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    TwinStar team

Big TheoryCrafting Thread

Psojed

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#76
This thread start without any explanation so i don't understand it...
It was a place for people who sought information about "how stuff works" in vanilla without the need to research historical entries for hours. Also, this thread is much older than your forum registration, so it's no wonder you don't understand it :wink:

You guys should refrain from using information from old wikis and forum posts, they can be wildly innacurate and were based on the Blizzard servers.
Especially concerning the melee calculations, there never was any blue post detailing all the formulas like casters had. All the numbers you see are the result of hitting stuff thousands of times and recording the data.

We're on a private server based on an open source emulator, we can look at the code and find out the exact mechanics for everything, and when in doubt we can ask the Kronos devs if they modified them.
Even if Mangos was used as a base for Kronos core back then (I don't know/remember), it is no longer interesting to us, because of the thousands of changes made to the core during the development of Kronos. In other words, whatever you find today in the official Mangos source codes is most likely invalid for Kronos - and not just because lots of that stuff was ported from TBC Mangos.

Since Kronos strives to provide mechanics very close to what the official servers were back in 2006, using the old wikis and forum posts might in fact be your best shot for finding relevant information. But you are also right that there was lots of nonsense posted back then, which is why you should crosscheck your findings with other sources if possible.

Either way, its very possible that the devs changed it to Baeza's formula, who edited wowwiki back in the day and some people believe was a Blizzard dev or had inside knowledge.
I don't think anyone even got close to gathering the necessary data to draw any accurate conclusions (hundreds of thousands of hits).
Beaza didn't actually post anything about hit or miss formula, he only edited wowwiki for glancing blows information. The first entry on wowwiki copied the information from Rogue forums in 2005. Note that there are some things mentioned in the guide that were changed later, for example back in 2005, dual wield had hard capped 19% miss rate, which wouldn't go down. This was changed later.

I'm sure that doing tests was the only way to tell how stuff works, unless a CM actually popped in and told people how stuff works. Usually these kinds of posts are archived.
http://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/printthread.php?tid=4500
http://forums.elitistjerks.com/forums/topic/6633-dagger-skill-question/
Warrior and Rogue threads are the ones you have to check for proper info if you want to solve this. I'm lazy to search for relevant topics today.

Hey Psojed,
I wanted to ask you if you have any info about the exact hit chance (or miss chance) formula for melee (not dual wielding).

I found a formula on an old Peenix post, but i'm not sure if it is right, or if it is the way it is calculated here on Kronos. The formula is:

"If the difference between the mob's Defense Skill and your Weapon Skill is less than or equal to 10 then the formula for calculating your base miss rate against that mob is:
5% + (Mob's Defense Skill - Your Weapon Skill) * 0.1%


If the difference between the mob's Defense Skill and your Weapon Skill is greater than 10, then the formula for calculating your base miss rate against that mob is:
6% + (Mob's Defense Skill - Yuur Weapon Skill - 10) * 0.4%"


Is it the same info you have? Because I can't find anything about hit caps on your main post of this thread.

Thank you!
I only know these two formulas were posted by some rogue who edited wowwiki in 2007. Will need to find some relevant info first.
 

turinpt

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#77
Beaza didn't actually post anything about hit or miss formula, he only edited wowwiki for glancing blows information. The first entry on wowwiki copied the information from Rogue forums in 2005. Note that there are some things mentioned in the guide that were changed later, for example back in 2005, dual wield had hard capped 19% miss rate, which wouldn't go down. This was changed later.
He posted this formula out of nowhere: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Miss?direction=next&oldid=347982
Before his edit: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Miss?direction=prev&oldid=347939

Which says that the formula on the Weapon Skill article is for pvp only and gives another for pve. It was later deduced during TBC with raw testing that the formula for pve was indeed different and it was roughly the same as Baeza's, except with 0.2% / 0.4% instead of 0.1% / 0.2%.
Worth looking into.
 

Psojed

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#79
He posted this formula out of nowhere: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Miss?direction=next&oldid=347982
Before his edit: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Miss?direction=prev&oldid=347939

Which says that the formula on the Weapon Skill article is for pvp only and gives another for pve. It was later deduced during TBC with raw testing that the formula for pve was indeed different and it was roughly the same as Baeza's, except with 0.2% / 0.4% instead of 0.1% / 0.2%.
Worth looking into.
His edit is December 6th, one day after patch 2.0.1 was released, so you could say this explanation was relevant for TBC. And that's also the reason why I have to look for some relevant info first.

I posted this in the Mage forums but it's not getting any responses-

Does anyone know exactly how Frost Nova works, with how it determines when it breaks on damage? Is there some specific formula, or is it just a random chance on every direct damage hit?

