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Big TheoryCrafting Thread

Psojed

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#51
It was not stickied for 2,5 years, it will be useful during the beta test, but I believe it can stay non-sticky :wink:
 

Nilzzz

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#53
"Attacks from the back are thought by many to prevent blocks and parries, but in fact they still occur against mobs but appear as MISS results instead. Players cannot dodge, parry, or block attacks from the back. Mobs that dodge display as a miss. Mobs that parry display miss but still get the haste increase provided by a parry. Blocks actually becomes a real miss, meaning all of the damage is avoided (instead of some of it getting through and only some being blocked)."

I got a question on the glancing blow section of the wowwiki article. Is it really true that mobbs can parry and block from behind but it is counted as a miss? That's the first time I ever heard or read about this and that would mean that everybody everywhere is doing wrong positioning in fights. Because EVERY meelee stands at the back of a mobb while attacking in every raid I had been in. But standing in front of the mobb would mean more damage for you since the block doesn't get a miss but only a little bit reduced.
So what do you think of that statement of wowwiki?
 

Psojed

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#54
For those wondering, the statement Nilzzz quoted comes from this page http://www.wowwiki.com/Weapon_skill?oldid=349298, the Crit Cap section.

Wowwiki is written by players, and this is a fine example of something written wrong. On the same page, but a bit lower, there are examples of Crit Cap:
"Dual wield full raid buffs (including mongoose and elemental sharpening stones) example from the back:

+0 hit +50% crit: 5.6% dodge, 24.6% miss, 40% glancing blow, 29.8% crit
= 20.2% of your crit rate did nothing
+6 hit +40% crit: 5.6% dodge, 18.6% miss, 40% glancing blow, 35.8% crit
= 4.2% of your crit rate did nothing
+15hit +33% crit: 5.6% dodge, 9.6% miss, 40% glancing blow, 33% crit, 12% hit
= no +crit was wasted in this example"
Notice that in the "example from the back", there is no mention of parry or block. The miss rate is equal to the basic miss rate of a dual wielder, as mentioned before, contradicting the part quoted by Nilzzz.

We all know that mobs cannot parry and block from behind. Wowwiki authors knew it aswell, because looking at the same time frame - 30th November 2006 - on a different wiki page reveals this statement http://www.wowwiki.com/Attack_table?oldid=347969
"Realizing his stupidity, Elliot maneuvers around behind the boss mob to continue his attacks. From behind, a mob cannot parry or block, so Elliot's attack table now looks like this:"

Result Chance "Die Roll"
Miss 24.40% 0.01 - 24.40
Dodge 5.40% 24.41 - 29.80
Parry 0% —
Block 0% —
Glancing Blow 40.00% 29.81 - 69.80
Crushing Blow 0% —
Critical 30.00% 69.81 - 99.80
ordinary hit 0.20% 99.81 - 100.00"
This statement and table was later modified several times to reflect changes of newer patches, but the part saying "a mob cannot parry or block" was never modified.
 

lobbanid

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#55
Bumping this thread, Really good thread!

I was just wondering, me and a friend was on PTR now during ZG release. We managed to get around 4k soul fire crits with the best availible gear and enchants + full consumables and mostly spec in fire.

Though this old video of one of my IRL friend back in retail vanilla wow, got critted for 5k with a Soul Fire. He got in contact with the Warlock and he actually recorded it, so he sent the video to him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gec6MUtl00E

So how was that possible with that gear? 6 sec cast times must have had higher coefficent from Spell Damage?

I dont know, thought id post it here so some bright mind maybe could explain this. :cool2:

Thanks for this post, big help!
 

Lharts

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#56
Soulfire: 703-882
T2 gear: ~500sp
ZHC: 204 or 280 sp, depending on patch (guess 204)

Total: ~700sp

With all modifiers and a recklessness from the warrior, 5k is absolutely possible.


