• Dear Guest,

    You're browsing our forum as a Guest meaning you can only see a portion of the forum in read-only mode.
    To view all forum nodes and be able to create threads/posts please register or log-in with your existing account.

    TwinStar team

Buff Naxx

Indeed, we have rather good latency in here!
cdfd522956.png

I don't see how it devalues any of my worries, though.
 
Indeed, we have rather good latency in here!
cdfd522956.png

I don't see how it devalues any of my worries, though.

Your worries are warranted. What I'm saying is that it could be worse than a couple procs being out of line.

[video=youtube;R_UmcOEeJbs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_UmcOEeJbs&feature=youtu.be[/video]
 
Well thought out and said Shard, I hope your post isn't overlooked by the staff and if possible they consider you to help crunching some numbers out to best tune Naxx for Kronos even if this means stepping off the "Blizlike" path for the good of the project and its community.
 
disagree with a overtuned naxx.

you're gonna lose people quicker that way.

hard is not going to increase longevity.

only thing that will increase longevity is the promise of tbc. look at the attrition that happened to elysium because of aq40. theres a reason theyre not overtuning naxx because they overtuned aq40 and player attrition was rampant.
 
Fei, I wholeheartedly disagree.

I can't speak to how you feel, or how members of your guild feel about the difficulty of Naxx--but I can tell you how I feel. If we're given an LFR-level-diffuclty Naxx that's cleared by practically every guild on the server within a week, then I'm done. I won't stick around for a second week, and I know I'll be far from the only one. I have too many great memories of the sheer challenge, and feelings of accomplishment that came from clearing retail vanilla Naxx, to tarnish them with the utter disappointment that will inevitably result from an undertuned version.

Perhaps you (and others) haven't realized this yet, but for many people, the only reason they're still playing on Kronos is because they're clinging to this fine thread of hope that Kronos' Naxx is going to be the same kind of epic adventure that they've been reading about since 2006, but were never able to fully experience for themselves. They all know that Kronos' MC, BWL, and AQ are a complete joke in terms of difficulty, but they bite their tongue every week and say nothing, because they think Naxx is going to be completely different, and that difference will be enough to make up for the two full years of LFR raiding, content delays, sever instability, and lack of communication that they've had to endure while waiting. But unless some sort of custom tuning is done, there's not going to be an epic adventure. There's not going to be any sense of accomplishment. We're going to clear the whole raid in 4 hours, and then stop to reflect on the journey: "So that's Naxx huh? Well what a fucking joke. All those people who glorified this place as the hardest and most awesome raid Blizzard ever created are complete morons."

I'll let you guys in on a secret. All those people who glorify Naxx as one of the best raids ever created--well, they were right. It was. Every time my retail guild set foot in there, it felt like we were doing something epic--something special. Every time we killed bosses like Loatheb, Gothik, 4H, Sapphiron, and Kel'thuzad, there was this huge feeling of accomplishment that never diminished after the second kill, or third kill, or the final kill before TBC launched. There was just nothing else like it. And now Kronos has the chance to give our community a similar experience. I don't want to see them blow it.

I'll repeat this again: Challenge --> Sense of accomplishment --> FUN/ENJOYMENT

I don't care if Elysium tried and failed at bringing the hardcore element back to 40 mans. That was AQ, the most hated vanilla raid, and this is Naxx. How many of those Elysium players had already done AQ on Kronos, and were already sick of it after clearing it once over there? How many of their raiders were already spoiled by the lack of challenge on Kronos, and just cba to do a version that required more effort and time? How many players quit, and guilds died due to natural attrition, not difficulty induced attrition? I don't have the answer to those questions, do you?

The bottom line is that Naxx is Kronos' last chance to restore the faith that players once had in it. If Naxx is challenging and memorable, then it'll go a long way toward accomplishing that goal. If Naxx is disappointingly easy, then there might not be enough players left after a few months to justify programming a TBC server. Which would you prefer?
 
same arguments from vanillagaming and feenix forums. failed experiments.

dont care about fantasy roleplaying dream eyed nostalgia feels

doing something hard is super fun once. i plan on playing here for awhile after naxx. if its overtuned myself and the onslaught core will not be incentived to farm a chore that requires obtuse amounts of consumes on a weekly basis. required min/maxing and high weekly upkeep on consumes will accelerate an already burned out raiding core.
 
If all people are using all world buffs and complain content was too easy, it is their own fault. Surely naxx will not be the biggest challenge, even without wbuffs, but it should be a bit harder. Second to that if you really want the challenge you can do what a guild related to the greedygoblin page (iirc) did in tbc, just try the whole thing in blues, for example. I understand you Shard that you are completely bored and your guild will definately clear naxx very fast, but there are also other guilds who are not as good as yours and they WILL struggle. Further I agree with Fei.
 
