a valid argument to say that more people need to have completed the current content before new content is released.

Hell its blizz-like for that NOT to happen (how many people experienced Naxx before TBC hit? Less than 1%?).

Part of vanillas charm is its BREADTH of content. Multiple tiers of progression that you climb a ladder through with your guild. You could all jump in to AQ40 and get your butts kicked if you wanted to, but you'll find out that you need the gear from BWL very quick. It's that ultimate freedom to choose which content you can do, maybe even clear harder content under geared.

not everyone WILL clear BWL, not even close to a majority will clear c'thun, so when does Naxx get released huh? If you want even 10% of the population killing c'thun before they give us Naxx, we will basically never get Naxx.

a server should not cater content to players who won't even consume that content.

 

[Aieris]

Cheros point was - untill now, there were like 4 guids able to raid MC. Now more managed to get enough people for MC raids so BWL release should be close now.

 

[oetker]

What do you think about that:
If kronos staff gives us an estimated release date for BWL, Nos will do everything they can to release BWL before that date. So maybe it's better to keep that date more "secret" and only tell us on a rather short notice...

 

[Chillbill]

good point but did u know that they did not even released Dire Maul?

 

[Revo]

good point but did u know that they did not even released Dire Maul?

i really like the timeline theyve created: https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4

but as you can see here: https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4040&start=50 and https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4040&start=410

more than 2 months after ragnaros/ony killed have passed. so according to their timline ("Dire Maul will open 1 month after Molten Core & Onyxia Lair content is cleared. Regarding raids, Black Wing Lair will be available 2 months after Molten Core & Onyxia Lair content is cleared.") dire maul should be out for 1 month out already and BWL should just have been released.

even tho i think that releasing content that fast would be retarded, it seems that they can/do not stick to their plans at all. the planned 2 months probably become like 5, or 6, or ...

so no hurry, relax and when the time has come, we will pop BWL

meanwhile "we" can focus on polishing the current game, do PR or just enjoy ourselves :blink::laugh:

 

[Tripic]

Cheros point was - untill now, there were like 4 guids able to raid MC. Now more managed to get enough people for MC raids so BWL release should be close now.

7 guilds on the server have cleared MC, about 8 raid groups (CORAL has cleared MC with both its NA and EU raid groups). 300-500 people are waiting for BWL right now.

 

[oetker]

good point but did u know that they did not even released Dire Maul?

haha, nope, I didn't
but that doesn't mean that they wont release bwl before kronos, if they can (since they also released the server even though there was still a certain amount of problems with it...)

 

[Pibie]

If folks want it to be "blizz-like", then perhaps content should be released on a similar time-line to retail? That's 8 months for BWL, a further 6 months for AQ and 5 months after that we can have Naxx?

I get the eagerness, I really do. Hell, we're all in the same boat at this point. However, everyone cried for blizzlike rates and release schedules and now that they're getting it, they're complaining?

There are so many contradictions throughout it all that it's no wonder the developers are struggling to please everyone. This discussion and all like it should be null and void until 8 months elapses.

It's not really a valid argument to say that more people need to have completed the current content before new content is released.

Hell its blizz-like for that NOT to happen (how many people experienced Naxx before TBC hit? Less than 1%?).

Part of vanillas charm is its BREADTH of content. Multiple tiers of progression that you climb a ladder through with your guild. You could all jump in to AQ40 and get your butts kicked if you wanted to, but you'll find out that you need the gear from BWL very quick. It's that ultimate freedom to choose which content you can do, maybe even clear harder content under geared.

not everyone WILL clear BWL, not even close to a majority will clear c'thun, so when does Naxx get released huh? If you want even 10% of the population killing c'thun before they give us Naxx, we will basically never get Naxx.

a server should not cater content to players who won't even consume that content.

 

[Chillbill]

For AQ you also have to consider the War Effort where TON's of Stuff is needed.

 

[Pibie]

For AQ you also have to consider the War Effort where TON's of Stuff is needed.

Agreed but you also have to bare in mind that the first server to open the gates did so just 20 days after the war effort began. Assuming that there would be scaling for the size of our player base, I don't think that should really be given too much weight when making the decision but should be taken into consideration nonetheless.

 

[Zipzo]

If folks want it to be "blizz-like", then perhaps content should be released on a similar time-line to retail? That's 8 months for BWL, a further 6 months for AQ and 5 months after that we can have Naxx?

I get the eagerness, I really do. Hell, we're all in the same boat at this point. However, everyone cried for blizzlike rates and release schedules and now that they're getting it, they're complaining?

There are so many contradictions throughout it all that it's no wonder the developers are struggling to please everyone. This discussion and all like it should be null and void until 8 months elapses.

There are several veins of logic that make it quite obvious why you can't apply the old retail release time line to a modern day progressive vanilla server.

For example, rag wasn't killed for MONTHS in retail, so it actually made sense back then. He was killed near instantaneously within the first two weeks people were hitting 60. That's not a contradiction, it's a pure and simple difference of circumstance.

Waiting that length of time in our situation would be strongly recommended against by likely, anyone with a grasp of the situation.

 

[Tripic]

If folks want it to be "blizz-like", then perhaps content should be released on a similar time-line to retail? That's 8 months for BWL, a further 6 months for AQ and 5 months after that we can have Naxx?

I get the eagerness, I really do. Hell, we're all in the same boat at this point. However, everyone cried for blizzlike rates and release schedules and now that they're getting it, they're complaining?

There are so many contradictions throughout it all that it's no wonder the developers are struggling to please everyone. This discussion and all like it should be null and void until 8 months elapses.

Everyone huh?

Even if all the forum users wished this, that still wouldn't be saying much. After all, look how dead this place is.

 

[Pibie]

Everyone huh?

Even if all the forum users wished this, that still wouldn't be saying much. After all, look how dead this place is.

Go back to Autumn/Winter of last year and you'll see what I mean. Please don't overlook the past tense used on the very next word from the one that you underlined.

People begged and begged for it. Half of them bit off more than they could chew and never even made it to 60, exactly as predicted.

There are several veins of logic that make it quite obvious why you can't apply the old retail release time line to a modern day progressive vanilla server.

For example, rag wasn't killed for MONTHS in retail, so it actually made sense back then. He was killed near instantaneously within the first two weeks people were hitting 60. That's not a contradiction, it's a pure and simple difference of circumstance.

Waiting that length of time in our situation would be strongly recommended against by likely, anyone with a grasp of the situation.

Exactly. You hinted towards a desire for Blizzlike when you said "Hell its blizz-like for that NOT to happen". There needs to be balance, for the good of the server. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean catering to the raid loggers either.

If BWL is released then farming tends to slow down after a week or two, 5man groups come to a hault and new players feel a little more of a gear gap when hitting 60; especially with 5 mans being harder to get at that stage of the servers life span.

Also, the contradiction was in reference to the voice of the community as a whole, which seems to be swinging back and forth depending on what they fancy doing on that particular day - if they can be bothered to login of course.

 

[Revo]

if i could decide, i would just look at the vanilla retail release dates and then slightly adjust them. release BWL and ZG a little earlier, maybe AQ just like it had been and possibly naxx even a little later, so we also end up having 1,5 - 2 years of fun (vanilla lasted 2 years).
this would still mean like 2 more months till bwl. sounds shitty, but its MCs and 1.12.1s fault!