I've seen it break on the first hit from spell crits, spell hits, and even small-damage wand hits, so I'm tempted to believe that it's just a random chance on any non-DoT damage source.
It breaks when you take X damage during a frost nova, that's why you see criticals break it fast while DoTs take a while. I don't know how is the X determined.
 

turinpt

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#80
His edit is December 6th, one day after patch 2.0.1 was released, so you could say this explanation was relevant for TBC. And that's also the reason why I have to look for some relevant info first.
His first edit was Nov. 30 but yeah TBC had been on the PTR for a while so the numbers could have come from there.
However the 0.04% formula stated on the Weapon Skill wiki raised some doubts back in the day:

A rogue with 300 weapon skill would have 5.6% miss on yellow attacks and here's someone missing with 8% hit:
http://sp00n.pytalhost.com/misc/backstabmiss.jpg

Here's someone missing with a 2H with 7% hit: http://forums.elitistjerks.com/foru...te-summary-of-hit-caps/?page=4#comment-204798

Someone claims to have missed a white hit with 8%: http://forums.elitistjerks.com/foru...te-summary-of-hit-caps/?page=4#comment-204930
Sucks that all the image links are dead.

Found those links here: https://github.com/FeenixServerProject/Phoenix_1.12.1_Issue_tracker/issues/3936
They claim that someone ruled out a hit cap after going 24000 hits without a miss but I didn't find the source for that.
 
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Psojed

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#81
A rogue with 300 weapon skill would have 5.6% miss on yellow attacks and here's someone missing with 8% hit:
http://sp00n.pytalhost.com/misc/backstabmiss.jpg

Here's someone missing with a 2H with 7% hit: http://forums.elitistjerks.com/foru...te-summary-of-hit-caps/?page=4#comment-204798
Same as above

Someone claims to have missed a white hit with 8%: http://forums.elitistjerks.com/foru...te-summary-of-hit-caps/?page=4#comment-204930
Sucks that all the image links are dead.
Here's another statement to the fray:
http://forums.elitistjerks.com/foru...ry-of-hit-caps/?do=findComment&comment=173307
5.6% special/2h miss rate, and 24.6% DW miss rate are assumptions and speculation based on defense/skill disparity mechanics. The actual effect of level differences is not known, and the amount of defense mobs have is not always 5 * level.
I remember the last time I was looking into melee hit, I included some research about 8% hit vs. 9% hit from the start of WotLK in 2008, because people magically started not missing abilities with 8% hit.

From the EJ thread:

Tested again on Loatheb (with inspect screenshots before the fight), misses with +7(1 war) and +8(1 war), no miss with +9(2 wars). All dual wielding, no +skill modifiers. So prolly is the same as with hunters.
but

https://web.archive.org/web/20081204015616/http://elitistjerks.com/f74/t37714-hit_rating/
Hit rating needed seems to be 8% now.

http://ordure2000.free.fr/hitcap.jpg
(165 (5.03%) hit + 3/3 FA, vs. lvl83 training dummy)
Why would blizz suddenly change a mechanic that's been working for more than 3 years and not include a mention about it. Will look into it tomorrow.
 

turinpt

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#82
I remember the last time I was looking into melee hit, I included some research about 8% hit vs. 9% hit from the start of WotLK in 2008, because people magically started not missing abilities with 8% hit.

Why would blizz suddenly change a mechanic that's been working for more than 3 years and not include a mention about it. Will look into it tomorrow.
Yeah I noticed people talking about it over here: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Hit#Updated_with_new_information

About that EJ thread I linked earlier:
The Recount addon back then counted dodge / parries as misses and prior to 1.8 there used to be a hard cap on hit gains from gear.
Since most of those comments don't mention what addon they used or what patch they were at its hard to take them seriously.

Our best evidence is that Vem screenshot, since we're sure it was past 1.8 and it disproves both the 0.04 assumption and Beaza's formula. I'm leaning towards the TBC 9% cap equation, at least for yellow hits.
 
Last edited:
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#83
It breaks when you take X damage during a frost nova, that's why you see criticals break it fast while DoTs take a while. I don't know how is the X determined.
Yeah, that's how druid's root spell worked on a WOTLK server I played; it would only break after a certain percentage of MAX HP was dealt; 1 wrath would not break roots, but 1 starfire would break it every time. You could perma-root elites by just doing root -> wrath x4 -> root -> wrath x4 but a couple of starfires would break the roots.

But like I said, I've had times when I've been able to hit the mob with 2 frostbolts, taking down ~40% of its health, and the frost nova didn't break, yet other times, I frost nova and do 1 wand hit for like 15 damage, and the frost nova breaks. So I don't think it's strictly "breaks after X damage"

I've seen people say that each direct hit has an increasing chance to break, like 1st hit is 20%, 2nd hit is 40%, 3rd hit is 60%, etc.

