Hunter Gear compilation, the math behind it

Hello,


I am trying to make it a bit easier for all of us to see what gear is the best for us. Therefore I did some research and came up with the following conclusion:


1 AP = 1 AP
1 Crit = +/-25 AP (according to Vipergodx/Hightower, if you find another source please share it)
1 Crit = 53 Agi, critvalue (not taking into account the ap you get from agi)
=> 1 Agi,critvalue = 1/53*25 = .47 AP
1 Agi = (2 + .47 ) * 1.1 (kings) = 2.72 AP


So now we can compare gear in this format (you have to include enchants):


Item 1
Ap value = Agi * 2.72 + Crit * 25 + AP


Item 2
Ap value = Agi * 2.72 + Crit * 25 + AP


The one with the higher total is the better item!


Hope this was usefull to you,


Regards,

I think you forgot to mention hit chance :wink:

tristan,

you just need 9 hit% in total on your gear
the rest you can compare with this set of rules.

Regards

Gimlis said:

tristan,

you just need 9 hit% in total on your gear
the rest you can compare with this set of rules.

Regards

Click to expand...

Yes! I was just mentioning it because it could be helpful if you mention how does 1% of hit rating while not capped affect your overall DPS :smile:, so you can priorize to get hit over other stats, or viceversa if the other stats are very high.

Maybe it's just me, but I must admit that doesn't make much sense the way you worded it.

healus said:

1 AP = 1 AP

Click to expand...

That's basically just the reflexive property of equality, the first thing you're taught on your first math class at school: A = A. Not sure why you put that there.

healus said:

1 Crit = +/-25 AP (according to Vipergodx/Hightower, if you find another source please share it)

Click to expand...

I'm not sure you can really establish an equivalence between crit chance and AP, if that's what you're suggesting. You can't really compare damage spikes with constant DPS that's increased by AP pretty straightforwardly.

healus said:

1 Crit = 53 Agi, critvalue (not taking into account the ap you get from agi)
=> 1 Agi,critvalue = 1/53*25 = .47 AP
1 Agi = (2 + .47 ) * 1.1 (kings) = 2.72 AP

Click to expand...

1 Agi = 1 MAP (Melee Attack Power) + 2 RAP (Ranged Attack Power). You gain 1 DPS every 14 RAP (for hunters, you just want to look at ranged AP), and that's the most reliable parameter when you need to compare weapons: the DPS increase.

healus said:

Item 1
Ap value = Agi * 2.72 + Crit * 25 + AP


Item 2
Ap value = Agi * 2.72 + Crit * 25 + AP

Click to expand...

What's the difference between Item 1 and Item 2 formulas?

In the end, the way I see it, the whole calculation revolves around an arbitrary value (that crit/AP equivalence, +/- 25) we have no clue where it comes from, statistically speaking.

Lets recap:

It doesn't matter what stat you compair it to, as long as it is the same so you can compare them. So here is chosen AP, which aint gonna be melee attack power since that wouldn't make sence, i guess melee hunter's among us probably left us in 2005.

The crit value can probably be static if you make a few million itterations and program a bossfight, since i'm not that handy in programming i don't really know how to do that but be my guest. (Bit like Mr Robot works now today).

And isn't it prety logical you use the same formula to compare 2 items, otherwise it doesn't make sence. So for example:

Item 1: Barbarous blade: (60ap +1 crit + 25agi enchant)

Score = 60 +25 +25* 2.72 = 152.9

Item 2: Huntsman's Harpoon (35 agi + 25 agi enchant)

Score = 60*2.72 = 163.1

So here the conclusion would be to take item 2 over item 1.

Hope that clearifies some stuff for you.

Regards,

Gimlis

Nah you would want Barbarous Blade without a second thought.

60 (R)AP and +1% crit is way better than 35 agi which is 70 RAP (and no crit bonus). As a ranged DPS you want to boost your damage output where your crit chance is a major source. You stack agility just for that, basically. So you don't need any abstruse formula nor bot-testing to tell that Barbarous Blade's:


plus the 1% crit bonus is much preferable to the Hunter's Harpoon's:


+4.2 DPS +1% crit >>>> +5.0 DPS.

Yeah, I agree that the formulas and calculations done in this post look way too simple. Many stats are very situational and become more or less valuable depending on the fight.

You forgot about Bok (for alliance) only working on agility, making Harpoon a bit better (and the best item in Surv)
And if crit was that great, every hunters would raid with the quest stave.

The math was already done, bis pre-raid items are the Dal rend, gl with explaining that to a melee.

Brochette,

Bok is added in (see 1.1 multiplier for kings).
Core Hound Tooth is defently Bis and worth it, but that is 1% crit and 20 ap, otherwise the blue 13 till epic 16 agi weapons are beter.

Moradin,

agi does gives crit => read the tooltip in your characterinventory.

Tristan,

what are your insights to make this a beter thread and maybe to get us all to more understanding.

regards,

was replying to Aurigon sorry.

Sorry my bad, misread that

Gimlis said:

Tristan,

what are your insights to make this a beter thread and maybe to get us all to more understanding.

Click to expand...

The first 3 things that come to my mind you should include and consider/explain are:

- Talents (yours and from the ones you get buffed)
- The rotation you use to deal damage (to check the damage type; physical, magical, etc.), and considering weapon speed if you include weapons in this calculations
- Item with special properties like procs, standard added dmg, etc., and how these properties affect your DPS

Tristan,

Spec: only thing worth mentioning is if you go survival and get 15% increased agi. You would always take the +30% crit damage in a 20/31/0 or in a 1/20/30 spec. But since surv is only viable if you get more as +/- 450 agi unbuffed (don't think to many people are at that point yet) since your own dps has to make up for the 100 ap buff trueshot aura gives on you and probably 4 other melees in your party, which make it worth a 500 ap buff (not taking in account pet even).

