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    TwinStar team

Buff Naxx

nimeralos

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#1
From 10 days ago news:

Additionally, we recognize that there has been some player generated discussion around the increasing difficulty of Naxxramas upon release. At this point in time, the values being used in Naxxramas development are not being inflated to increase difficulty.
Please, keep us updated on how it will be "at another point in time".

========================

My personal opinion is that we really need a Sapphiron bottleneck, which could be created by simply buffing the aura (to force guilds to farm Naxx for frost resistance). Without it, Naxx will be cleared in hours. With it, Naxx can still live for a few IDs.

In my opinion, the above solution is elegant, easy to implement and balance, and shall improve the players' experience. There're other ideas, of course. Disabling world buffs for Naxx is one of them; "direct" dmg/hp buffs (for the hardest bosses) is another. While I would be happy to see them implemented, they are unlikely to save KT for more than a couple of days.

It is Naxx, and people - I think - want to wipe.
 
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Slippy

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#3
Having been in I find it hard to believe a lot of guilds won't be losing buffs on trash or sloppy things like moving the wrong way on Thaddius. Only takes 1 in 40 to fuck up. So what if it's cleared the first night? I very much doubt guilds will be "speed running" Naxx if it's anything close to authentic.
 

xos

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#4
Pls no tinkering on purpose. It's too slippery a slope and too easy to screw up. If you overtune it so that it's hard for the no-life guilds, it will be impossible for everyone else. And if it turns out to be no harder but just takes longer, well that's terrible for everyone (some people like to do other things on occasion).

Just make encounters with blizzlike values and strip world buffs on zoning in. #ProblemSolved
 

Desplice

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#6
If you tune encounters so you are required to have world buffs to kill bosses you will end up spending more time getting buffs than you actually spend in the instance, at least until everybody know every encounter. Imo that is definitely not something to look forward to. And yes, I have summoning alts available.

Other than that full agreement with xos. Remove world buffs for Naxx.
 

Topmong

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#7
Pls no tinkering on purpose. It's too slippery a slope and too easy to screw up. If you overtune it so that it's hard for the no-life guilds, it will be impossible for everyone else. And if it turns out to be no harder but just takes longer, well that's terrible for everyone (some people like to do other things on occasion).

Just make encounters with blizzlike values and strip world buffs on zoning in. #ProblemSolved
Well, in the four years that Naxxramas was out on feenix, I got to see a plenty of casual guilds progress it, people would generally make it at least up to Gothik (11/15) in a matter of a few months. There was also a more 'real' sense of progression as it generally took some time to down the bosses; new guilds would actually be joyous over their firstkills on Patchwerk, which proved they had gathered enough gear for most of the instance, and I still remember how big of a moment it was for the guild that got the horde firstkill on 4hm (in late 2013, roughly 2 years after the instance released).

But it was also a different time, Realmplayers would only be released somewhere in late 2013 with Raidstats soon to follow, the people who used to raid all those years actually wanted to play vanilla and enjoy it for the game, rather than play Raidstats and skip as much of the game as possible.
 

nimeralos

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#8
But it was also a different time, Realmplayers would only be released somewhere in late 2013 with Raidstats soon to follow, the people who used to raid all those years actually wanted to play vanilla and enjoy it for the game, rather than play Raidstats and skip as much of the game as possible.
You mean, Feenix players didn't flask/wbuff themselves for Naxx..?
 

Topmong

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#9
You mean, Feenix players didn't flask/wbuff themselves for Naxx..?
Well that's not really what I was hinting at with the whole thing, just tried to point out how the mindset around vanilla raiding changed in the recent years.

But to answer your question, in a 14/15 guild I frequently saw people who wouldn't go over the top on the consumables or bother to flask for the first half of the instance, but there were also the people who'd use every single buff available, which was a lot on feenix considering how consumables stacked a lot more. Flasks are perhaps a bit poor comparison as flasking was relatively a lot cheaper and accessible than it's on Kronos, but with worldbuffs there used to be cases where guilds ported out of naxx midway through to take worldbuffs before Loatheb, or before Sapphiron rather than to breeze through the easier bosses.
 

Sarei

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#10
..took some time to down the bosses; new guilds would actually be joyous over their firstkills on Patchwerk, which proved they had gathered enough gear for most of the instance
Lmao reminded me of these videos.. Our first kills awhile after we entered Naxx and cleared Spider Wing and Razuvious xd Everyone was so excited to actually kill it :D We were mediocre guild but when it comes down to actual raiding/killing bosses, had way more fun then killing C'Thun first ID here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2us6hkWnaqs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKKvNWIOe1I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hspFctrLXeQ
 

Kioshi

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#11
Btw my opinion is make oposite of PTR situation when launched -> for example bosses do 25% more dmg and take 25% less damage, this would decay every raid reset by 5%
Its not blizzlike, but its way to compensate overequipment of players and the fact that all tactics are already well known.
This could simulate competition and progress like on official servers since you would need to beat stronger mobs. But of course could create situation where first weeks noone beats anything. (Not sure how lanch will be held but in case all naxx in one, would be interesting to see who will try clear what fist)

Its only my opinion not official statement or indication how it will be.
 

nimeralos

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#12
Btw my opinion is make oposite of PTR situation when launched -> for example bosses do 25% more dmg and take 25% less damage, this would decay every raid reset by 5%
Decent idea... Especially if you start with 250% instead :D

Not sure how lanch will be held but in case all naxx in one, would be interesting to see who will try clear what fist
As far as I know, it's already set in stone - all Naxx in one.
 