Why don't you two agree on a middle ground? It should be harder than blizzlike, I'm sure 99% of the server agrees with that. But it shouldn't be like Shard says that we should be forced to work around tight enrage timer even with fully optimized raid.
 
the sad reality is the difficulty is farming consumables, materials for resistance gear, and most importantly people management. you can give all bosses maximum spell resistance and 9000 armor like Elysium's aq40 and then triple boss hps, disable world buffs and shorten enrage timers. it will still all be cleared in 1 day and nothing can change that unless a boss is scripted so poorly its actually impossible. the reality is nothing can change that.

just like i tell my guild on cthun phase 2. everything up top is an illusion that doesnt matter, the actual boss fight are the 2 tentacles with almost no hps in the stomach. everything up top is busy work that is the greek myth of sisyphus pushing a rock uphill for no reason. so is difficulty in vanilla wow. making a raid very difficult, the actual cost and toll is the pre-raid maintenance, the consumable farming and maintaining the difficulties within the personalities in the guild. no raid instance kills a guild. only thing that brings down guilds are the guilds themselves. overtuning a raid is a price paid in non-surface taxes that take their toll in under the surface ways.

having all 40 people require 4 greater shadow protection potions per attempt on an overtuned loatheb, on top of requiring full flask of titans and other consumables is not a fun thing to do every week. or playing raid composition tetris to swap in and out classes for every boss which is what happens in retail wow is not fun. 25 mages and locks for this boss. 25 warriors and rogues for this one. 3 healers needed here, 15 on this fight. not fun to min max.
 
I don't think you can appoint Elysium's population drop on just one single matter, especially the raid difficulty which I believe played a rather minor role in the ordeal. You have to consider that they released multiple servers competing with each other, had all kind of drama, new flavor of the month servers popping up and draining the players, the initial hype for it died out, etc.

I think shard raises some valid points, although I doubt that a difficult Naxxramas is going to magically save Kronos for a longer period of time or drastically increase the population. However, a buffed Naxx would allow the existing population to have a more memorable experience clearing it. Obviously it would come at the cost of further delaying the release, as they'd have to rework/change values and think about valid figures, etc.

On the other hand, the guilds or rather the leaders who are the most invested in the server first kills are obviously opposing it as a buffed Naxxramas would further stall the race and increase stress. And at this point, those guilds are a fairly large part of the raiding populace, although I doubt most of their raiders support of this notion.

Maybe a vote about it would be the best way to see how the community feels.

EDIT: On the concept of farming a difficult instance for a longer while, I think the suggestion where Naxx would start out fairly buffed up, but then gradually drop down to blizzlike levels a couple weeks after the firstkills was the best one this far. But the whole thing is kind of a double-edged blade, people will get bored farming overly easy content, and quit if the content requires too much farming/effort to be feasible for a longer while.
 
Last edited:
i can because we have people who raid on both servers. ex-kronos horde na guild Sorry, for example, disbanded this month on elysium because it was too much of a chore to continue to play on the server and the guild disbanded. no one was having fun reclearing it. people have pointed out that they have heard my voice raid leading on the top horde guild over there. their overtuned aq40 was still immediately cleared on release and its not fun to continuously do it.

- - - Updated - - -

EDIT: On the concept of farming a difficult instance for a longer while, I think the suggestion where Naxx would start out fairly buffed up, but then gradually drop down to blizzlike levels a couple weeks after the firstkills. But the whole thing is kind of a double-edged blade, people will get bored farming overly easy content, and quit if the content requires too much farming/effort to be feasible for a longer while.
I agree, I want to point that i state in exact verbatim from a few posts up where i say: "only thing that will increase longevity is the promise of tbc"

if its blizzlike people will do it, farm it for awhile and eventually server dies up. if its really hard the same thing happens just much faster.
 
I think I remember some of the SORRY people complaining about how Kronos was extremely undertuned and boring? Or maybe it was some of the K2 people. I admit this is a bit of a generalization, but people with a certain mindset will never be pleased on vanilla private servers, because they're simply looking for something that isn't there. Blizzard hadn't quite grasped how to make bossfights yet, and the lack of pve rotations/cooldowns numbs down the game a lot. A good bossfight is one where you have to allocate your resources and which requires as many of the utility cooldowns to be used/properly timed in reaction to boss mechanics. SORRY is also one guild, from what I understood that server had its population drop in thousands? I doubt they all left because of the AQ40.

But to support your example, there was a WoTLK server which released extremely buffed encounters, and almost impossible content. Some of the pve nerds were rather excited about it at first, but once the L80 Naxx was cleared a few times most of the people didn't want to go back anymore, and just quit. And yet, Feenix was able to survive for years with multiple class bugs and extremely buffed encounters and KT being unkillable due to a bug for years. In my personal opinion the buffed content was more fun/memorable to clear, but it also wasn't as special as people might try to make it be. The vanilla community simply had a different ideology back then.