Spells had 100% scaling at max, deal with it :p
 

Psojed

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#57
Yes, the reason is the target. Warriors take extra damage, because they suc.... errr I mean because they have Berserker Stance. :wink:
 

lobbanid

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#58
Thanks for anwsering so quick guys! I had totaly forgotten Berserker Stance.. I am unsure he popped recklesness though, because he came in surprising him with seduction. Im gonna do some more testing! But with 30% extra damage taken from zerker stance and reckless, 5k is totaly possible as you said.
 

Lharts

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#59
At a closer look, judging from the spell icons and the weapon he has equipped, this looks like patch 2.0.
 

Muneca

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#60
Question about resistances.


The link on resistances given in this thread talks about lvl 50 spells, bosses and (fairly) high rates of resistance. Like 100 or 250 resistance to <fire> gives a certain % of chance values to resist a fire spell.

However, what does a tiny bit of resistance do at lower level? Take for example

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=9434

Elemental Raiment
Binds when equipped

Chest

Cloth


59 Armor
+5 Fire Resistance
+5 Nature Resistance
+5 Frost Resistance
+5 Shadow Resistance
+5 Arcane Resistance
Durability 80 / 80
Requires Level 36
Equip: Increases damage and healing done by magical spells and effects by up to 21.

I am wearing this now at lvl 36. (For the spelldamage part obviously) I get the feeling I am resisting more spells, even with only like 10 resistance vs a certain school of magic. But how much more? Or is it just a feeling that is not backed by real numbers. What exactly does 10 fire resistance do compared to 0 resistance.

Why would blizzard make low lvl items with small resistance numbers if it does (almost) nothing? So maybe it does something, but I don;t know what.

The classes with magical armor like mage , warlock also get sometimes options that raise their resistance(s) a tiny bit. Here I also always wondered what it actually does.
 

Psojed

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#62
The resistances apply in the same way on any level. If you had level 10, apply 10 fire resistance and you should get similar numbers as there are for the level 50.
 

DarkStorm

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#63
So for someone who isnt a master theorycrafter like the other people in this thread, what was the conclusion on spellcrit from int for paladins? Is it 29.5 or 60 int per crit?
 

Smoker

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#64
Level-based resistance: ~24 resistance to all schools (including holy)
This cannot be reduced in any way, however it applies only to Non-binary spells: Fireball, Shadowbolt etc.
Level-based resistance has no effect on Binary spells, such as Counterspell, Fear, Dispel Magic, Frostbolt (!)

Mob-specific resistance: ranges from 0-300 (holy resistance always 0)
The specific resistance and the monsters level-resistance added together cannot be higher than 300. (=75% reduction=cap). This resistance affects both binary and non-binary spells.


Example
A lvl 63 monster has 24 level resistance and happens to have 50 shadow resistance
Its shadow reduction is ((24+50)/300)*0,75 = 18,5% average damage resisted

Now the warlock puts curse of shadows, and the 50 shadow resistance is reduced to 0 (resistance cannot go below zero). The level based resistance cannot be reduced and remains unchanged.
The resistance of the mob is now 24 level resistance and 0 shadow resistance.
It's shadow reduction is ((24+0)/300)*0,75 = 6%

Now the level-resistance only affects non-binary spells, which means that 6% reduction is going to be spread out over partial resists. For example out of 100 shadowbolts, 4 may do 50% less damage while 16 of them does 25% less damage, for a total average of 6% damage loss.


Resistance in current Content
Bosses generally have 0 specific-resistances to all schools, and then some are immune to for example Fire. Curse of Shadow and Elements in this case only provide the 10% damage increase and does not actually reduce any resistance. The partial resists still happen ofcourse, as explained above, due to the level-resistance.

Resistance in later content
Around mid-aq 40, bosses start to have specific-resistance to all schools. The actual amount varies but the reports claim around 150. At this point the Curses reduces that by 75, and Spell Penetration is needed to reduce the remaining 75. Luckily this content is also where a lot of items start dropping with this stat, and 10 spell penetration will be worth more than 1 Hit by quite a bit.