Slippy

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#13
Bosses do 25% more damage? How would that even work on something like Patchwerk?

Honestly, the easiest solution is to just disable World Buffs for the first couple of lockouts. This will also help to flush out any remaining bugs since stuff isn't being brute forced. After that let people run it how they wish. Buffs are still lost in AQ40 all the time. I'm sure it will happen way more in Naxx.
 
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#14
My personal opinion is that we really need a Sapphiron bottleneck, which could be created by simply buffing the aura (to force guilds to farm Naxx for frost resistance). Without it, Naxx will be cleared in hours. With it, Naxx can still live for a few IDs.

I hate to break it to you, but most of the long standing players on Kronos already have a full Frost Resist set crafted. I think I'm up to like 275 Frost Resist before using the FrR juju.

I would also like to see Naxx play out being a bit tougher than AQ40 was, but I'm not sure Sapphiron will cut it. Kioshi's idea of increasing boss hp by 25% and then having it decay is an interesting one.. but it also means players will quickly clear Naxx exponentially faster once they have the T3 gear AND the hp buff is removed. Maybe just a permanent 10% hp buff and no world buffs for a few weeks would be a good place to start.
 

voidzone

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#15
You wanna do sapphiron in full statless greens? It should be buffed (hp+aura) enough to require at least some frozen rune gear, which will mean a sort of much needed cockblock in naxx.
 
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#16
blizzard numbers only

stop messing with shit

not many are playing vanilla wow for difficulty, vanilla wow is easier than retail. if you have a vision of a custom tuned difficult version of vanilla wow, you announce it from the start and set the expectation. you sold the community on blizz-like. if i want vanillagayming or feenix numbers id play there.

every single thing kronos has custom tinkered with has had the opposite effect. for example i camped black lotus spots in several zones and then they added 90 extra spawn spots in each zone and it drove away my competition and i was able to farm an additional 1800 more with no competition. lotus price went from 25-30g at the time to 90+g on horde side.
 
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#17
It's important that random 5 people herbing in burning steppes can randomly spot a lotus once per year with higher chance now, Fei.

It costing 3 times as much for 99% other people who were always buying it doesn't matter. It's so much better now!
 
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In front of my computer.
#19
We should just accept that with the current state of the players, compared to back in 2006, it isn't possible to experience Naxx the same way people did in 2006. People are better now, that is true, but adding artificial difficulty to the bosses in the form of additional health/damage will not bring back the 2006 experience of Naxx; as with most memories from that time period, the experience won't be the same because the playerbase isn't the same. Nothing can be changed about that.
 

shard

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#20
If any of you believe that staying true to "Blizzlike values" is more important than attempting to give the Kronos community a Blizzlike experience, then I'm sorry, but you're horribly mistaken. If Kronos releases Naxx without any customization to increase difficulty, then it's going to be a massively-underwhelming LFR-like experience, and it'll be the final nail in the coffin for many of us who are on the fence regarding whether or not to stick around for a Kronos TBC.

While they might have failed to get other things right throughout vanilla, and the ensuing expansions, Blizzard devs usually did their due diligence in getting boss HP correctly tuned prior to the launch of a new raid. One of the major reasons why Naxx (vanilla), and Ulduar (WotLK) are commonly remembered as two of the best raid dungeons ever is because of how precisely the boss fights were tuned. Patchwerk is a great example. There wasn't a single guild in the world that went in there and 1-shot Patchwerk. EVERY guild wiped to his berserk timer at least once. Many above average, and even some of the top guilds wiped to the berserk timer for days, and even weeks, because they just didn't have the dps to kill it in time. Eventually, after gearing up from the other wings, and making adjustments to optimize their raids, they were able to just barely do it. It was a huge challenge, and it was fun.

Patchwerk is just one example of how well-tuned retail Naxx was. There are numerous others. Thaddius's berserk was so fine-tuned that if you lost more than 3-4 people to polarity fuck ups, you weren't going to make it in time. Loatheb was tuned so precisely that when you killed it the first few times, you were usually down to the next tick of Inevitable Doom being the raid wiper. Even one of the entry bosses--Noth was difficult for a lot of guilds at the initial release, because they didn't have the dps to kill him before the 2nd or 3rd teleport phase.

