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Discussion about changing MC Raidtuning

Same here, I would be against modifying the difficulty of the raids. Make them work just like they were back in the good old days, that will be enough of a challenge, especially from BWL and beyond.
 
Just be blizzlike, no need for this.

I agree, even if mc is really easy, id hate it to be changed, if you really want to make it hard, like others did in vanilla, then go hardcore and raid it with 25, 20, 15, 10, or even 5 lol if you want the extra challenge, no need to adjust it,its perfect how it is, its just fun. Wait for the harder raids like AQ and NAXX :biggrin:

Id strongly suggest doing anouther poll for this topic, as it should be up the players whether or no this server stops or continues to be "blizzlike".
 
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Id strongly suggest doing anouther poll for this topic, as it should be up the players whether or no this server stops or continues to be "blizzlike".

Blizzlike ~ blizzcopy

Either way it is a good point to say that if people want it harder do it with less people. It means more loot for you so what's the problem?
 
It's fun to read this. Aparently, you don't read everything on these forums. Month ago, there was passionate discussion about how easy MC is and how it should be buffed to revive the "old feeling". Now, there is another one, which says otherwise. I'm sure, that IF MC will be ever buffed, then it will be based on players performace on live server.

I think, that if there is a boss, that never wiped any raid, then he can be buffed a bit, because he's obviously easy.
 
It's fun to read this. Aparently, you don't read everything on these forums. Month ago, there was passionate discussion about how easy MC is and how it should be buffed to revive the "old feeling". Now, there is another one, which says otherwise. I'm sure, that IF MC will be ever buffed, then it will be based on players performace on live server.

I think, that if there is a boss, that never wiped any raid, then he can be buffed a bit, because he's obviously easy.

I'm going to give you a hint; there are different people writing posts with different opinions on this forum.
It's just that most people don't spend their days arguing this stuff on the forum for a "under development" server which they don't know whether to settle for or not.

I'm sure there's still a bunch of people who thinks different about the idea. And again, the forum discussions only represent a very vocal minority of the player base.
 
And this is why /gkick was invented

Enjoy kicking half your guild with those settings and mindset, because 10 years later most players still don't know how to click dispell and/or move their characters out of fire.
 
I feel like I should write a post with my final thoughts on this topic, I was the guy that started the original thread that inspired this change I guess.

It 100% boils down to what the players want, most likely the best thing for Chero and his team to do is to release 1.12 tuned MC/BWL, because it appears it is what the majority would like. This is where things get interesting and I will try my best to convince you why this won't bring back the vanilla you knew or heard about from other players.

I want to point out that pre-activision this was not the way blizzard did things, doing what the majority want. They made the choice to balance end-game raiding for the top 5% of raiders and if you want to argue against this point then I will just bring up the point of how few guilds even killed C'thun, even long after naxx was released (your opinion may differ depending on what server you were on).

I will warn you that when you listen to the lowest common denominator, you WILL get a game that looks how retail does now (difficulty-wise). That's not to say there isn't very challenging content in retail with the end mythic bosses, but 95% of the game all the way up to that point is a complete facebook tuned game (leveling mobs, dungeons, "heroic mode"). So you have 95% of the game tuned for the "casual"/normal players, and 5% tuned for the core raiders which is the best way to do it business-wise, because the percentage of difficult content matches the same percentage as those players. However this massively sucks because for core raiders, you basically have a tiny amount of content aimed at you, it's difficult to justify spending a monthly fee when you are not the target audience of 95% of the content in the game. But that does not matter to blizzard, because if 5% of players quit the game over this then they still have the 95% to profit from.

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What I will say is I am slightly disappointed to see how few core raiders seem to turn up to these servers, when most of you want a 1.12 server and not a progressive server. Most of us have moved on it seems, but some of us cannot find a true replacement for old wow, because it does not exist anymore in the mmorpg genre.