In the end, I don't think either of these happened just because of how the pve content was tuned, but rather because the servers happened to exist in a window of time that either allowed or disallowed flourishing population. A private server's longevity seems to be mostly decided by the currently running trends in the private server community, even more now with all the recent social media attention around the realms.

The transition into BC would also need to be handled properly for it to be a success. There are a lot of vanilla players who are just interested in playing vanilla, and especially on a low-mid population realm like Kronos, it would be vital to attract new players for the BC version of the realm. Also splitting up the already diminished community into two competing BC realms under the same project as was discussed in that other topic, feels like a horrible idea. I think they should advertise it as a fresh BC realm with possibility for the Kronos players to proceed into with their vanilla characters, rather than a continuation of the vanilla Kronos.
 
Keep naxx in blizzlike stat values and disable world buffs and you clowns will have your enjoyable moments. Close this thread.
 
You're basing your opinion on hearsay from SORRY--the same guild that quit Kronos because raids were too easy, and then quit Elysium because were too hard? They sound like quite the credible and reputable bunch. Unfortunately, there are guilds like them out there, who are never satisfied. Regardless of whether a server is shit, or is the best ever scripted, they burn themselves out after a few months, and then move on to whatever the next hyped private server project is. What about all the other players on Elysium who haven't quit? Have you asked them how they feel about the difficulty level of AQ?

Sure, you can argue that Elysium announcing no customization of Naxx is an acknowledgment of failure in AQ, but you have to keep in mind that they chose to test their difficulty changes on the most hated vanilla raid (mistake #1), and they implemented most of them AFTER the raid had already been cleared by a number of guilds (mistake #2). How do you think Kronos players would react if the staff decided to significantly buff the difficulty of AQ40 after the expectation of an LFR-like experience had already (and has already) been set? I'm sure a lot of players would be furious, and a number of guilds would likely disband within a few months.

How many vanilla servers out there have attempted to make Naxx challenging? According to Topmong, there was one (feenix), and in his personal opinion as someone who played there and experienced what it was like, he felt it was successful. If they were able to do it, then why can't Kronos--with better scripting and a better community--be even better?

I'm not arguing that Kronos' Naxx should be so challenging that only a fully-consumed and optimized raid is able to clear it on a weekly basis. For the first clear, to an extent, yes, but not for farming it on a weekly basis. That wasn't even the case back in retail. As we accumulated Naxx gear, the fights gradually became easier and easier--to the point where we were killing Patchwerk a full minute before his berserk, and healers weren't needing to flask. We also weren't needing to go world buff for Loatheb, Sapphiron, and Kel'thuzad to have any chance at killing them. A couple shadow pots for Loatheb, and a stack of Frost pots for Sapph and KT, and beyond the normal assortment of consumes, that was pretty much it for our weekly Naxx prep. Is that too hardcore, or too much to ask from Kronos players? I hope not...

Though I'm not a huge fan, I think I would be ok with what Topmong suggested: having Naxx start out really challenging, and progressively reduce the difficulty over time--like they did for heroic ICC in WotLK. If Kronos decides to go that route, I would suggest something like this: have Naxx out very difficult (+100% or so hp to all mobs), and then after two to three months of allowing natural progression to take its course, begin bi-weekly 5% hp nerfs, for the next 2.5 months (10 total nerfs), until mob hp is only +50% over Blizzlike values. Anything lower than +50%, with full Naxx gear, consumes, and possibly the re-introduction of world buffs, and they might as well just disable all boss mechanics as well...
 
same arguments from vanillagaming and feenix forums. failed experiments.
How was Feenix a "failed experiment"? Different generations of guilds were progressing and playing Naxx for up to five years there - newer guilds would spend months on end striving to achieve what the more experienced guilds were doing. The more difficult the content was - the more desirable the rewards became, and that's what seemed to motivate players. All while keeping a donation shop open on the side - if that's not a private server success story then I don't know what is. Certainly not Kronos because judging from the short time I was able to keep my attention span ingame and on the forums - it's a total joke.
 
LUL @ everyone saying "Naxx will be faceroll" when they couldn't kill bosses in Naxx PTR with 50% damage increase on mobs and 50% damage decrease by mobs, and all consumables possible including world-buffs.
 
The problem with buffing bosses is it will freeze out newer guilds who haven't been farming BWL and AQ for a year prior. They will have literally no chance if bosses are tuned for the best guilds dps. Less geared guilds should still have the possibility of downing the odd boss or two just like they could in retail. I also agree that some are underestimating Naxx. That trash could be brutal on normal values. Rip buffs.


The only valid argument for buffing Naxx is the fact we've had a lot longer to farm gear and prepare than folks did on retail. That's fair enough. It would need to be done carefully though and not just lazily doubling boss hp. A tweak might be in order.