My point is this:

Precise tuning = challenging = fun/memorable
Undertuned content = LFR mode = not fun, and forgettable


If the Kronos staff decides not to customize boss hp values, then we're going to have the latter: an LFR-like snoozefest that everyone breezes through and clears in one week of raiding. Why? Because it was 2006 then, and it's 2017 now, and even without world buffs, our overall raid dps is so much higher than even the <Death and Taxes> and <Nihilum>s of the world, who were a class above everyone back in retail progression. You've all already experienced it in MC, BWL, and AQ. Our dps is so much higher than back in retail that we can ignore many of the main mechanics in all three of those raids, and the same will unfortunately be true in Naxx.

Some maths:

2006 Patchwerk Raid comp and dps:
4 tanks, 16 healers, 20 dps
3.9 mil boss hp, 7 minute berserk timer = ~460 raid dps (excluding tanks) minimum to kill before berserk

Most top guilds' first few Patchwerk kills went right up to, or several seconds after the berserk timer, so 460 raid dps is a solid estimate for a 2006 Patchwerk-style fight.

2017 (estimated) Patchwerk raid dps:
4 tanks, 12 healers, 24 dps
IF 600 average dps = 864,000 damage per minute = ~4.5 minute kill length

3 tanks, 10 healers, 27 dps
IF 600 average dps = 972,000 damage per minute = ~4 minute kill length

4 tanks, 12 healers, 24 dps
IF 700 average dps = 1,008,000 damage per minute = ~3 min 52 second kill length

3 tanks, 10 healers, 27 dps
IF 700 average dps = 1,134,000 damage per minute = 3 minute 26 second kill length

Since there has been no actual dps testing/benchmarking done on Kronos in a controlled setting (no world buffs, 5-10 minute test length), the above are just arbitrary estimates. Average RDPS could be even higher than 600 - 700 for all I know.


Other notable Naxx boss HP values:
Noth - ~1.7 million hp
Heigan - ~1.8 million hp
Faerlina - ~1.3 million hp
Gluth - ~1.7 million hp

It's not fun if we can kill Patchwerk 4 minutes before his berserk timer the first time we fight him...
It's not fun if we can kill Noth before he does even one teleport phase...
It's not fun if we can kill Heigan before we get to do the dance phase...
It's not fun if we can kill Faerlina without needing to do anything with her adds...
It's not fun if we can kill Gluth before he casts the first Decimate...
The list can go on to include some huge mechanic from every boss that can be ignored because of dps...

Please--I implore you. Don't be content to leave things the way they are. Give us a challenge that we'll remember. Give us a more authentic Blizzlike experience in Naxx!

What I suggest:

1) No world buffs in Naxx (most people already agree with this one)
2) Buff trash mob and boss hp by a flat percent. Based on my own estimations, I recommend a 100% increase. If that ends up making certain fights impossible, then reducing hp is an easy change to make. Everyone is fine with nerfing a fight to make it beatable. People aren't usually fine, however, with buffing a fight to make it harder, after it's already been beaten. Starting out with a fight being too hard, is always better than starting out with it being too easy.

I also suggest that the Kronos devs use the same method that the Blizzard devs used on their own PTRs to gather information to use for boss tuning. Blizzard devs contacted a select few of the top guilds, got them on the PTR and in front of a Patchwerk dummy, and told them to go all out for 10 minutes, to test realistic overall raid dps, and to see how each class was performing. They used that information to tune the fights in whatever the upcoming raid was, and it worked extremely well.

Kronos devs should do the same thing. Throw a Patchwerk dummy somewhere on the PTR, and ask guilds to volunteer to do "dps tests," to see what overall raid dps will look like. That information would be very valuable for estimating how long each different boss fight might last, and of course, which mechanics could then potentially be avoided. I'm fairly certain that the results would convince those of you who disagree that changes need to be made.


All I want is to see Kronos' version of Naxx be a success. Elysium already announced that they aren't going to do any customization. I see that as a huge mistake, and I don't want to see Kronos make it too. This is Kronos' chance to give the community a challenge that many will remember for years--but only if Naxx is done right. Please don't make the same mistake Elysium is making, or else you're going to have a lot of angry players saying saying the same thing after clearing Naxx: "That's it? That's what I waited 2 years for? What a joke..." Please do what's in the best interest for Kronos' future, and BUFF NAXX.
 

Horo

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#21
it'll be the final nail in the coffin for many of us who are on the fence regarding whether or not to stick around for a Kronos TBC.
You might not believe it, but after the most recent developments within the private server scene with regards to TBC, I think Twinstar is one of the - if not THE - best option left.
 

xposed

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#23
Lmao reminded me of these videos.. Our first kills awhile after we entered Naxx and cleared Spider Wing and Razuvious xd Everyone was so excited to actually kill it :D We were mediocre guild but when it comes down to actual raiding/killing bosses, had way more fun then killing C'Thun first ID here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2us6hkWnaqs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKKvNWIOe1I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hspFctrLXeQ
dis valhalla rising and final exit merged guild
rating by default quality and ui i thought its something from retail lol
 

DarkStorm

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#24
Thanks for taking the time to write this up and I really hope the devs are listening. If it ends up being too difficult you can nerf it in hindsight for the more casual guilds. It will not kill them to have to wait a few weeks for them to be able to kill the bosses.
 
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