Maybe it's a mix of both; having an increasing chance to break every hit, OR, breaks after X damage is done.
 

Psojed

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#84
Our best evidence is that Vem screenshot, since we're sure it was past 1.8 and it disproves both the 0.04 assumption and Beaza's formula. I'm leaning towards the TBC 9% cap equation, at least for yellow hits.
This topic has a nice summary of what was believed back then.

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/forums/topic/5970-hunters-and-hit/?page=2

8% (5% + 1% per level difference)

5.6% (5% + 0.04% per skill difference)

8.6% (5% + 1% per level + 0.04% per skill difference)

The 0.04% per skill difference was suggested by a blue post https://web.archive.org/web/2006050...m/thread.aspx?fn=wow-blizzard-archive-en&t=15
and later believed to be the counterpart to defense.

---

Wowwiki was then updated in TBC for this explanation
http://wow.gamepedia.com/index.php?title=Miss&oldid=879552 (it's a bit long)
In PvE (at least), a player's chance to miss is determined solely by the difference in the defending mob's Defense Skill and the player's Weapon Skill. Further, the effect is not linear. So, there are actually two different formulas that might apply, depending upon whether the difference between the mob's Defense Skill and your Weapon Skill is greater than 10 or not. Here are the two formulas:

* If the difference between the mob's Defense Skill and your Weapon Skill is less than or equal to 10 then the formula for calculating your base miss rate against that mob is: 5% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill)*.1%

* If the difference between the mob's Defense Skill and your Weapon Skill is greater than 10, then the formula for calculating your base miss rate against that mob is: 7% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill - 10)*.4%

Applying these formulas gives the following base miss rate for a Level 70 character with a 350 Weapon Skill:

* v. Level 70 mob: 5.0%
* v. Level 71 mob: 5.5%
* v. Level 72 mob: 6.0%
* v. Level 73 mob: 9.0%

Thus if you are a Level 70 character with a Weapon Skill of 350, you need a Hit Rating of 142 (9.00%) to never miss a shot against a Level 73 boss (or skull mob).

What this means is that there is a big +hit benefit to keeping your Weapon Skill within 10 levels of the mobs you are trying to fight. For example, by improving your Weapon Skill from 350 to 355, you effectively reduce your chance to miss against Level 73 mobs by 3%! However, after getting to 355, increasing your Weapon Skill the next 5 levels, to 360, only reduces your chance to miss by an additional.5% (or 3.5% in total). Also, note that there is a huge jump in miss rate reduction by going from 354 to 355 Weapon Skill. This is the point where you switch from one formula to the other, and so this particular single point of Weapon Skill is worth a dramatic +1.4% hit against a Level 73 mob/boss.

Racial Bonuses that provide +Weapon Skill thus turn out to be pretty valuable for improving your +hit capability. For Humans, Dwarves, Orcs and Trolls their racial bonuses increase their Weapon Skill at Level 70 from 350 to 355. With a 355 Weapon Skill, your base miss rate against a Level 73 mob (or skull boss) is only 6% instead of 9%.

Also, in applying these miss rate formulas, fractional Weapon Skill levels are dropped, not rounded. So, say you have are a Level 70 character, and you equip a piece of gear that gives +15 Mace Skill Rating. In theory, this equates to 3.8 +Weapon Skill Level. And, in theory, Blizzard could have used the fractional .8 in its subsequent calculations of hit and miss, or, perhaps, rounded it to 4.0. But it doesn’t work that way. Instead, the fractional .8 Weapon Skill is simply dropped altogether. You get 353 Weapon Skill for purposes of all hit and miss calculations.
And then changed to 8% during WotLK. I took the arduous task of browsing the vanilla and TBC topics on elitistjerks forum (89 pages + pages of topics I opened), and I found zero parses, but at least I found an explanation:
https://web.archive.org/web/2007122...rrior_weapon_skill_adjustment_discussion/p20/
there's a summary at the end, which states the same thing that I quoted from TBC wowwiki.

This link contains explanation as to why 9% was the hit cap in TBC. Basically, they ran over 6000 hits at 142 hit rating (9.00%) with no misses, then they ran the same test with 141 hit rating (8.94%) and they got a miss quite soon.

