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Kronos and GDKP raid

You don't get it.

a) Feel free to make your own hunter.

b) If you don;t want to do a) it's still good for the rest of us. That hunter will spread his wealth equally over 39 other players.. The more they spend, the bigger the spoils for all of us. On warsong I EARNED a lot more than 200g / hour in GDKP runs..

Want gear boys? everyone forced to level a hunter alt to farm. yey vanilla content. any more retarded ideas?
 
I am simply opposed to the idea of getting gear no matter how horrible a player is as long as he has gold

When Vanilla was " on air " 10 years ago, i was playing on Archimonde Eu/FR and our best perf is 5th kill EU on Viscidus ( AQ 40 ). We fight for months vs a deliberated buggued C'thun to train. After fix, our GM call entire guild at 2 AM to kill C'thun as fast as possible, but feel free to think i'm an horrible player, Ermean from Vanguard, on private server 10 years later

Next, Voidzone pointed out a big flaw with any kind of "purchase" loot system (DKP included) - people can simply mess with others and scale prices up as much as they desire

True. Nothing else to say. All loot system you can imagine can't be perfect

Next, I believe such a system would weaken the guilds as lots of people will be satisfied with buying their gear in pugs with randoms rather than actually socializing in an MMO and being part of a tight community as guilds are. Recruitment pool would be smaller. Why should people who prefer to play solo/pugging care about that? Well they don't have to, but the game that I personally love playing is one that revolves around playing in guilds with 50-60 other people and working hard towards a common goal, and I would not like to see that damaged.

Yeah sure... I've done only one rush Molten Core on K1 ( PU ofc ). Full clean in 1h30... Dont talk about working hard or any kind of progress when i talk about running as PU into raid guild they're FARMING ALREADY

If you're not able to understand that after 10 years of hardcore raiding, i still love this game and i want to enjoy it in a different way with couple of friends, i can't do anything for you. Your point of view is perfectly understandable and respectable, mine is the same
 
When Vanilla was " on air " 10 years ago, i was playing on Archimonde Eu/FR and our best perf is 5th kill EU on Viscidus ( AQ 40 ). We fight for months vs a deliberated buggued C'thun to train. After fix, our GM call entire guild at 2 AM to kill C'thun as fast as possible, but feel free to think i'm an horrible player, Ermean from Vanguard, on private server 10 years later

I did not call you specifically horrible. My post is in no way directed at you, nor do those words mean that everyone joining GDKPs is horrible. You get insulted easily.
 
Would I, inside my guild, allow someone to take loot from others who sweated to earn it just because the person is bribing us with gold? Never. I would lose all respect for someone who offered such a thing.

What's wrong with you man ? I'm talking about buying item dont needed anymore

Can you please take time to read what i wrote ? In order for us to have constructive discussion please
 
I am simply opposed to the idea of getting gear no matter how horrible a player is as long as he has gold, which has nothing to do with his contribution to the raid (yes, I am aware that rolling doesn't ensure that the right person gets the item either - it's also a bad system).

These raids still have a raid leader (usually a small team , like main tank, lead healer, lead dps) Truly horrible players will be kicked from the raid (you don't have to pay in advance or so) and get told 'sorry, you screwed up too much, please l2play and then come back' in some sort of form.

Next, Voidzone pointed out a big flaw with any kind of "purchase" loot system (DKP included) - people can simply mess with others and scale prices up as much as they desire.

Free market. If prices are too high, people won't bid. Raids with any organized price scheming will get bad reputation and other raids will get more popular.


Next, I am also opposed to the idea of earning your money by joining pugs and getting gold from other people looting epics... the hell?! That might actually increase prices of rare materials even more since sellers will want their share of the profits from GDKP runs, which will make it difficult to earn money other than constantly joining GDKP runs, making most players' income dependent on doing GDKP raids and turning the realm into a GDKP fest.

Raids don't make money, they only REDISTRIBUTE EXISTING wealth (if we ignore the small amount of boss gold) Price inflation is caused by an increase in the amount of currency in circulation , not by redistributing the same amount of gold....