And no, releasing all the bosses post-nerf 1.12 is not a progressive server. If you do that and gradually release the raids, then it is a limited content server, where your core raiders don't have anything to do but anticipate AQ40, which is the first raid that poses any challenge & fun in 1.12. You can all spout the buzzword "Blizzlike" a thousand times over, but the fact that AQ and Naxx does not exist in your 1.12 server is not blizzlike. It is time to accept the fact that if you want the real deal, then you're going to have to adjust some things in the year 2015, 10 years after the games initial release. People have changed if you have not already noticed.

If people want Feenix vanilla 1.12.1 private server wow v2.0 with actual working scripts and non-corrupt staff then as it stands you've found it, but that is not progressive vanilla, it is not "1.0" (figuratively speaking).

I'm sorry guys, but if your vanilla raiding experience goes as far as what you've seen on private servers so far then I have some bad news for you. Maybe its nostalgia taking its toll where you only remember the good parts of vanilla and none of the bad. The endless forum QQ that all the classes are unbalanced or have useless specs. The 100s of unfair wipes because the boss decided to crit/crush your tank twice in a row or taunt was resisted, good game try again. You've spent an hour on the boss wiping and all of the trash respawned, too bad clear it again. You've been wiping on Ragnaros for 2 hours? Aaaand he's gone. These are things that are designed to slow down progression and stop players from beating the content too quickly, or they risk having no content progression to do for months until the next update.
Newsflash: It is ok for frustrating/unfair/imbalanced aspects of the game like these to exist, because it is what makes the game so satisfying when you are finally victorious.

Without the endless wiping and therefore mandatory long consumables list, excessive farming is not a requirement. Old popular gold farming spots like Tyr's Hand are all but abandoned on private servers, because you do not need to farm a couple hundred gold a week on maintenance. There is less competition for herb spawns and world pvp suffers as a consequence in almost all high level zones bar blackrock mountain. It appears that the majority do not want the hardcore vanilla from 2005, they want the version that was designed to allow players to catch up on as much content as possible, as they are going to miss it otherwise due to the Burning Crusade expansion looming. Why do we need to rush through all the early content? The server will remain 1.12 forever, we have all the time in the world to wipe for weeks and farm a few thousand gold to beat the current content. Even if you do not have as much free time as you did as a kid, you too will eventually beat all the content if you play here for long enough, it is inevitable in a time-locked mmorpg.

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Why do below average guilds feel that it is their right to beat all of the content before the next raid is released? There are catch-up mechanisms in place which will be released in a future updates (D2, ZG, AQ20) that are designed to allow you to beat what you could not before. This is the mentality of the WoW players of today, and it is why multiple difficulty settings exist on retail, because you people want to beat all of the content when everyone else does and not feel left behind other guilds. This is what I like to call the opposite of a special snowflake or in a more degrading term, communism. That concept was not included in the design philosophy of vanilla, and it was better that way in my opinion.

Please do not bring up the point that fire resistance gear or Aqual Quintessence is going to slow any guild down much. Some of us have been in the private server scene for over 5 years now and have seen exactly how progression pans out after enough players in a single guild have reached level 60. I don't care how perfect you think the scripting is, because at the end of the day the problem is not a coding flaw, it is a problem in the patch that your server is running on.

Also tuning the raid after release is a very bad idea, it breaks the satisfaction of progression when you have already beaten the boss, and I am certain that I am not alone when I say that I would be happy to test and help fine tune your raids before the server is launched to get the difficulty curve right.

Vanilla was not a golden egg, it was a golden egg surrounded by a river of lava, a pit of spikes and guarded by hungry T-rex's. These are the things that made vanilla great, the sheer difficulty, time consuming and unfairness of the entire game. Challenge brings people closer together, wiping is a big part of the experience even if it seems frustrating at the time, this I wish more people understood. You will never get your taste of true vanilla without these elements, its a perfect pie with only half of the ingredients.