Then this link contains a nice table of how they were testing the effect of adding extra + weapon skill.
Code:
Skill    Hit   Miss    Total    Decrease
+ 0   362.69   28.0%   + 4.0%   0.0%  [most likely confirmed]
+ 1   356.39   27.6%   + 3.6%   0.4%
+ 2   350.08   27.2%   + 3.2%   0.4%  [most likely confirmed]
+ 3   343.77   26.8%   + 2.8%   0.4%
+ 4   337.46   26.4%   + 2.4%   0.4%
+ 5   315.38   25.0%   + 1.0%   1.4%  --> 1% jump [hit rating confirmed]
+ 6   313.81   24.9%   + 0.9%   0.1%
+ 7   312.23   24.8%   + 0.8%   0.1%
+ 8   310.65   24.7%   + 0.7%   0.1%
+ 9   309.08   24.6%   + 0.6%   0.1%
+10   307.5    24.5%   + 0.5%   0.1%  [confirmed]
+11   305.92   24.4%   + 0.4%   0.1%
+12   304.35   24.3%   + 0.3%   0.1%
+13   302.77   24.2%   + 0.2%   0.1%
+14   301.19   24.1%   + 0.1%   0.1%
+15   299.61   24.0%   + 0.0%   0.1%
Which basically formulates the formula from TBC wowwiki linked above.

The 9% hit cap theory explains the miss on this backstab, since the user is elf (no weapon skill bonus) and his daggers are core hound tooth/qiraji pugio (from the buff icons - no weapon skill bonus either), so the TBC formula fits, while both WotLK and Beaza's formulas do not explain the miss on that Backstab in vanilla.

Sadly, the 9% was confirmed during TBC by experimental testing, but vanilla does not have a confirmation test, at least I couldn't find one. Assuming the table above is correct for Vanilla too, the hit cap could still be between 8.6% and 9% (both these values explain the miss on that screenshot).

The only way to check out precise Vanilla hit cap would be to equip 7% hit together with +3 to Daggers and 4/5 Defias Set and then perform a test on a boss monster. If some retail guy did this weird test setup and had 0 misses = means that the hit cap for Vanilla was precisely 8.6%. If he had a miss, it means hit cap for Vanilla was 9% aswell.

TL;DR
- Wowwiki is a huge mess of contradictory information about base miss chance.
- The hit cap for vanilla is either 8.6% or 9%, we still don't know.

PS: If someone wants to search for vanilla parses, basically we're looking for someone with +4 to weapon skill. There are more options to choose from:
- warr or rogue with Maladath
- warr or rogue with Skilled Fighting Blade
- hunter with Eye of Nerub or other lower level items
 
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turinpt

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#85
This topic has a nice summary of what was believed back then.

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/forums/topic/5970-hunters-and-hit/?page=2

The 0.04% per skill difference was suggested by a blue post https://web.archive.org/web/2006050...m/thread.aspx?fn=wow-blizzard-archive-en&t=15
and later believed to be the counterpart to defense.
Just read that thread, seems like the largest test someone ran had a 2172 sample size, which still gives you a 2% margin or error. Not very conclusive.
The blue post doesn't mention anything about a pvp / pve split and uses pvp in his example, so both formulas are still viable.

The only way to check out precise Vanilla hit cap would be to equip 7% hit together with +3 to Daggers and4/5 Defias Set and then perform a test on a boss monster. If some retail guy did this weird test setup and had 0 misses = means that the hit cap for Vanilla was precisely 8.6%. If he had a miss, it means hit cap for Vanilla was 9% aswell.
Some rogue should test this once the server comes back up, so we at least know where Kronos stands and we can gear properly. Anachronos in Tanaris is a good 63 mob for this.

Purely speculating, what would make the most sense from a design standpoint?
Casters are heavy on level difference mechanics so its not that surprising that melee would have them as well.
However the 9% formula is something that we know for certain that Blizzard designed and implemented, if only later in the game.
If we absolutely must pick one for Kronos, I'd go with the later one.
 

turinpt

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#86
AG007 sent me this chat log from IRC
[00:14] [Chero]: if (pVictim->IsPlayer())
[00:14] [Chero]: fHitChance = 95.0f + iSkillDiff * 0.04f;
[00:14] [Chero]: else if (iSkillDiff < -10)
[00:14] [Chero]: fHitChance = 95.0f + iSkillDiff * 0.2f;
[00:14] [Chero]: else
[00:14] [Chero]: fHitChance = 95.0f + iSkillDiff * 0.1f;
Meaning they went with Beaza's formula. Hit cap at 300 skill is 8%, 27% for DW.
 

ikim0000

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#87
Pet Attack speeds

I'm still a little confused about the whole Pet Attack speeds issue, from memory on vanilla, I remember Pets like Takk (1.12AS) and Broken tooth(1.0) to have really fast attacks, I might be wrong though.

Now, i'm reading old archive posts
https://web.archive.org/web/20061112230516/http://tkasomething.com/attackspeeds.php
Saying that some attack speeds are wrong, and I'm assuming that these are the speeds used on this server, because it matches with the 2.0 on Takk. Should we use this webpage as the official guide to attack speeds?

