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    TwinStar team

BG Que - Solution

Cr0wL0ck

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Joined
Aug 23, 2014
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162
#1
We all know that BG que can be long and the primary cause lies with too low an amount of alliance quing, so how about doing what blizzard did ?

Permit Horde to fight Horde and in the unlikely event Alliance to fight Alliance... of course it should favor putting alliance against horde but still this would reduce que time significantly regardless of what faction is interrested in pvp or how population is placed that day/hour.

Factions are still independent when it comes down to standing so that won't be affected and people chatting with their adversary is not different either however you could make it so if horde fight horde or alliance fight alliance their language to the opposing side is seen and understood as if they where their race's opposite kinda like orb of deception. But no need as people can already make both factions on same account or make a low level alt that resides in the capital as afk as its allowed by the rules you can converse with ur enemy already.
 
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nimeralos

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Aug 26, 2014
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Moscow
#2
Factions are still independent when it comes down to standing so that won't be affected
? That definitely will be affected. It'll make PvP less grindy and more competetive.

Other than that, that'd leave an awful taste in many mouths, but would help with the que times. Also, might be difficult to implement.
 

Sunderwear

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Apr 7, 2018
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46
#3
Yeah, no. As I said before horde needs to start being part of the solution rather than griping about their problem. The game is not BattlegroundCraft. You willingly joined the faction that this CONSISTENTLY happens since vanilla itself. Deal with it.

I would rather you pushed for one time faction transfers.
 

Cr0wL0ck

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Aug 23, 2014
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162
#5
? That definitely will be affected. It'll make PvP less grindy and more competetive.

Other than that, that'd leave an awful taste in many mouths, but would help with the que times. Also, might be difficult to implement.
First of all if the server had over population or just a perfect balance between factions at least in regards to PvP then there would be no difference from this suggestion and the actual pvp, and what do you mean by grindy ? all that happens is battlegrounds that are currently being delayed for 45-90 minutes would occur within 10-15 minutes instead.

Also what is wrong with making pvp competitive ? competition is literally what pvp is all about...

Currently if 20 alliance wish to pvp and 60 horde wish to pvp we get 2 battlegrounds at a time and the remaining 40 people wait in line for those alliance groups to play 2 more games before they get to play, it would be more efficient allowing the 40 players to battle eachother at that time thus forming a total of 4 games and less que time.

Free transfer to alliance ? First of all it would be bad making it free as u do not know how many would transfer at once if there are no restraints, secondly every item and quest needs to be converted to the counterpart otherwise you will end up with some people being able to complete the same quest twice or being able to hold on to items that can only be obtained by the other faction. I am not against the idea however its application here would be wrong as the population is currently very well balanced except for the alliance being a bit scared of pvp, if you simply transfer 10-20% of horde to alliance like this there wiull be another issue.

Yes you could set a limit to how many can transfer and under specific rules and being monitored but it would take a lot of extra time doing so, it is a solution best reserved for when one faction suddenly has 60% while the other has 40% etc.
 

Rockmaster

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Joined
Dec 25, 2014
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170
#6
First of all if the server had over population or just a perfect balance between factions at least in regards to PvP then there would be no difference from this suggestion and the actual pvp, and what do you mean by grindy ? all that happens is battlegrounds that are currently being delayed for 45-90 minutes would occur within 10-15 minutes instead.

Also what is wrong with making pvp competitive ? competition is literally what pvp is all about...

Currently if 20 alliance wish to pvp and 60 horde wish to pvp we get 2 battlegrounds at a time and the remaining 40 people wait in line for those alliance groups to play 2 more games before they get to play, it would be more efficient allowing the 40 players to battle eachother at that time thus forming a total of 4 games and less que time.

Free transfer to alliance ? First of all it would be bad making it free as u do not know how many would transfer at once if there are no restraints, secondly every item and quest needs to be converted to the counterpart otherwise you will end up with some people being able to complete the same quest twice or being able to hold on to items that can only be obtained by the other faction. I am not against the idea however its application here would be wrong as the population is currently very well balanced except for the alliance being a bit scared of pvp, if you simply transfer 10-20% of horde to alliance like this there wiull be another issue.