Next, I believe such a system would weaken the guilds as lots of people will be satisfied with buying their gear in pugs with randoms rather than actually socializing in an MMO and being part of a tight community as guilds are. Recruitment pool would be smaller. Why should people who prefer to play solo/pugging care about that? Well they don't have to, but the game that I personally love playing is one that revolves around playing in guilds with 50-60 other people and working hard towards a common goal, and I would not like to see that damaged.

This is the first valid point of concern. It is true that GDKP weakens the bottom end of the guild community. But our Vanguard, Synced type of guilds would still be alive and kicking in AQ40-Naxx.. GDKP is for the lowest tier raids.


Lastly, after years of playing vanilla, I do not believe that gold should have any role in deciding who gets an item that many people want. It is a currency used for upkeep and to help a person with most things they need to progress in this game, one such thing being a successful raider. Would I, inside my guild, allow someone to take loot from others who sweated to earn it just because the person is bribing us with gold? Never. I would lose all respect for someone who offered such a thing. Same way, would I find it to be okay if I joined a pug raid and then a "richboy" gets the items I want because of deep pockets? No.

You are mixing up two types of raids. Your fears are unnecessary. Your guild raids wouldn't have any gold buyers in it, so everybody gets what he earns in your raids and you would keep their respect. GDKP doesn't mean you as a guild invite a handful of rich boys in your raid to go on a spending spree... NO, these are separate raids where EVERYBODY is a buyer. (or somebody who just wants to earn a buck and doesn't want to buy anything. All loot is bought , no exception (except maybe a reserved legendary piece) All people that join know this beforehand. If an item is not bought it gets disenchanted. Nothing is given away for free. in the end all boe and enchanting results get auctions off as well, total tally is made and the spoils are divided by the number of raiders and mailed towards them.


So you would join guild raid in AQ40, loot like you always have. But after 43 weeks of MC uns you don;t really need anything there anymore.. And the same goes for the rest of your core members. So now they can chose to join a GDKP raid with their main or an alt and earn an extra buck. Or organize one themselves.

Most succesful GDKP runs were organized by established raiders from the most hardcore type of guilds, because that type of player knows how to organize a smooth raid.


I am fully aware that some of the points I have listed are personal opinions, not fact-arguments. But I hope that people agree with my point of view. It would simply change the game into something a bit different, something that I do not like.


I am glad that you recognize that most of what you wrote were not good arguments and I hope I have helped a bit clearing things up.
For your guild, Molten Core at this moment has about the same significance as Scholomance... That is the point! and the only reason to go is the Legendaries... With GDKP you can still go for those legendaries and turn the insignificant part into something new, a wealth distribution system....
 
I did not call you specifically horrible. My post is in no way directed at you, nor do those words mean that everyone joining GDKPs is horrible. You get insulted easily.

Misunderstand man, absolutely no angriness for me, you just make me laugh and thanks for this by the way
 
For your guild, Molten Core at this moment has about the same significance as Scholomance... That is the point! and the only reason to go is the Legendaries...

Garr + Geddon bindings, Ragnaros' belt, BRE for PvP, Band of Accuria, Majordomo shoulders + ring, Magmadar's Striker's Mark. Lots of reasons to raid MC until Naxx (yes, a few of those items become second-best with AQ but BiS items don't drop every week for everyone). Anyway, that is besides the point.

I seem to have given you impression that I am talking about GDKP in our guild. I am not, just wanted to compare things. Synced and Vanguard aren't the only two guilds; guilds falling apart is never a good thing for a realm.

Horrible players might not get kicked because raid leader wants their gold.
 
apart from all the personal opinions given about how the raiding scene should be looking like, the most impacting issue is this:
If you think 24/7 honor farming is bad then you have a big surprise when the same people realize you can buy gears by farming gold. You can also expect a lot more gold buyers and sellers here once they realize this is a thing here. There's a big market for them in GDKP servers, and even though GM's do a great job here, not everyone gets caught.

there are enough complaint threads about chinese gold farmers/sellers... GDKP would open an incredibly huge market for those gold sellers -> gold sellers will become a way way bigger issue than it is now. this alone is really why we all don't want this :D
 
GDKP is lovely for everyone ,that will bring communities together and everyone will have lots of fun. You can play together in same raid with all the best players in the Server and enjoy farming Raids.