Did servers like Nostalrius have it completely wrong? Where are these random faster attack speeds for some mobs coming from? a previous patch?
https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=3698


Here is Takk's 2.0 attack speed on Kronos 2,
http://i.imgur.com/ISjqtky.jpg
 

johnmatrix

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#88
Re: Pet Attack speeds

so it is generally known that pet attack speed normalization happened in burning crusade

and in vanilla takk had a fast running speed before 1.9 patch (pet pursuit speed were normalized in that patch)


thread from 2005
http://wow.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=243&mid=111196453939084105

in the 4th post in this thread from 2005 he says "I say the Rake is better due to the 1.2 attack speed."
he wouldn't say that if takk had 1.12 attack speed

also in 7th post in the thread "Ok, I did some testing between The Rake and Takk. I figured Takk's slower attack speed may not matter because of his superior damage."


then in this thread also from 2005
http://wow.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=243&mid=1119919187295223914#2

"Well The Rakes attack speed clocks in at 1.2dps, and Takk is sitting at 2.0."

the numbers seem to agree with what the people in the previous thread said,
takk with 2.0 attack speed slower than rake's 1.2 but dealing more damage with heach hit

seems like people wanted takk for superior pursuit(running) speed before the normalization in 1.9
i dont know how it was but this just what i found
 

Eclectic

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Apr 10, 2016
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#89
Re: Pet Attack speeds

AFAIR, Takk The Leaper could, before his pursuit speed was nerfed, catch up with people on epic mounts in Original.
 

KaiZen

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#90
Firstly, awesome thread. Still I'd like to ask on few things tho:

1. Is there an invariable 40% chance to perform glancing blow against boss or does it depend on weapon skill and mob's defense value? Is the chance lower when I get let's say 305 weapon skill? Psojed have stated in the formula it is base weapon skill so I'm confused.

2. Is there only one formula for calculating base melee miss chance? I've discovered several pages (here or here), proclaiming that there are two and which one is used depends on actual difference between weapon skill and defense of the mob. Basically it says: If I have 305 weapon skill or more and fighting a boss then my base melee miss chance is 8% (or 27% DW). If I have 304 or less then it is 9% (or 28% DW). Is it so?

3. How do we know there is +0,04% hit chance per +1 weapon skill? Has this information come from Blizzard?

4.
Let's say you have 30% spell critical strike chance. You cast 100 Frostbolts targeting a boss - 83% hit chance - so on average 83 frostbolts hit and 17 miss.

If the crit chance was caculated with the same roll as hit (melee system does that), 30% of your hits would become critical hits, and those Critical hits would be distributed between all other possible outcomes. So your beloved critical strike would end up as a Miss/Resist.

So it might happen that you make 30 Crits, 53 Hits, then 17 Misses.
Or it might happen that you make only 13 Crits, 70 Hits and 17 Misses.

But the critical chance is calculated separately, "Crit roll". Out of your 83 frostbolts that hit, 30% will alwaysbecome criticals. 83 * 0.3 = 24,9
So in this case, out of 100 frostbolts in total, you miss 17, Hit 59 Frostbolts and 24 frostbolts should always be criticals. Now that's better, huh?

Conclusion is pretty simple: The less chance there is to miss your spells, the more criticals you get. It is more important to stack Hit before Crit.
I don't quite understand how could 2 roll table system lead to more crits (in average) as Psojed proclaims. Let's take a look at the example with frostbolts. In single roll table the average is 30 crits out of 100 casted FB. In 2 rolls table the average is 24,9 crits out of 100 casted FB. IMHO 30 > 24,9


Thanks for possible explanations.
 
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tristan

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#91
1. Is there an invariable 40% chance to perform glancing blow against boss or does it depend on weapon skill and mob's defense value?
The chance of the hit to be glancing is invariable, yes. What you do with weapon skill is to "reduce the damage reduction" of the glancing blows, and if you have high enough weapon skill you can even make glancing blows to hit the same amount as a normal hit (but it will still be marked as glancing).