Yes you could set a limit to how many can transfer and under specific rules and being monitored but it would take a lot of extra time doing so, it is a solution best reserved for when one faction suddenly has 60% while the other has 40% etc.
The biggest problem with free transfers is that you dont know how many ppl who transfer sctually do pvp regurarely...
 

Cr0wL0ck

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Aug 23, 2014
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162
#7
exactly, and if you manually stop the free transfer once you get close to what you assume is enough then you will have guilds that only got half their members over or friends that got seperated and these people will sound as if you owe them a free transfer. Let us not forget to mention currently factions are evenly balanced with +- 3% depending on time & day, those who participate in pvp also participate in pve so it will affect raid guilds a lot such a sudden move.

lets not forget quests that have not yet been completed like for example a player is halfways done with the onyxia quest on horde and transfers to alliance or a couple quests are not converted as they have no opposing quest so suddenly an alliance player can hand in for horde rep ?

Vanilla has a lot of quests, chances that a mid-chain quest or a low level quest from somewhere is overlooked is there not to mention the time and to find the exact quest that is the opposite of another, people could end up with 2x Blackhand's Breath as an example but it could also be much less severe although still it would be something very problematic later on. Let's say you are doing your class quest and you jump, either you can do it again getting a duplicate of what u learned of nothing bugs up or u might not be able to do it at all anymore.

in short faction transfer brings with it a lot of trouble unless using a lot of time on solving it, the issues horde vs horde could cause would be them ending up as friendly vs friendly unable to battle, of course such would be fixed before it even gets live and the other case would be people using /yell to insult eachother which can just be disabled in battlegrounds or converted to another factions language. A lot more realistic to do and it would not affect server pop balance or quest & items.
 

Rockmaster

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Joined
Dec 25, 2014
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170
#8
I don't know, it just feels wrong to battle horde vs. horde.... the main problem is that alot of ppl see pvp as some kind of business or work. On my server back in retail vanilla we had hour long ques as horde as well because it was like 60:40 horde. Nothing you could do about it besides, duelling in durotar while in que. We pvped to pvp first and foremost and not to get gear. I like the .join commands because i can do some farming while in que, but i would prefer it disabled to get some duels going.
 

qqqqqqqqq

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Aug 23, 2017
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23
#10
This. Is. Brilliant idea. Topkek. Let horde scum kill each other. Can we also add spectrator feature to such bgs to watch them do this and /popcorn meanwhile, place bets probably? This solution would on the same time rid alliance of these beasts camping lowbies and give us some entertainment. Besides knowing that these creatures are so low and cheap as to kill the likes of them just in order to satisfy their hunger for ranks is great by itself. Love it.
 

Phobochai

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Jun 8, 2018
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5
#14
We have been discussing PvP situation internally. Update SoonTM
The solution is simple if you understand the original problem.

Even in 2005 retail vanilla, horde pvp imbalance was a thing. Blizzard tried to solved it by doing cross-realm BGs, but it did not work, all it does is expand the pool of players but it did not alter the ratio of players.

What is the fundamental problem?

Too many pvpers roll Horde and not enough pvpers roll Alliance.

Why?

Because there is an originally design flaw with the racial abilities. Blizzard had thought the more unappealing or "ugly" horde races would be a major barrier for many players so they had to give them relatively OP racial abilities (mainly WotF & Hardiness) to compensate to attract more players.

It turned out much more effective than they anticipated, resulting in the pvp population imbalance which exists all the way up to Wrath of the Lich King, where one major change fixed that, Humans got their racial modified to Every Man for Him/Herself which removes CC.

To ignore this fundamental problem/solution, and try to band-aid it with other fixes will incur harsh unintended consequences. As you know, your join BG everywhere command has a nasty unintended consequence already.

The suggestion of Horde v Horde pvp is ridiculous and would destroy the facade of vanilla and the lore of Warcraft. We already have same faction pvp, it's called duels.

The suggestion of a one time faction transfer places a ton of work for the staff to sync the characters, reputation and equivalent quests etc, and it causes issues which are mentioned in this thread already.

The first step should be the removal of join BG command everywhere, period. This is a quality of life idea that isn't vanilla and backfired big time. This would cause extra burden on horde doing BGs and roaming around farming HK of level 50s leveling, with most places camped by groups constantly.