It's funny to me people talking about quitting if Naxx is Blizz-like and gets cleared on the 1st night. Really? I had a blast on the PTR. The raid is so much more interesting than AQ40 and many of us have been farming that for almost a year now. If you'd just quit after Naxx is cleared then I think you're just plain bored with Vanilla WOW.

PS: SORRY didn't leave cause they're all badasses and the content was too ez for them. They left cause almost the entire core of the guild came from Nost they got their toons back. It's just on the way out people like to make a big scene and point fingers.
 
having all 40 people require 4 greater shadow protection potions per attempt on an overtuned loatheb, on top of requiring full flask of titans and other consumables is not a fun thing to do every week. or playing raid composition tetris to swap in and out classes for every boss which is what happens in retail wow is not fun. 25 mages and locks for this boss. 25 warriors and rogues for this one. 3 healers needed here, 15 on this fight. not fun to min max.

This is what tuning up vanilla boils down to since outside buffs and consumables have too great impact on raid performance. What you are describing above is exactly the Lordaeron WotlK server. It was fun clearing bosses exactly ONCE. Sure, the server still has 4k players, down from 12k or whatever it was.
 
The only challenging content in this version of the game is having to put up with the other people who play it. I wasn't hardcore enough to conquer that content.

No one's fault but your own if you desire some romanticised delusion of Naxxramas being the hardest most tuned raid ever created by looking at people clearing it without 10+ years of knowledge of the game to hand.

Go wipe 100+ times a night learning a boss in retail for your challenging content.
 
This is what tuning up vanilla boils down to since outside buffs and consumables have too great impact on raid performance. What you are describing above is exactly the Lordaeron WotlK server. It was fun clearing bosses exactly ONCE. Sure, the server still has 4k players, down from 12k or whatever it was.

I'm not advocating that Naxx be tuned to be so hard that it requires your raid to be fully flasked and consumed every week. As guilds get more Naxx gear, and more experience with the encounters, then it'll naturally get easier over time--to the point where the consumable requirements are much more lenient.

But it still needs to be hard. Much harder than the current raids. If we get another faceroll LFR-difficulty raid like the Kronos version of MC, BWL, and AQ40 are, then that's going to be it for a lot of people...
 
I'm not advocating that Naxx be tuned to be so hard that it requires your raid to be fully flasked and consumed every week. As guilds get more Naxx gear, and more experience with the encounters, then it'll naturally get easier over time--to the point where the consumable requirements are much more lenient.

But it still needs to be hard. Much harder than the current raids. If we get another faceroll LFR-difficulty raid like the Kronos version of MC, BWL, and AQ40 are, then that's going to be it for a lot of people...

That's pretty much the issue. The gap between AQ and Naxx releases is too big, the gear on people too good and the right click mechanics too godlike for Naxxgear alone to make a big difference, maybe after a similar long farm session of 12 months in Naxxwings and I am not sure if waiting for your 12th Kiss of the Spider to beat the Patchwerk enrage timer is my definition of precisely tuned/fun/challenging.

Somehow gimping the current state of dps by either removing buffs or increasing HP/armor/resistances of npcs is just an excuse from Kronos devs that failed to realise their Naxx release comes too late. I am not sure if placing a Patchwerk dummy somewhere and having 40 people bashing it delivers the kind of numbers needed to find the balance between making stuff demanding and straight up a consumable check every week. Either way, that's what a PTR would be useful for instead of what most guilds are doing there.

Would it be fun to farm up some gear first to clear Naxx? Sure. Has that ship sailed after 12 months of AQ farming? Possibly.

Maybe the
hamsterwave.gif
Songflower Fix
hamsterwave.gif
can be reinstated to reduce raiddamage.
 
I've seen enough on the ptr to tell me guilds will be wiping plenty in Naxx at normal values. Just because a couple guilds are speed running the current content after years of practice doesn't mean they will do the same in Naxx.
 
I've seen enough on the ptr to tell me guilds will be wiping plenty in Naxx at normal values. Just because a couple guilds are speed running the current content after years of practice doesn't mean they will do the same in Naxx.

How much time have you spent on the PTR, and with what guild? A Patchwerk with WotLK Hateful Strike mechanics, a bugged Gluth, and a Thaddius that was completely broken for most of the Abom PTR is good enough for you to assert your confidence in how challenging Naxx will be? Not sure what your experience was like, but after two full raid nights of PTR testing both Spider and Abom wing, I am extremely concerned about the level of difficulty. Even the least geared, and least experienced guilds on Kronos will breeze through most encounters in Naxx the way it is right now, simply because our higher-than-retail dps will allow them to disregard major mechanics, and not be punished for a handful of deaths from poor play, that should result in a wipe if the encounters were tuned to last longer than the typical 30-60 seconds that most the current boss fights last for...
 
Top Bottom