Thumbs up! GDKP is what server currently need the most.
 
GDKP is lovely for everyone ,that will bring communities together and everyone will have lots of fun. You can play together in same raid with all the best players in the Server and enjoy farming Raids.

Thumbs up! GDKP is what server currently need the most.

OPTI ARE U PLAYING on k1???????????
 
@Muneca (and other proponents)
While a wealth redistribution system might sound good in theory GDKPs do much more than that.
Most noticeably they

  • Increase the value of gold
  • Reduce the value of guilds

At the moment gold only does so much for you. It allows you to buy mount, repairs, consumables and some minor gear pieces but that's about it. Should GDKPs become commonplace gold can suddenly buy you strong gear pieces as well, meaning that with enough of it you can get essentially everything in game just with gold. This would greatly increase the incentive for gold buying, deflating gold value and ruining the economy for those who play legally.

While you are right in that it would not likely have a big effect on "top end" guilds like Vanguard or Synced right away it will have a very noticeable effect on guilds just starting up. At the moment a guild provides value to it's members as soon as it can clear MC or even ZG. Should GDKPs become commonplace a guild needs to at least clear BWL in order to provide any real value, which as I'm sure you can imagine isn't that easy for a newly formed guild. This would, if not kill, then at least have a strong negative effect on the "lower end" raiding scene on Kronos, a scene that is just as important as the "high end" one.



I believe GDKP should be disallowed because it incentives gold buying.
 
I agree broadly with what Hagson says, especially because she* is the first one to build up a reasonable argument instead of just saying ' booh! booh! it's bad! ban it!

As for my position, I don't think GDKP is a good idea for a server in BWL progression. I experienced it on a server with a stagnant NAXX raiding environment and as you can read in my previous long posts in this thread I was always referring to it in that setting.
In other words, my arguments were made for a future raid environment.

Back to Kronos, we barely have any true pug raids on Kronos. That has several reasons.

a) pug raids suck compared with good guild raids.

b) all major guilds still run all raid tiers themselves. (sometimes even multiple times each reset, with alts)


Guild culture is going strong, hurrah!

Because of b) , there is little demand for pugs, and therefore gdkp is not an issue right now.

This will change when ZG / MC get dropped from the regular raid menu. That will happen on any old server at some point. Some day, the demand for pugs will go up because of this. But a) will still apply, so people will look for alternatives, enter....:

c) a gdkp raid, that has been proven to be the most popular evolution of pug raiding because of all the reasons explained in previous posts.


The whole gold seller - gdkp relation deserves a new article of its own, which I won't write right now. But I agree that it is an element for concern.

To summarize I would like to say that the whole issue is not as black and white as some of the doomsayers here claim.





* yes yes, I know she is a he, but I just naturally identify people with their avatars.
 
What, exactly, do you mean by "GDKP will reduce the value of guilds"? Guilds are useful and fun when likeminded people join them and decide to do things together. The fun parts are PVP, progression, and speedruns, as well as just generally hanging out and doing random stuff with your buddies online. Farming easy content is probably the least fun thing to do when you're in a guild. That's where GDKP comes in, to incentivize you to continue raiding that content and allowing newer players to participate in content they would otherwise be unable to participate in.

If you don't want to participate in GDKP, then don't participate in it, and find other likeminded people to guild up with. Why are you so concerned with what other people are doing that you have to call for their restriction to do it? Why do you feel so strongly about what other people choose to do, when it will not affect you in the slightest bit whatsoever whether it is banned or allowed?

If someone decides to run GDKP raids to gear up their character, it does not affect you. What grounds do you stand on to call for it being banned?