Back in 2006, raiders in naxxramas were complaining that tier 3 items had spell penetration on it, while you would see partial resists even when you thought you had reduced the boss resistance to 0. It was considered a "joke" and a "worthless" stat at the time.

You can set Boss Resistance and Spell Penetration in my Dmg calculator here: Spelldamage Calculators
 
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Losse

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#65
Really, really nice spreadsheet and explanation. I've always wondered why I got partial resists with lock curse the odd time I boomkinned in ZG.
 

tristan

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#66
Hey Psojed,
I wanted to ask you if you have any info about the exact hit chance (or miss chance) formula for melee (not dual wielding).

I found a formula on an old Peenix post, but i'm not sure if it is right, or if it is the way it is calculated here on Kronos. The formula is:

"If the difference between the mob's Defense Skill and your Weapon Skill is less than or equal to 10 then the formula for calculating your base miss rate against that mob is:
5% + (Mob's Defense Skill - Your Weapon Skill) * 0.1%


If the difference between the mob's Defense Skill and your Weapon Skill is greater than 10, then the formula for calculating your base miss rate against that mob is:
6% + (Mob's Defense Skill - Yuur Weapon Skill - 10) * 0.4%"


Is it the same info you have? Because I can't find anything about hit caps on your main post of this thread.

Thank you!
 

Smooglab

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#67
Hey Psojed,
I wanted to ask you if you have any info about the exact hit chance (or miss chance) formula for melee (not dual wielding).

I found a formula on an old Peenix post, but i'm not sure if it is right, or if it is the way it is calculated here on Kronos. The formula is:

"If the difference between the mob's Defense Skill and your Weapon Skill is less than or equal to 10 then the formula for calculating your base miss rate against that mob is:
5% + (Mob's Defense Skill - Your Weapon Skill) * 0.1%


If the difference between the mob's Defense Skill and your Weapon Skill is greater than 10, then the formula for calculating your base miss rate against that mob is:
6% + (Mob's Defense Skill - Yuur Weapon Skill - 10) * 0.4%"


Is it the same info you have? Because I can't find anything about hit caps on your main post of this thread.

Thank you!
+2.5 weaponskill = +1% hit
 
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#69
in your Attack Power Coefficient you forgot to mention that 14 Attack Power = 1 Damage Seal of Command.

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Seal_of_Command_(old)?oldid=316746
Revision as of 08:38, November 9, 2006

14 AP = 1 Damage Per Hit

http://web.archive.org/web/20130512143339/http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t6569-paladin_math/


Weapon damage = [Avg. Weapon damage] + [AP/14] * WAS = WDPS * WAS + AP/14 * WAS = WAS * (AP/14 + WDPS)

Also your Parry Calculations are wrong

http://web.archive.org/web/20061115012336/http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic.php?pid=156311

June 14th, 2006 at 7:46AM


Here you would see that each attack has been reduced down to 1+- Second every time the user Parry no matter if 3.5 weapon speed or 1.8 weapon speed.
 
Last edited:

vido

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#70
There is a specific order in which miss/parry/block take precedence over crit/hit/crushing blows which is very important with regards to block knocking crits off the attack table after normal hits and crushing blows for example (which is a huge game changer for warriors and gearing for def cap).


http://wow.gamepedia.com/Melee_mitigation
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Attack_table
http://wow.allakhazam.com/wiki/hit_table_(wow)
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Block
http://www.icyvpn.com/12610/
Every source I've seen so far gives the same order of precedence in the attack table and some of these sources suggest that mob special abilities could follow a two roll table similar to players, resulting in blocked critical hits.


Also the two roll special attack table is well documented: http://web.archive.org/web/20130209...rior_fury_compendium/#Using_Execute_after_20%


In there is also explained how the parry haste mechanic in great detail, while you're explanation wasn't far off, this expands upon it.
 

turinpt

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#71
You guys should refrain from using information from old wikis and forum posts, they can be wildly innacurate and were based on the Blizzard servers.
Especially concerning the melee calculations, there never was any blue post detailing all the formulas like casters had. All the numbers you see are the result of hitting stuff thousands of times and recording the data.