2. Is there only one formula for calculating base melee miss chance?
No, there are two that depend on your weapon skill and your target's defense skill. Quoting myself and an answer I got on this same thread:

"If the difference between the mob's Defense Skill and your Weapon Skill is less than or equal to 10 then the formula for calculating your base miss rate against that mob is:
5% + (Mob's Defense Skill - Your Weapon Skill) * 0.1%


If the difference between the mob's Defense Skill and your Weapon Skill is greater than 10, then the formula for calculating your base miss rate against that mob is:
6% + (Mob's Defense Skill - Your Weapon Skill - 10) * 0.4%"
Close but not quite.
The second formula should be 7% + (Mob's Defense Skill - Your Weapon Skill - 10) * 0.4%"
Source: https://github.com/cmangos/mangos-c...76260a8f1fd3aab7b130f/src/game/Unit.cpp#L2640

So in short terms, since Kronos is Mangos based, the formulas probably are:
If the difference between the mob's Defense Skill and your Weapon Skill is less than or equal to 10:
5% + (Mob's Defense Skill - Your Weapon Skill) * 0.1%
If the difference between the mob's Defense Skill and your Weapon Skill is greater than 10:
7% + (Mob's Defense Skill - Your Weapon Skill - 10) * 0.4%"


So, if you have 300 weapon skill and your target is a raid boss, you will have:
7+(315-300-10)*0.4 = 9% chance to miss. You can do the math for other cases.


I've tested it against bosses and level 60 targets, and so far it seems to work with that formula.


3. How do we know there is +0,04% hit chance per +1 weapon skill? Has this information come from Blizzard?
No, it is deduced from the formulas I wrote above, but that number is wrong. The numbers actually change on both cases. E.g.


If your target is level 60 and has 300 defense, then:
5+(300-300)*0.1 = 5% -- when you have 300 weapon skill
5+(300-301)*0.1 = 4.9% -- when you have 301 weapon skill
5+(300-302)*0.1 = 4.8% -- when you have 302 weapon skill
5+(300-303)*0.1 = 4.7% -- when you have 303 weapon skill
5+(300-304)*0.1 = 4.6% -- when you have 304 weapon skill
So in this case, each weapon skill point equals to 0.1% hit chance.


But if is level 63 (raid boss) and has 315 defense, then:
7+(315-300-10)*0.4 = 9% -- when you have 300 weapon skill
7+(315-301-10)*0.4 = 8.6% -- when you have 301 weapon skill
7+(315-302-10)*0.4 = 8.2% -- when you have 302 weapon skill
7+(315-303-10)*0.4 = 7.8% -- when you have 303 weapon skill
7+(315-304-10)*0.4 = 7.4% -- when you have 304 weapon skill
So in this other case, each weapon skill point equals to 0.4% hit chance.


That is why weapon skill is so valuable against raid bosses.


I don't quite understand how could 2 roll table system lead to more crits (in average)

To understand that, you should understand first the melee attack table first and the concept of "crit cap", and how everything is calculated in only one table in that case.


I hope this information is useful to you :wink:
 

tristan

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#93
Kronos is using a different formula, posted it on the previous page:
You are right, for some reason I skipped reading that response.
Then the formulas should be:


If the target is a player, your chance to hit (not miss as my previous post) is calculated with this formula:
95 + (Your Weapon Skill - Enemy Player's Defense Skill) * 0.04
On the contrary, if the target is not a player and if the difference between the mob's Defense Skill and your Weapon Skill is greater than 10, then:
95 + (Your Weapon Skill - Mob's Defense Skill) * 0.2
Or finally, if the difference between the mob's Defense Skill and your Weapon Skill is less than or equal to 10, then:
95 + (Your Weapon Skill - Mob's Defense Skill) * 0.1


So, basic examples would be like this.


V/S Player
If your target has 300 defense, then:
95+(300-300)*0.04 = 95% hit chance (or 5% miss chance)
95+(301-300)*0.04 = 95.04% hit chance (or 4.96% miss chance)
95+(302-300)*0.04 = 95.08% hit chance (or 4.92% miss chance)
95+(303-300)*0.04 = 95.12% hit chance (or 4.88% miss chance)
95+(304-300)*0.04 = 95.16% hit chance (or 4.84% miss chance)
So in this case, each weapon skill point equals to 0.04% hit chance.


V/S Mob
If your target is level 63 (raid boss that has 315 defense) then:
95+(300-315)*0.2 = 92% hit chance (or 8% miss chance)
95+(301-315)*0.2 = 92.2% hit chance (or 7.8% miss chance)
95+(302-315)*0.2 = 92.4% hit chance (or 7.6% miss chance)
95+(303-315)*0.2 = 92.6% hit chance (or 7.4% miss chance)
95+(304-315)*0.2 = 92.8% hit chance (or 7.2% miss chance)
In this case, each weapon skill point equals to 0.2% hit chance.


But if your target is level 60 (thus it has 300 defense), then:
95+(300-300)*0.1 = 95% hit chance (or 5% miss chance)
95+(301-300)*0.1 = 95.1% hit chance (or 4.9% miss chance)
95+(302-300)*0.1 = 95.2% hit chance (or 4.8% miss chance)
95+(303-300)*0.1 = 95.3% hit chance (or 4.7% miss chance)
95+(304-300)*0.1 = 95.4% hit chance (or 4.6% miss chance)
And finally in this case, each weapon skill point equals to 0.1% hit chance.