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Those of us old hardcore raiders who are scattered, wandering looking for a home who still believe that pre-activision wow was the best mmorpg to exist are out of luck when it comes to vanilla, because a server has never existed for us, peroid. I find this ironic because raiding was originally designed to appeal to exactly these kinds of players (the original everquest crowd), yet the developers of most private servers either fail to realize or on purpose balance the game to be even easier than retail, appealing to only the absolute lowest end of the spectrum or pvpers that don't give a shit about pve and just want their gear asap.

The first server to exist that these kind of players can call home will be Corecraft, which is the first true 2.0 progressive TBC server. But deep down I and many others who prefer vanilla over TBC long for the day that a true "1.0" progressive vanilla server exists that we can come home to.

I guess you can call this my final attempt at convincing those of you who have forgotten, or were not there to experience what it was all about, where vanilla wow got its reputation from. Most will probably disagree here and that is fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. You will all have fun here regardless and this will probably be an awesome server for you guys, because you are the target audience.
 
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Why do we need to rush through all the early content? The server will remain 1.12 forever, we have all the time in the world to wipe for weeks and farm a few thousand gold to beat the current content. Even if you do not have as much free time as you did as a kid, you too will eventually beat all the content if you play here for long enough, it is inevitable in a time-locked mmorpg.

Thissss
 
if mc and ony are harder, this means less people will be ahead of me on the gear curve.

maybe. im down with tier one being OMG for like 6 months. since im not a hardcore raider anymore that sounds great for me
 
Maltx: Word up man. Agree with literally every word and it's exactly my opinion on the matter. Cited only some parts, which are especially worth reading twice.

You can all spout the buzzword "Blizzlike" a thousand times over, but the fact that AQ and Naxx does not exist in your 1.12 server is not blizzlike. It is time to accept the fact that if you want the real deal, then you're going to have to adjust some things
(...)
It appears that the majority do not want the hardcore vanilla from 2005, they want the version that was designed to allow players to catch up on as much content as possible, as they are going to miss it otherwise due to the Burning Crusade expansion looming. Why do we need to rush through all the early content? The server will remain 1.12 forever, we have all the time in the world to wipe for weeks and farm a few thousand gold to beat the current content. Even if you do not have as much free time as you did as a kid, you too will eventually beat all the content if you play here for long enough, it is inevitable in a time-locked mmorpg.
(...)
I don't care how perfect you think the scripting is, because at the end of the day the problem is not a coding flaw, it is a problem in the patch that your server is running on.
(...)
Also tuning the raid after release is a very bad idea, it breaks the satisfaction of progression when you have already beaten the boss, and I am certain that I am not alone when I say that I would be happy to test and help fine tune your raids before the server is launched to get the difficulty curve right.
(...)
Those of us old hardcore raiders who are scattered, wandering looking for a home who still believe that pre-activision wow was the best mmorpg to exist are out of luck when it comes to vanilla, because a server has never existed for us, peroid. I find this ironic because raiding was originally designed to appeal to exactly these kinds of players (the original everquest crowd), yet the developers of most private servers either fail to realize or on purpose balance the game to be even easier than retail, appealing to only the absolute lowest end of the spectrum or pvpers that don't give a shit about pve and just want their gear asap.

And finally:biggrin::
Vanilla was not a golden egg, it was a golden egg surrounded by a river of lava, a pit of spikes and guarded by hungry T-rex's.

Amen.
 
You've got my full support, Maltx. In every single bit. I'd love to have a true progressive server, with MC/Ony/BWL requiring 'some' dedication until War Effort is released.
 
OMG someone with an opinion who actually played RETAIL vanilla. Finally!:D

Pre-nerf MC/BWL? I'm all in for that. But here's the thing.

All boss mechanisms are a part of a complex equation, where modifing one variable just won't do. Think about how blizzard nerfed bosses and buffed items/talents at the same time. If it was doable just by tweaking the raid encounters just a tiny bit, I'm sure they would've done that, but apparently that's not how it works.