Rotation: All your damage is physical (except if you use arcane shot, but in most fights you would never wanna waste your mana on that). You basically use Aimed shot and multi shot in your rotation on CD and without blocking any autoshots.

Special abilities: The values given are consider for raiding so expecting all buffs and debuffs, which just leaves use trinkets which you can swap in and use and swap out using FD. (many other threaths made about this).

Regards,

"1 Crit = +/-25 AP" can't be right by the way. Because the benefit of 1% crit depends of your gear.

More you have crit, less you benefit from it. Roughly at 0% crit, 1% crit increase you overall dps by 1.3% (decreasing each time you add one)

14RAP is 1 dps.
Hunter is hit capped.
Spec is MM

Now i spare the math but at 20% crit and 200 dps :
For 1% crit, your damage will increase by 1.03%
To get 1.03% dps with 200dps (=202,06dps) you need 2.06*14 rap = 28.84 RAP
So at 20% crit and 200dps => 1% crit = 28.84 RAP

For 30% crit and 200dps : 1crit increase your dps by 0.93%
So 200dps +.93% = 201.86 dps => 1.86*14rap = 26 RAP
in Fine 1% crit = 26 RAP at 30% crit and 200 dps

So as you can see, there is no rule : everything depend of your actual gear.

Brochette,

Thanks, i would love to see the math though!

Since you can get:
5% crit buff + RAP from onyxia
5% Crit + 15 Stats from sunflowers from Felwood
2% Crit + 25 Agi from moongoose pot
25 agi from Buff in blasted lands
10 agi from food
= 12% crit + 75 agi => you can easily reach inbetween 30 to 40% crit (even blue pre raid bis geared).

I agree with you that you can't stick one exact value to it but it should be around there.

regards,

You dont gain RAP from Ony Buff

To make it simple we would admit that each shot is 100 damage and hunter is hit capped.

The difference between 30% crit and 31% crit is as follow on 100 hit.
70 normal hit*100dmg+30(crit)*2.3(bonus)*100dmg= 13900 damage
then for 31% crit
69*100+31*2.3*100= 14030 damage

So the difference in damage betwen 30% and 31% crit is :

14030-13900/13900*100 = 0.935%

I dont have the time, nor the skill to do a graph on excel but you could do this for every crit. 0->1 1->2 2->3 etc

Voilà.

Brochette said:

14030-13900/13900*100 = 0.935%

Click to expand...

(14030-13900)/13900*100 = 0.935%

Fixed that for you :wink:


And yes, the dmg. increase that you get from critical chance is not lineal, so for 1% more crit (32%) the damage difference would be:
(14160-14030)/14030*100 = 0.926%


If we compare this to the difference between 99% and 100% crit:

(23000-22870)/22870*100 = 0.568%

So, the more crit chance you have, the less damage you gain per 1% extra crit chance.

This seems to be a good source for information on the subject... assumed its data and formulas are reliable, accurate and true to vanilla.

Gimlis said:

Tristan,

what are your insights to make this a beter thread and maybe to get us all to more understanding.

regards,

Click to expand...

I am not Tristan but will give my thoughts: To make it a better thread you need to work on your skills in language . Your opening post might be spot on (I haven't analysed it enough to know for sure) or be wrong, but it is very hard for the reader to grasp what exactly is going on because you wrote it in a fuzzy way.

Anyway I my 'secret' leveling char might be a hunter so I will try to dig up some old info on this subject.

Ok I made this calculation for harpoon and blade.

The tough part is the crit to dps conversion. How much does that extra crit help you in the end? As people have pointed out already it is a dynamic thing, the more crit you have the less each extra crit will help.
the calculation below only shows the amount of crit you get, not how much dps that crit gives. it also shows how much dps increase you get from the RAP. SO to conclude what item is better you have to add those up, increase in crit + increase in dps.

AGI = agility
C = Crit from gear
CA = Crit from Agility (formula AGI / 53 )
CT = Crit Total ( C + CA)
AP = Attack power from gear (if any)
RAP = Total ranged attack power (formula AP + 2*AGI )
DPS = increase in dps from RAP only ( formula RAP / 14)

Example (all gear enchanted with max AGI: enchants )








So the Blade looks better because it has only 10 RAP less and 0,34 crit extra. So here we are back at. how much RAP = 1 crit? I bet it is more than 3*10=30 (3*0,34 is about 1 crit)

But. Lets include the pally buff Blessing of kings. Agility goes 10% up

This gives the Harpoon a better boost. It;s agi goes up by 6 and that increases the RAP and the crit score. The blade only up by 2,5 agility.
The difference in crit goes down from 0,34 to 0,26 and the RAP increases from 10 to 17.

Now, we have 4*17 = 68 is roughly 4*0,26 1 crit (1,04 crit technically) Things look a bit better for the harpoon.

Maybe some talent trees complicate things further.

I found one link from 2006 to a hunter spreadsheet which looked like it would answer all our questions and more. http://web.archive.org/web/20061230182844/http://www.tkasomething.com/HunterSimulator.zip

A quick look: ZOMG how complicated is that! Too much for little ol' me. Some brainiac go download this excel sheet and report your research please.

Dear Muneca,

The link from the spreadsheet you found helped me out a great deal. Although its a lot of trouble to fill it all in, it finally gives me more prospective on the gear i should equip!

Regards,

Gimlis (a happy hunter)