The second step should be a temporary (1-2 month) exp/rep bonus for those who already have Horde 50-60 characters who decide to roll an Alliance alt. This ensures they get back to where they want to for pvp quicker than a fresh re-roll, a really strong incentive for already established Horde players to rebalance the pvp population themselves. This leads to players being the solution, and a more natural one, increasing the alliance pvp pop so that the wpvp & BGs even out, shortening the queues and we still get Horde vs Alliance fights, not rubbish like HvH.

In the longer term, devs should definitely think about implementing the updated Human racials because that was blizzard admitting they made a mistake originally in how important racial abilities are to players and it took them several years to fix it, but they did.
 

lunchyb

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Joined
Feb 10, 2018
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24
#15
The second step should be a temporary (1-2 month) exp/rep bonus for those who already have Horde 50-60 characters who decide to roll an Alliance alt. This ensures they get back to where they want to for pvp quicker than a fresh re-roll, a really strong incentive for already established Horde players to rebalance the pvp population themselves. This leads to players being the solution, and a more natural one, increasing the alliance pvp pop so that the wpvp & BGs even out, shortening the queues and we still get Horde vs Alliance fights, not rubbish like HvH.
The direction you're going isn't bad at all, but this probably isn't enough incentive to switch factions, let alone keep playing the faction you didn't choose in the first place after the two-month period. I would just use this to more quickly level a pally or that alt I use to check the Alliance banks, then go back to playing Horde. I'd bet many wouldn't switch at all.

Increased honor gains for Alliance isn't a great solution either, but nothing else really comes to mind to incentivize more of them to PvP more regularly.
 

Sunderwear

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Joined
Apr 7, 2018
Likes
46
#16
The solution is simple if you understand the original problem.

Even in 2005 retail vanilla, horde pvp imbalance was a thing. Blizzard tried to solved it by doing cross-realm BGs, but it did not work, all it does is expand the pool of players but it did not alter the ratio of players.

What is the fundamental problem?

Too many pvpers roll Horde and not enough pvpers roll Alliance.

Why?

Because there is an originally design flaw with the racial abilities. Blizzard had thought the more unappealing or "ugly" horde races would be a major barrier for many players so they had to give them relatively OP racial abilities (mainly WotF & Hardiness) to compensate to attract more players.

It turned out much more effective than they anticipated, resulting in the pvp population imbalance which exists all the way up to Wrath of the Lich King, where one major change fixed that, Humans got their racial modified to Every Man for Him/Herself which removes CC.

To ignore this fundamental problem/solution, and try to band-aid it with other fixes will incur harsh unintended consequences. As you know, your join BG everywhere command has a nasty unintended consequence already.

The suggestion of Horde v Horde pvp is ridiculous and would destroy the facade of vanilla and the lore of Warcraft. We already have same faction pvp, it's called duels.

The suggestion of a one time faction transfer places a ton of work for the staff to sync the characters, reputation and equivalent quests etc, and it causes issues which are mentioned in this thread already.

The first step should be the removal of join BG command everywhere, period. This is a quality of life idea that isn't vanilla and backfired big time. This would cause extra burden on horde doing BGs and roaming around farming HK of level 50s leveling, with most places camped by groups constantly.

The second step should be a temporary (1-2 month) exp/rep bonus for those who already have Horde 50-60 characters who decide to roll an Alliance alt. This ensures they get back to where they want to for pvp quicker than a fresh re-roll, a really strong incentive for already established Horde players to rebalance the pvp population themselves. This leads to players being the solution, and a more natural one, increasing the alliance pvp pop so that the wpvp & BGs even out, shortening the queues and we still get Horde vs Alliance fights, not rubbish like HvH.

In the longer term, devs should definitely think about implementing the updated Human racials because that was blizzard admitting they made a mistake originally in how important racial abilities are to players and it took them several years to fix it, but they did.

I like the cut of your jib. Well thought out and executed. Hopefully it does not fall on deaf ears.

Since the vanilla thing is a horse already out of the stable, part of me wishes we had TBC but capped at L60 and the portal unopened. That way both factions would at least have all classes available to them. Would not make up for the racials of course.
 