So I guess with that info. it's pretty disappointing how little weapon skill helps to improve your hit chance on most cases. The only interesting case is when you have 305 weapon skill and you fight against a raid boss, the formula changes to:
95+(305-315)*0.1 = 94% hit chance (or 6% miss chance)


So you jump from 7.2% miss chance (with 304 weapon skill) to 6% miss chance (with 305 weapon skill). So I guess the only real reason to improve your weapon skill is to reach 305 for 6% miss chance and for reducing the damage reduction from glancing blows.
Ah, and I forgot to mention, this applies to not dual weilding swings and special attacks.


Too bad Chero gave away this info, it takes away the fun of discovering it, at least for me :(
 

KaiZen

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#94
Thanks guys. It's pretty clear now. :winkiss:

Still 0,04% per skillpoint against player? That's nothing, why would they implement this? :biggrin:

To understand that, you should understand first the melee attack table first and the concept of "crit cap", and how everything is calculated in only one table in that case.
I do understand melee attack table and also "crit cap" which has nothing to do with this particular subject btw. But stating that 2 roll system brings more consistent crit chance doesn't make sense. Or at least there is no solid mathematical explanation.

Let's consider a lvl 60 rogue fightning against boss (lvl 63). Let's say he attacks from behind so neither parry nor block can occur during the fight. No +% hit, 300 weap skill, 10% crit chance. 2 roll table concerns special attacks so glancing is off too.

1 roll table looks like this:

Miss 8 %
Crit 10 %
Dodge 6,5 %
Hit 75,5 %

Out of 100 Backstabs 10 will crit

2 roll table looks like this:

1. roll:

Chance to fail (Miss+Dodge) 8 + 6,5 = 14,5 %
Chance to successful attack 85,5 %

2. roll:

Hit 90 %
Crit 10 %

Out of 100 Backstabs 85,5 will be successful. Out of 85,5 successful backstabs only 8,55 will crit.


10 crits > 8,35 crits so where exactly lies the benefit of 2 roll table system? :huh:
 
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tristan

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#95
2 roll table looks like this:

1. roll:

Chance to fail (Miss+Dodge) 8 + 6,5 = 14,5 %
Chance to successful attack 85,5 %

2. roll:

Hit 90 %
Crit 10 %

Out of 100 Backstabs 85,5 will be successful. Out of 85,5 successful backstabs only 8,55 will crit.


10 crits > 8,35 crits so where exactly lies the benefit of 2 roll table system? :huh:
The benefit of the 2 rolls system is due to improved spell hit chance. The more spell hit you have on your gear, the more you will crit, untill you reach the spell hit cap. Then, if you stack more spell crit chance, you have no limit for your crits.
But on the melee table, even if you reach the hit cap, you still have a crit cap due to the melee attack table made only in 1 roll and having dodges and glancing blows.

That is the real benefit of the 2 tables roll.
 

KaiZen

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#96
The benefit of the 2 rolls system is due to improved spell hit chance. The more spell hit you have on your gear, the more you will crit, untill you reach the spell hit cap.
It's not benefit because with same stats you'll end up with much fewer crits and slightly more hits in 2 roll system. 1 roll system would always be better choice for your dps.

But on the melee table, even if you reach the hit cap, you still have a crit cap due to the melee attack table made only in 1 roll and having dodges and glancing blows.
This is white table you're talking about. I'm talking about „yellow table“. Glanc counts as hit and discussing crit cap has no point as it is too high to ever reach. I'm not comparing melee and spell table here. I'm comparing 1 roll and 2 roll table.

We're getting further from my original point here. Let's get back to my problem and I will be very specific now:

If the crit chance was caculated with the same roll as hit (melee system does that), 30% of your hits would become critical hits, and those Critical hits would be distributed between all other possible outcomes. So your beloved critical strike would end up as a Miss/Resist.

So it might happen that you make 30 Crits, 53 Hits, then 17 Misses.
Or it might happen that you make only 13 Crits, 70 Hits and 17 Misses.

But the critical chance is calculated separately, "Crit roll". Out of your 83 frostbolts that hit, 30% will alwaysbecome criticals. 83 * 0.3 = 24,9
Psojed says here that in 2 roll table you are guaranteed to have those 24,9 crits everytime. Why is that? Why you cannot end up with let's say 11 crits in 2 roll system? IMHO it's all about statistics and you can end up with less crits in both cases.
 
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#97
About crit cap:

The initial formula and attack table(vs lvl 63 target, striking from behind, dual wield, 10% hit chance) looks like:
1 - Glance chance - Dodge chance - Miss chance + Hit chance = Crit cap
1 - 0,4 - 0,065 - 0,27 + 0,1 = 0,365

It means that only 36,5% of critical chance would be effective.