Banning GDKP because it will slightly increase the demand for gold and therefore somewhat increase the demand for gold sellers is a very weak argument. Only a small % of people participate in GDKP runs, and wayyyyyy smaller % of that already small amount will end up buying gold to fund themselves. That's like saying we should ban encryption because some criminals end up using it for their activities. It is a complete misdirection from the real problem. If you want to rid the server of goldsellers rid the server of goldsellers. Equating "GDKP" with "bad" because goldsellers are bad is a logical fallacy, it's wrong in the same way the argument to ban encryption is wrong.
 
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Banning GDKP because it will slightly increase the demand for gold and therefore somewhat increase the demand for gold sellers is a very weak argument. Only a small % of people participate in GDKP runs, and wayyyyyy smaller % of that already small amount will end up buying gold to fund themselves. That's like saying we should ban encryption because some criminals end up using it for their activities. It is a complete misdirection from the real problem. If you want to rid the server of goldsellers rid the server of goldsellers. Equating "GDKP" with "bad" because goldsellers are bad is a logical fallacy, it's wrong in the same way the argument to ban encryption is wrong.

You have no idea at all what you're talking about. 100's of people will be running GDKP runs daily, yes daily. A lot of these people are going to either buy gold and/or farm 24/7. Expect prices raised and that you won't be able to find a single node or farm in your spot because there will be someone there. Without gold you don't get gear, and you don't get to raid thus causing a lot of pressure. It is different here than to western world but it will affect all of you.
 
You have no idea at all what you're talking about. 100's of people will be running GDKP runs daily, yes daily. A lot of these people are going to either buy gold and/or farm 24/7. Expect prices raised and that you won't be able to find a single node or farm in your spot because there will be someone there. Without gold you don't get gear, and you don't get to raid thus causing a lot of pressure. It is different here than to western world but it will affect all of you.

Logical fallacy upon logical fallacy. disappointing, I expected better.....
 
The point of very small amount of people doing GDKP runs cannot be true if the participants end up getting lots of gold. That way it will be #1 source of income for most players and you will have to do them to keep up with the rising prices.
 
The point of very small amount of people doing GDKP runs cannot be true if the participants end up getting lots of gold. That way it will be #1 source of income for most players and you will have to do them to keep up with the rising prices.

NO NO NO!!!

For the last time, prices will not rise from GDKP, as GDKP is NOT increasing the amount of money in the system.

Prices increase if the currency in circulation increases, while the amount of production stays the same .



GDKP has no influence on the amount of relevant goods produced (herbalism as a relevant example here).
GDKP raids don't increase the currency . You don't farm gold in raids, you farm gear. (The little gold from bosses, also drops in non gdkp raids, no difference here.)
 
I think everyones missed the biggest reason why GDKP runs won't take affect on any non-warsong server: There are no safeguards for them.

If a dude comes into your GDKP run and pays 2k for a Rag choker, pays the raidleader, raidleader distributes at the end of the raid, and 1 week later that person gets banned for gold buying -> guess who else gets banned. The raid leader definitely, 39 others - maybe.

I know on Emerald dream and Nost whoever accepted gold from the buyer risked getting banned everytime they sold something in guild runs which is why they fell out of popularity once it became known. I think on nost they changed their policy eventually. I'll guess on warsong they had some kinda policy protecting people from this.

Muneca - Excellent writeup btw! But if GDKP runs become popular it incentivizes people into farming gold/items more and this leads to price increase because more gold is being produced than before.
 
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YES YES YES!!!

The rich people who accumulate gold and stash it away are the sinks. They don't spend it, they keep it for doomsday which never comes because that's the way they are. If their pockets start leaking gold, lots of people's fortune increases and lots of people get deeper pockets.

Now, as a person selling items, knowing that GDKP runs have started and that many more people are now wealthy... isn't the first instinct to increase prices of what one is selling? I'm not going to waste hours farming herbs if I can buy them with the gold I get from GDKP runs. And I will buy lots so I have enough consumables for the future. And many others will do the same. And then available market herbs amount will drop and prices will go up. And newcomers will do GDKP raids to get money as well so they can afford the things they need. One simple example.