Topmong

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Joined
Apr 11, 2016
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181
Location
Finland
#17
The racials work differently in TBC.
Because there is an originally design flaw with the racial abilities. Blizzard had thought the more unappealing or "ugly" horde races would be a major barrier for many players so they had to give them relatively OP racial abilities (mainly WotF & Hardiness) to compensate to attract more players.

It turned out much more effective than they anticipated, resulting in the pvp population imbalance which exists all the way up to Wrath of the Lich King, where one major change fixed that, Humans got their racial modified to Every Man for Him/Herself which removes CC.
Yea, Escape Artist and Stoneform are such bad racials. Fear Ward and Desperate prayer were also such good spells that they decided to give them out to every priest race post vanilla, although FW had to be heavily nerfed.

Undead are so popular because people who made popular movies in vanilla happened to be undead. Of course you have to make an undead mage with Vurtne hair to play some wpvp, even if Escape Artist is the better racial for mage 1vX.

Humans getting Every man for himself in Wrath made them OP, or the best race choice most of the time because it freed up another trinket slot, so everyone could have two damage trinkets, or bauble and another trinket, etc.
 

Phobochai

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Joined
Jun 8, 2018
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5
#18
The racials work differently in TBC.
Yea, Escape Artist and Stoneform are such bad racials. Fear Ward and Desperate prayer were also such good spells that they decided to give them out to every priest race post vanilla, although FW had to be heavily nerfed.

Undead are so popular because people who made popular movies in vanilla happened to be undead. Of course you have to make an undead mage with Vurtne hair to play some wpvp, even if Escape Artist is the better racial for mage 1vX.

Humans getting Every man for himself in Wrath made them OP, or the best race choice most of the time because it freed up another trinket slot, so everyone could have two damage trinkets, or bauble and another trinket, etc.
The strongest CC in the game are Poly, Fear, Charm and Stuns. Everything else still allows the character to act and react. Such as roots/freeze that EA removes.

WotF breaks and gives immunity (!!) to Fear/Charm. Hardiness is 25% chance to resist any stun mechanic. Both have been since actual vanilla, considered very strong PvP racials.

Escape Artist is 2nd tier, it's good vs roots, but no immunity means it can be re-applied instantly, and generally, roots is 2nd tier CC, because the player can still act, an example: throw a grenade to incapacitate and use items, cast spells, etc.

Stoneform is good against abilities that can be reapplied, ie. poisons and bleeds, and really is only great against one CC: Rogue Blind.

Consider WotF is great vs Warlock & Priest fear and even Warrior's Intimidating Shout, and succubus Charm.

If you think EA & Stoneform are superior racials, you're the minority. Go on any pvp server horde faction, ask them why they picked horde, many will say its because of OP racials of UD & Orc.

As I've said, the pvp population imbalance didn't get fixed until Humans got their own racial trinket. Yes it's OP, and yes that's why the problem was solved because Alliance finally gets an OP racial that Horde got.
 

Rockmaster

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Dec 25, 2014
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170
#19
If this forshadows the discussions on wow classic servers i am curios how blizzard will react to it. Oh they wont. .join command is custom and is debatable but everything is like changing racials or boosting one faction is nothing the kronos admins will ever consider. I play here long enough to know that.
 

Phobochai

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Jun 8, 2018
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5
#20
If this forshadows the discussions on wow classic servers i am curios how blizzard will react to it. Oh they wont. .join command is custom and is debatable but everything is like changing racials or boosting one faction is nothing the kronos admins will ever consider. I play here long enough to know that.
Definitely, I understand any major post xpac changes will not be vanilla anymore.

But they should remove their .join command, it exacerbates the problem and IS the major reason for the negativity on this server. Obviously the instant queues on Alliance isn't an incentive enough for pvpvers if it's just so easy to farm HKs with .join anywhere.
 
Joined
Apr 7, 2018
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#21
So we had some meaningful PVP near and at Grom'Gol yesterday. Then the L60 babysitters showed up.
Part of me HAD to wonder if .join wasn't a thing, if those babysitters would not have shown up. So much for the "alliance don't want to fight" crap.
 