I too would love to see a progression server, where you can beat everything pre-nerf, then stuff gets what Blizzard had for them and we end up in the actual 1.12 environment. It all sounds very tempting. But.
In the vanilla private server scene, even a decent scripting is rare. Most of the servers even fail at copy-pasting 1.12 mechanisms, even though some of them even offers "progressive" releases, they're always poorly scripted and in almost every case a major letdown. Seeing how hard it is just to make a replica of the final version, I really doubt anyone would ever release a real progression server. Not to mention the fact, that there's like 20 of us total around the globe, who is part of that original 5%, who actually never got enough of vanilla. Would you work months/years for free, just to satisfy 20 random geek's needs?:D Well if I knew how to start I would too, because I miss vanilla that much, but sadly I don't. And I don't expect anyone else to do that. Even Blizzard wouldn't do that again..

Beating bosses in their pre/nerf state is a really cool idea, though I don't see it ever happening the way you expect it. What you really want is a 1.1.2/1.2.3 server with blizzlike patching and all that. That's what's not gonna happen, because come on.. Be realistic.

Again, I love your/the idea, but I don't think it would ever work the way people imagine it. Right now, after spending many-many years on inferior private servers trying to relive the vanilla experience all I hope for is a decent 1.12 replica, with the Kronos-like progressive release. Yes, MC/BWL were way to easy. After Naxx release mages got 6% fire/frost hit from talent.. Technially you don't even need gear to be hit capped anymore, how fun that is.. Every nub can run around if full t2/R14 gear, but after the AQ release, that won't be a problem anymore, so just hold your breath and wait:D
 
If people want Feenix vanilla 1.12.1 private server wow v2.0 with actual working scripts and non-corrupt staff then as it stands you've found it, but that is not progressive vanilla, it is not "1.0" (figuratively speaking).

Sorry, but as Vanilla lover I cannot support this idea. I like the original game as it is.

I agree with the decision to leave raids as they were when patch 1.12 was live. I for one, and i'm sure i'm not the only one here, am interested in kronos because of the unique opportunity it offers to play Vanilla as it was in all its glory.

this is a bad idea

Well, but how can you struggle at something that is so easy that community want it buffed?

Even if people try and blitz MC asap upon release, it will still take a lot of time. Plus I don't see the big issue if people do blitz MC. MC is an easy, simple instance.

This. +1. I see no problem in the intro raid being exactly that, and intro raid.

Last two posts pretty much hit the nail on the head for me.

Well, why not leave the mechanics untouched and change the mindset of the community?

You can always do MC with only 30 people or - perhaps the better choice - stop min-maxing and allow off-specs to raid (e.g. Ret-Paladins, Disc/Shadow Priest). That would automatically make it a little harder.

Yes, apparently people want Feenix WoW 2.0. Being a WoW clone was hugely unsuccessful for all of WoW's competitors. What sort of optimism should we have for Kronos being a Feenix clone?

Do people not forget how MC works?

It is funny that this poster is one of the many (and i cannot stress that word enough) ignorant posters on Kronos forums. Get your head out of your ass, read about Molten Core when it was the pinnacle of raiding, and then join my side of the argument.

I don't care how perfect you think the scripting is, because at the end of the day the problem is not a coding flaw, it is a problem in the patch that your server is running on.

And this is why a lot of private servers do not reach their true potential. They hire programmers. Programmers code the game. You need people who can design the game.

It is time to accept the fact that if you want the real deal, then you're going to have to adjust some things in the year 2015, 10 years after the games initial release.

I don't know exactly why i decided to check these forums again, after giving up on the hopeless Kronos project. But i am glad to see your post Maltx. Here's to us finding a true vanilla server. And if that proves to be impossible, maybe i'll just have to start a project myself ;).