Why do you keep saying "no" - what I stated is very logical way of reasoning about consequences. GDKP raids will eventually become a necessity if they are allowed a successful start, and lower-to-mid tier raiding scene will be a GDKP fest. "Raid in pugs to earn gold from others getting loot, wait a few weeks and then spend the money you earned to buy items so others can get your money, rinse and repeat. Keep doing GDKPs so that you can in future buy more gear that you desire so much. If you really want lots of gear fast, then keep farming outside of raiding as well so that you can spend more gold on more items." And of course I forgot to mention the 5% raid leader cut, which keeps pug leaders motivated to keep creating GDKP raids.

And now we come to "What's wrong with that? What's your problem with it?"... My problem is simply in the mentality shift where it all comes down to how much money you have acquired through any means, and promotion of such materialistic view of something as raiding. It damages many aspects of the game that I have mentioned in previous posts. It's not a game I want to play. I mean... why are we here playing on a vanilla realm? For most people the answer would be because things are damn hard to achieve (hard can be interpreted in many ways, whether genuinely difficult or just taking huge amount of time) and cutting corners isn't really a thing, so you gain a sense of accomplishment from the things you work for. But then certain people decide that they can get rich by simply "raid logging pugs" and taking their cut from all the gear that is being sold in their raids, and they attract people to join with the idea of getting gold for being there and letting others gain loot. Greed, greed and more greed.
 
If you have a problem with GDKP runs it means you're comparing yourself and your gear to others. In no way will it ever actually have an impact on you in game, the effect it has is on your ego alone. You have to at least admit that before this discussion can continue.

Once again, saying GDKP is bad because it increases the demand for gold is like saying encryption is bad because it can be used for crime. One thing is not necessarily bad because it is sometimes used alongside a bad thing. This is a huge misdirection and logical fallacy and I think you should consider it before continuing to make this point.
 
YES YES YES!!!

FINALLY FINALLY FINALLY!!

Finally a proper debate. Let me start with thanking you for taking the time to write a coherent argument instead of only splitting out some unfounded one-liners or a simple facepalm without reply.

Now let's weight your arguments.

The rich people who accumulate gold and stash it away are the sinks. They don't spend it, they keep it for doomsday which never comes because that's the way they are. If their pockets start leaking gold, lots of people's fortune increases and lots of people get deeper pockets.

Okay, I agree that this will be a factor. But will it be a big factor, a cause for inflation, or just a relative small drop in the pool of gold? To answer this we have to answer a lot of questions


  1. What is the total amount of gold?
  2. What is the average amount of gold a lvl 60 has available?
  3. How many 'wow-tycoons' are there?
  4. How much is their total wealth in comparison to the total under 1.)
  5. How many of these 'tycoons' are interested in entry lvl epics anyway?
  6. How much of the GDKP redistribution will be used to buy stuff like epic mounts? People will use the yields to buy that epic mount for their pvp-alt etc ...... Withdrawn from the system.

We can't easily answer most of these questions. So it is mostly personal experience and gut-feeling. As for 5.) I knew a lot of people on feenix servers who played for the 'Scrooge McDuck' factor.. They wanted to reach a certain high number and were absolutely not interested to spend it on mediocre loot. Another group of rich people were hardcore raiders themselves, who played in end-game raids and didn't need GDKP to buy anything. So to inflate the gold supply, that leaves only that portion of the 'tycoons' that accumulate their wealth for no other reason than eventually spend it on gear when the opportunity presents itself. I agree there will be people in this category. Don't think it will be a large group.



Now, as a person selling items, knowing that GDKP runs have started and that many more people are now wealthy... isn't the first instinct to increase prices of what one is selling? I'm not going to waste hours farming herbs if I can buy them with the gold I get from GDKP runs. And I will buy lots so I have enough consumables for the future. And many others will do the same. And then available market herbs amount will drop and prices will go up. And newcomers will do GDKP raids to get money as well so they can afford the things they need. One simple example.

What you describing here is not caused by the gold supply getting bigger, but because the supply of herbs dries up.... (yellow text). If the new raiders with increased wealth all think like you and stop their efforts in herbalism... Soon you can choke on your new riches, because there will nothing available in the AH to buy...