Cr0wL0ck

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Aug 23, 2014
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162
#22
Sorry to spoil that fantasy of yours but traveling as high lvl to help out a guildie was a thing even in the past and especially STV where you can fish...

.join has nothing to do with where the level 60s are, if anything it removes them from a zone temporarily for up to half an hour each time it pops. Let's say someone sits and camps ur pal, you have time you go there, after done you still itch to tease people then you move on and kill for awhile until your boredom ends.

I have seen groups of players camping a single individual and seen 60s camping a single individual and that in every zone where factions encounter eachother often... If you tried vanilla back in the day or even tbc you would also know that is completely unrelated to the .join feature.

If anything it is more related to premades taking up the bg space so people don't wish to que as its a loss anyways so why not farm honor in the world or get back at others for the annoyance you accumulated fighting premades so let others know the feeling etc.

Also what negativity ? they can use .join or the vendor there is no difference aside from without it pvp is reduced significantly, this increases the que time by quite a lot and during that time they will go hunting for kills and don't say they have no HS, portal or flight paths or not enough time for it as they have 1-2 hours at times even with the command so without the command world pvp would defenitely grow...

world pvp is something people have been whining about since back then and it has not changed throughout history for PvP servers, when you join a PvP server you already know what to expect. Take a look at retail... people still kill on sight there and that regardless of level, only reason its any less on retail is retail has BG & dungeon que and there are many times more maps thus finding or camping low levels is next to impossible.

If you find yourself being camped why the heck don't you que up ? true the que might take a bit but once it pops and you accept the camper or who hunted you has no way of tracking you and youi can get some honor/rep & marks. Reason you cry so excessively much is not due to world pvp or .join but merely being unable to adjust to a PvP server...

They can que from anywhere yes but they can also que from city and then move out, that only makes a 5 min. difference and they will go to where they want to regardless and if they want to hunt you down they will still hunt you down just take a look at K1 initially... .join simply improved bg attendance instead of people desperately hunting world for the same amount of honor as their que wouldnt pop within a short enough time.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Dec 25, 2014
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170
#23
Sorry to spoil that fantasy of yours but traveling as high lvl to help out a guildie was a thing even in the past and especially STV where you can fish...

.join has nothing to do with where the level 60s are, if anything it removes them from a zone temporarily for up to half an hour each time it pops. Let's say someone sits and camps ur pal, you have time you go there, after done you still itch to tease people then you move on and kill for awhile until your boredom ends.

I have seen groups of players camping a single individual and seen 60s camping a single individual and that in every zone where factions encounter eachother often... If you tried vanilla back in the day or even tbc you would also know that is completely unrelated to the .join feature.

If anything it is more related to premades taking up the bg space so people don't wish to que as its a loss anyways so why not farm honor in the world or get back at others for the annoyance you accumulated fighting premades so let others know the feeling etc.

Also what negativity ? they can use .join or the vendor there is no difference aside from without it pvp is reduced significantly, this increases the que time by quite a lot and during that time they will go hunting for kills and don't say they have no HS, portal or flight paths or not enough time for it as they have 1-2 hours at times even with the command so without the command world pvp would defenitely grow...

world pvp is something people have been whining about since back then and it has not changed throughout history for PvP servers, when you join a PvP server you already know what to expect.
I totally agree with you. I see only one change that might help against the griefing (if it is actually that bad). Make guards in low lvl areas stronger and some elite npcs in high lvl camps agressive against other faction. Also make flightmasters stronger. On k1 it was pretty easy to kill a Flightmaster solo as a rogue. They should be atleast so strong that you need a tank healer dps to kill it.

These changes will not slow down world pvp, but it gives attacked players some safe spots were they can regen or even fly away if needed. In addition, maybe increase the aggro range of guards.
 

Cr0wL0ck

New Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2014
Likes
162
#24
Yes buffing npc's or turning them civilian would help, however if buffing then i would recommend strongly to give them an ability to free themselves from slow or root once every X second's along with some movement speed. as they get killed mainly from kiting, in the end they should still be killable then but just be more painfull to solo. The civilian status would work as an ultimate detterent and should most likely not be used as dying npc's is still part of the game.
 
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