Would you work months/years for free, just to satisfy 20 random geek's needs?:D Well if I knew how to start I would too, because I miss vanilla that much, but sadly I don't. And I don't expect anyone else to do that. [..]What you really want is a 1.1.2/1.2.3 server with blizzlike patching and all that. That's what's not gonna happen, because come on.. Be realistic.

I never played a lick of retail vanilla. But i would love to find a private server that offers a vanilla experience. Why would finding such a server never happen? I would imagine more than just 20 random geeks are like me and actually want to play vanilla WoW. I am sure there could exist a private server (at least in the future) offering vanilla experience.

The problem with a lot of private servers, this one included, is that the programers can't see the forest for the trees. It wouldn't take as long as you say (years) to create a 'true' vanilla server when you forgo the trivial details (exact timers on leveling instances, for example) and you embrace the true vanilla philosophy. Hell, even Blizzard sacrificed some things. Silithus was empty on release.

And no, Kronos is not vanilla WoW.
 
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Technicaly, Kronos Will be vanilla - patch 1.12.1 (client without expansion -> vanilla). Blizzlike scripting, spawns, drop rates, xp rates, etc...

But your problem is, that for you, it will not FEEL like vanilla, and, well, feeling is very subjective thing. For me it feels like vanilla and so it is vanilla. For you not, well, that's your problem.
 
Players complaining about the difficulty of raids on a server they have never played on... wtf.
 
At what point did blizzlike raiding get thrown out of the window? I think it will be a boss itself to gather 40 ppl to raid with in the first place, since advertising is bad and the community is pretty thin. It will probably be just as dead as Dalaran-wow is right now.

I hope i get proven wrong tho.
 
I never played a lick of retail vanilla. But i would love to find a private server that offers a vanilla experience. Why would finding such a server never happen? I would imagine more than just 20 random geeks are like me and actually want to play vanilla WoW. I am sure there could exist a private server (at least in the future) offering vanilla experience.

The problem with a lot of private servers, this one included, is that the programers can't see the forest for the trees. It wouldn't take as long as you say (years) to create a 'true' vanilla server when you forgo the trivial details (exact timers on leveling instances, for example) and you embrace the true vanilla philosophy. Hell, even Blizzard sacrificed some things. Silithus was empty on release.

And no, Kronos is not vanilla WoW.

I wouldn't say it's impossible technically, but no one will ever create such a thing because it would take forever and the result would be very unpredictable. Vanilla community is currently not large enough to fully appreciate the effort anyway. I'd even say that most of those guys wouldn't play it, because they know what pain it used to be at some early versions. There is really no point in recreating the game patch by patch. The experience would be more accurate, no doubt, but it would cost so much time for just a slightly more satisfaction for certain ppl (vanilla "virgins"). One stable version is optimal, it's more balanced, things work and it provides all the content. In some cases, especially when talking about private srvr vanilla, you must do compromises. Basically: "Vanilla? Yea. Perfect vanilla? Not a chance. Those days are gone."

BTW I think we can't really imagine how much work it is to create even one properly working version of the game. I think it would be a real pain to mess with every version - for players and especially for devs.

So yea, Kronos is not "true" vanilla WoW because, as someone has already mentioned, ppl are different now. We've experienced wow already and I can hardly imagine a person who'd like to suffer all those crappy versions again.
 
Players complaining about the difficulty of raids on a server they have never played on... wtf.

You usually say some reasonably smart things but this is pretty retarded. Surely you realise this yourself? Right?
 
Are you talking about Lharts? The same person who suggested raiding in greens as a solution to raiding MC in its original glory?

Well, Lharts is right about the fact that in order to reproduce the "vanilla" feeling, you would need to raid in worse gear, which should make it harder in MC, but it's still possible and happened back in the days, since there wasn't all the buffed gear from 1.12.1.
 
Technicaly, Kronos Will be vanilla

Not exactly. Not technically. At no point in time ever WoW actually looked like Kronos when it'll be released.