We're on a private server based on an open source emulator, we can look at the code and find out the exact mechanics for everything, and when in doubt we can ask the Kronos devs if they modified them.

"If the difference between the mob's Defense Skill and your Weapon Skill is less than or equal to 10 then the formula for calculating your base miss rate against that mob is:
5% + (Mob's Defense Skill - Your Weapon Skill) * 0.1%

If the difference between the mob's Defense Skill and your Weapon Skill is greater than 10, then the formula for calculating your base miss rate against that mob is:
6% + (Mob's Defense Skill - Yuur Weapon Skill - 10) * 0.4%"
Close but not quite.
The second formula should be 7% + (Mob's Defense Skill - Your Weapon Skill - 10) * 0.4%"
Source: https://github.com/cmangos/mangos-c...76260a8f1fd3aab7b130f/src/game/Unit.cpp#L2640
 

tristan

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#72
You guys should refrain from using information from old wikis and forum posts, they can be wildly innacurate and were based on the Blizzard servers.
Especially concerning the melee calculations, there never was any blue post detailing all the formulas like casters had. All the numbers you see are the result of hitting stuff thousands of times and recording the data.

We're on a private server based on an open source emulator, we can look at the code and find out the exact mechanics for everything, and when in doubt we can ask the Kronos devs if they modified them.



Close but not quite.
The second formula should be 7% + (Mob's Defense Skill - Your Weapon Skill - 10) * 0.4%"
Source: https://github.com/cmangos/mangos-c...76260a8f1fd3aab7b130f/src/game/Unit.cpp#L2640
Thanks for the answer! Good to know the official mangos formula, I was too lazy to find it in the core by myself :tongue:

Well, although it is pretty obvious to check mangos code, that's not exactly the same core as Kronos', because our core is totally independent and made only for this server, so we can't assume that this is the formula the server is using. And, in my opinion, asking the devs what is the exact formula would take the fun of discovering it.

Anyways, I was aiming to find an original source that made those tests, and get the info from those thousands of hit samples, so we can claim a "blizzlike" formula for hit. Too bad there isn't a good source for that.
 

turinpt

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#74
Thanks for the answer! Good to know the official mangos formula, I was too lazy to find it in the core by myself :tongue:

Well, although it is pretty obvious to check mangos code, that's not exactly the same core as Kronos', because our core is totally independent and made only for this server, so we can't assume that this is the formula the server is using. And, in my opinion, asking the devs what is the exact formula would take the fun of discovering it.

Anyways, I was aiming to find an original source that made those tests, and get the info from those thousands of hit samples, so we can claim a "blizzlike" formula for hit. Too bad there isn't a good source for that.
I'm pretty sure Kronos is based on Mangos and they didn't create their own core.

Either way, its very possible that the devs changed it to Baeza's formula, who edited wowwiki back in the day and some people believe was a Blizzard dev or had inside knowledge.
I don't think anyone even got close to gathering the necessary data to draw any accurate conclusions (hundreds of thousands of hits).

There's no way to tell what the actual formula was unless we get a Blizzard dev from 10 years ago in here, that would be nice...

Edit: Some more digging and I found where mangos got their formula: http://web.archive.org/web/20071227...n_skill_adjustment_discussion/p20/#post469576
This formula was deduced during TBC using level 70 characters.
The git log also shows that the code was just copied from the Mangos TBC core.

So we can either go with the TBC formula or trust Baeza and use his.
 
Last edited:
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#75
I posted this in the Mage forums but it's not getting any responses-

Does anyone know exactly how Frost Nova works, with how it determines when it breaks on damage? Is there some specific formula, or is it just a random chance on every direct damage hit?

I've seen it break on the first hit from spell crits, spell hits, and even small-damage wand hits, so I'm tempted to believe that it's just a random chance on any non-DoT damage source.
 
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