But, and that is correct, we have found a reason for concern here. Prices will go up if supply goes down and demand goes up. One of the most basic principles in economics.

Another principle is that people will jump into profitable markets.. Herbs go high? Many people who didn't bother before will start taking herbalism serious, either to sell them, or to use them for their own raids. People like me never gather stuff when prices are low, it's just easier to buy what you need and make your money with some trading at the side. But if the prices of raw materials get too high that is no longer feasible to do that and it will be time to pull out that herbalist...


Why do you keep saying "no" - what I stated is very logical way of reasoning about consequences. GDKP raids will eventually become a necessity if they are allowed a successful start, and lower-to-mid tier raiding scene will be a GDKP fest. "Raid in pugs to earn gold from others getting loot, wait a few weeks and then spend the money you earned to buy items so others can get your money, rinse and repeat. Keep doing GDKPs so that you can in future buy more gear that you desire so much. If you really want lots of gear fast, then keep farming outside of raiding as well so that you can spend more gold on more items." And of course I forgot to mention the 5% raid leader cut, which keeps pug leaders motivated to keep creating GDKP raids.

The 5% cut has no influence on anything in this discussion, it's just a motivation for the organizer. (and not all asked it, many just did it to farm that 2nd binding and split 100%)

The rest of this last paragraph is just an explanation of GDKP. Yes, this is what it is.

And now we come to "What's wrong with that? What's your problem with it?"... My problem is simply in the mentality shift where it all comes down to how much money you have acquired through any means, and promotion of such materialistic view of something as raiding. It damages many aspects of the game that I have mentioned in previous posts. It's not a game I want to play.

Fair enough. It's not for you. (hint, it's not for me either.) I always ended up in serious guilds on every server I have ever played on. Even while I am several steps below a player of your type on the 'hardcore-scale.' I love how things are well-organized and smooth in major guilds.

However I am not against GDKP . I think it's a natural process in the evolution of 'Pick UP Grouping' because it holds many advantages over the randomness in a pug. I acknowledge the disadvantages which I think can be controlled. If Kronos admins are able to suffocate most of the goldseller endeavours , the biggest concern (goldbuying to pay gdkp) will cease to apply.

The second proper concern was weakening of the guild community. I don't see this as a problem. Guilds will stay important for PVE and PVP. It's only the entry lvl raids that are affected. It will be a competition and quality guilds will survive.

I will repeat once more: ALL my arguments must be placed in a ripe AQ40-Naxx server environment.


I mean... why are we here playing on a vanilla realm? For most people the answer would be because things are damn hard to achieve (hard can be interpreted in many ways, whether genuinely difficult or just taking huge amount of time) and cutting corners isn't really a thing, so you gain a sense of accomplishment from the things you work for. But then certain people decide that they can get rich by simply "raid logging pugs" and taking their cut from all the gear that is being sold in their raids, and they attract people to join with the idea of getting gold for being there and letting others gain loot. Greed, greed and more greed.

People play to have fun. (I hope)

For many people, gearing up their alt for the umpteenth time in MC, are raid they have done 87 times before is not really fun. That's why on old servers gdkp is popular, because it is a efficient system.

You brought up a few good arguments before , but this last bit is severely flawed. For starters it smells like : 'I played my way and we had to work hard when the server was young, so I don't like the idea that others play in another way..' (read easier way)

It's not greed. The non buyers are trading their time for (game) money. They provide a service. Greed is when people post a 59 silver item for 59g , in the hope somebody doesn't pay attention...

A final point. Warsong was a server with a insane gold circulation, a lot of which was accumulated by cheating and never removed from the circulation. The feenix admin was a corrupt dictator (with narcissistic personality disorder) If I think back at Warsong GDKP I see huge amounts of gold exchanging hands. Items going for thousands of gold, extreme items going for tens of thousands. I have to remind myself that this is not a realistic scenario on a server with better anti cheating surveillance. I estimate a gdkp cut here on Kronos would be 50-75g .. a nice amount, but not a 'zomg, 3 raids and I can retire'....
 
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