On retail, when there was only MC, new people on servers and no fully geared guilds(Kronos state on release), there were different talents, different gear, different conditions & other stuff.

When there were the same talents and same gear & other stuff as on Kronos(patch 1.12.1/2), there was already NAXX, there were guilds fully T2-geared, and all lesser raids were there just as a "gateway raid" to get everyone to the main endgame content.

You can't replicate retail vanilla WoW 1:1.

Funny thing though, hypothetically, that if we had the power, the people and the ability to revert all gear, talents, etc. to 1.0.0 state in matter of days and then progressively update it, no one would complain, despite it still being modification of 1.12.1 patch. But, at the same time, some of those same people would argue against slight tuning MC to the closest, most similar thing we can achieve. That being - have it in an appropriate state, worthy of the currently-only-raid on a server which will, theoretically, have no time limit whatsoever to finish all of its content. I just don't get why people want to rush through it.

TL;DR: The bold parts.


ps. I think, the biggest problem is that people are afraid that Kronos' staff won't be able to tune the raid correctly and will do it too much, overkill it and it'll be some kind of disaster like 6k+ dmg hitting boss with altered HP and brand new abilities he never had. I'm not afraid of that, I believe Chero & spol. Have some faith too, people.
 
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All of the bosses on Scriptcraft 1 and 2 were tuned to be more difficult. Gummy made that a point of pride.

Even with the tuning he did, which was around 20% more health and 20% more swing damage, guilds still cleared MC as soon as they had the tranqs and rep to put out runes.

MC isn't supposed to be hard, it's supposed to show that you can get 40 people together and have them perform basic raid tasks.

If anything BWL should be the raid that we're talking about tuning up. Razorgore should be a big gear and organization check, but on a lot of private servers he's a push over. Same thing with Vael. But if we're going to talk about tuning BWL, SC also had a tuned BWL and it was cleared by most guilds once they had the sand for Chromag.

You can add health to bosses, which really just adds time, and therefore will make every fight a mana intensive fight for healers, but then that's every single fight.

If you decide to add damage you run the risk of making bosses wreck tanks that they shouldn't. On SC tanks would get crit through shield block and be dead on fights that aren't supposed to be about boss swing damage.


I don't think the developers are going to spend time tuning raids when they could be working on just finishing the raids in general. Even if that means MC and BWL aren't hard AQ and Naxx will be. I would rather have every raid work correctly then have lesser scripting and more of a challenge. That's my opinion based on what I think the developers have time to do.

If they could start the server with tuned MC and BWL so that progression actually took a decent amount of time I would love that too, but at this point I just want to play a scripted server with the potential to play in a well scripted vanilla Naxx.
 
At what point did blizzlike raiding get thrown out of the window? I think it will be a boss itself to gather 40 ppl to raid with in the first place, since advertising is bad and the community is pretty thin. It will probably be just as dead as Dalaran-wow is right now.
I hope i get proven wrong tho.
Hey man why are you such a downer?

Thin community? Do you think everyone who comes here has an opinion and creates a forum account? Most people just want to play. And have you seen the 4k players that play on the other twinstar realms? Don't you think some of those will want to try out a fresh vanilla server? More people are learning of Kronos every day and hype will increase a lot when there is a release date.

Bad advertisement? Kronos is well represented on social media and getting more attention than competitors. Do you want advertisements in newspapers and on TV maybe? Best advertisement is still word of mouth, if you want to help get busy.

The smallest of servers have raiding guilds, it's about organising. If you have an average of 100 population online this means there are about 1000 active players on the server. That's plenty of people to organise raids with.

And some people in this topic need to calm down and stop getting personal, this is just a discussion thread. Have a little faith in the staff that they will do the right thing.

And heck if the bosses had a little more hp or did a little more dmg compared to 2004 you wouldn't even notice.
 
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