With 305 weapon skill:
1 - 0,4 - 0,06 - 0,25 + 0,1 = 0,39

But there's another, hidden factor, as
If your weapon skill is LESS THAN OR EQUAL TO the mob's Defense skill (the mob's level * 5)
The base chance for your attack to be a critical strike is: 5% - (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill)*0.04%
So the formula for calculating crit cap becomes:
1 - Glance chance - Dodge chance - Miss chance + Hit chance - Base critical chance = Crit cap(Obtainable effective crit)
1 - 0,4 - 0,065 - 0,27 + 0,1 - 0,044 = 0,321

For the 305 weapon skill respectively:
1 - 0,4 - 0,06 - 0,25 + 0,1 - 0,046 = 0,344

Source of dodge chance and base crit chance: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Weapon_skill

Confirm?


Also quite noticeable that if it's correctly, then Human Warrior in pre raid bis gear(12% hit, 27% crit unbuffed in berserker stance) is having around 36,4% critical chance cap. Which is obtainable even without world buffs.
Like:
Effective crit that you can obtain from buffs and consumables: 36,4% - 27% = 9,4%.
4% from elemental sharpening stones(2%*2 weapons) + 3,25% from elixir of mongoose = 7,25% crit already.
Add Mark of The Wild and Blessing Of Kings and you are probably already capped at crit. Not mentioning the Leader of Pack Feral buff, which gives pure 3% critical strike chance.

So you need like 10-13%+ more %hit to include Crit part of such buffs as Leader of Pack, Rallying cry of the Dragonslayer, Songflower Serenade. Which is kinda hard task even for rogues with theyr +5% hit from talents.
 
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tristan

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#98
It's not benefit because with same stats you'll end up with much fewer crits and slightly more hits in 2 roll system.
This is white table you're talking about. I'm talking about „yellow table“. Glanc counts as hit and discussing crit cap has no point as it is too high to ever reach. I'm not comparing melee and spell table here. I'm comparing 1 roll and 2 roll table.

Not quite right. Glancing blows DO NOT count as a hit, they are an independant kind of hit.
Basically in a single table roll system a normal melee hit (done by a player) will distribute between: miss, dodge, parry, block, glancing, crit and normal hit. So, what you need to do for getting more critical hits is to reduce the other posibilities: attack from behind so 0% chance to parry, incrase your hit chance for not missing your blows, etc. There are some stats that you can't reduce, such as dodge, and that's why crit cap is so improtant to understand.
And actually crit cap is easy to achieve as a melee, as GeneralKappa already stated.
If you want to compare 1 roll table and 2 roll tables systems, you have to compare melee v/s spell.




Psojed says here that in 2 roll table you are guaranteed to have those 24,9 crits everytime. Why is that? Why you cannot end up with let's say 11 crits in 2 roll system? IMHO it's all about statistics and you can end up with less crits in both cases.

I think there is a problem on how Psojed wrote that. He was always talking about AVERAGE, because the chance any spell or blow of being a hit, miss, resist, etc., is totally RNG, so I think that the "always" underlined is a little wrong in the context, he wanted to say that those critical hits will always be "critical hits" (the concept) and they cannot turn into a "resisted hit" or something else, like it would be on the melee table. So, if you reach your spell hit cap, your spell crit chance will be totally real on a large sample, and it won't get diminished by other posibilities.
 

Psojed

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#99


I did talk about average. KaiZen quoted only the lower part of my post, not the whole part about spell crit. And yes, the final part is written in a way that suggests that your crit ratio is constant, while in reality, it's RNG as tristan said.

Spell crit is calculated independently of spell hit - the game rolls for hit chance first, and only if the spell hits you have a separate roll for crits:

Let's say you have 30% spell critical strike chance. You cast 100 Frostbolts targeting a boss - 83% hit chance - so on average 83 frostbolts hit and 17 miss.

If the crit chance was caculated with the same roll as hit (melee system does that), 30% of your hits would become critical hits, and those Critical hits would be distributed between all other possible outcomes. So your beloved critical strike would end up as a Miss/Resist.

So it might happen that you make 30 Crits, 53 Hits, then 17 Misses.
Or it might happen that you make only 13 Crits, 70 Hits and 17 Misses.

But the critical chance is calculated separately, "Crit roll". Out of your 83 frostbolts that hit, 30% will always become criticals. 83 * 0.3 = 24,9
So in this case, out of 100 frostbolts in total, you miss 17, Hit 59 Frostbolts and 24 frostbolts should always be criticals. Now that's better, huh?
 
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