DPSMate - A combat analyzation tool
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Geigerkind
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Not really. Im selling a product for gold. Its not like Im giving you a few euros for it. Also according to the GMs it is fine and not against any rule.
Geigerkind
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Okay, I was just talking to Gurky and as it seems you are right. He seemed to missunderstood me when I asked him earlier. Fine.
I guess Im taking it down then, no addon then :>
I guess Im taking it down then, no addon then :>
Geigerkind
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Well Its a giving and taking. I could develop it just for myself and my guild or I could find a way where everyone is happy. And clearly there is a difference between 2 weeks of work and 8 months. For example MPowa/VCB/BuffCounter/ExpandAssist etc. All those addons I have released for everyone because I felt like people may want to use it as well. But in the most cases people are not even saying thanks. Therefore I decided to go for this way. I knew that this would make me infamous in the community but some people may want to invest some gold in order to push it to the max.
Also do you think Microsoft would give out their Windows 10 for free because they are so in love with their community. I don't think so, judging the amount of ressources they have put into this.
Also do you think Microsoft would give out their Windows 10 for free because they are so in love with their community. I don't think so, judging the amount of ressources they have put into this.
Not to go too off-topic, but DKP is an out-of-game currency aswell. You can't acquire DKP in-game. You can acquire it outside of the game on some website. You can then spend that DKP on in-game commodities like equipment. In some guilds you can even earn DKP for donating gold to the guildbank. This is accepted by everyone, but theres really no difference between DKP and US dollars in this sense.
You may argue that the distinction is that DKP has no value outside of the game, but neither does DPSMate. Btw he ain't the first addon developer to earn gold this way. Anaron on Feenix had a topic where players could request Addons and he would then make them for them if they paid some in-game gold.
I don't see any issue in what Shino is doing here, but ofcourse if GM's says so then gotta follow the rules.
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You're a hobbyist programmer who spent part of his free time developing a modification to an addon for a 12 year old game. Both MPowa and this are modifications of already existing addons, if anyone should be rewarded it's the original authors. Comparing yourself to Microsoft is horribly narcissistic and shows a serious lack of self distance.
Sure, you could keep it to yourself. But releasing it to "the wild" will allow others to contribute, in the form of finding and fixing bugs, feedback, etc etc.
I'm not sure why I'm even discussing this, if you don't want to share your stuff then don't.
@Smoker
I agree this is a gray-zone, but when you straight up charge gold for addons I think you're crossing the line. On the other hand I think asking for donations (in the code or here) would be fine, but I'm not the one making the call.
As for DKP one could argue that it's an in-game currency, since you can (usually) only gain it by doing in-game things, like attending raids and donating in-game gold.
Sure, you could keep it to yourself. But releasing it to "the wild" will allow others to contribute, in the form of finding and fixing bugs, feedback, etc etc.
I'm not sure why I'm even discussing this, if you don't want to share your stuff then don't.
@Smoker
I agree this is a gray-zone, but when you straight up charge gold for addons I think you're crossing the line. On the other hand I think asking for donations (in the code or here) would be fine, but I'm not the one making the call.
As for DKP one could argue that it's an in-game currency, since you can (usually) only gain it by doing in-game things, like attending raids and donating in-game gold.
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bl4ckc0d3r
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Funny you say that, but looks hypocritical.
For example in case of MPowa, you have "ideas" and "thanks" section where you mention people who suggested features to add to your addon. However, you gave me no credit for suggesting raid buff/debuff tracking and then telling you how to implement it (algorithmic idea & partial code) to speed the process up by an order of magnitude compared to your initial implementation. Much bigger contribution than what those others did.
You of course have the right to keep your work to yourself, and that is completely fine. But please be honest about it instead of saying it's to support your ingame activities while dedicating your time to addon development, just to follow it with a "Fine. No addon then." when you realized your idea of earning significant income using the addon wouldn't be legal. Be honest and upfront.
PS: Apologies for derailing the thread. I do not intend to continue doing so.
Geigerkind
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Yes, I have basically modified some addons, in this case MPowa (Thats why ist called Mpowa btw) and I have created new ones. Im not sure which addons you are talking about but I have not seen an addon yet having the abilities I am advertising this addon as. You may argue that it looks like Skada, SwStats, Dmgmeter, Reccount. Well that might be true, but because of that Dmgmeter, Reccount and Skada all those basically "upgraded" SwStats. I dont think so.
Also Im not comparing myself to because I am narcissistic. You know what an exaggeration is? I could have picked any product that is sold because people want their ressources to be rewarded.
Sure I could release it "in the wild", as you say. However that will result in non or very few appreation in terms of ingame resource support. I think it is an horrible view on the addon community in world of warcraft, If people are demanding the developer, the author to release their product for free, because that is how everyone does it right?
If poeple dont want a product, they dont buy it. That is fine. That is how things work. But If people want a product and they want to support the project, spending a few gold is not too much to ask right?
Edit for ermean :*
Oh, I didnt mean noone is showing their appreatiation, its just a very tiny fracture. That is what is annoying me. Yes, I added the feature you requested back then to my addon, but I didnt really change the system you suggested me too. Yes I did change it to a more performant one, because I had to. Also the support tab there does not mean that I write everyones name in there that suggested a feature to the addon. That would be too many.
And yes, I am sad that I cant have this income. This means that I cant dedicate my time to develop on this addon. Atleast not all of it. Which is a shame.
Also Im not comparing myself to because I am narcissistic. You know what an exaggeration is? I could have picked any product that is sold because people want their ressources to be rewarded.
Sure I could release it "in the wild", as you say. However that will result in non or very few appreation in terms of ingame resource support. I think it is an horrible view on the addon community in world of warcraft, If people are demanding the developer, the author to release their product for free, because that is how everyone does it right?
If poeple dont want a product, they dont buy it. That is fine. That is how things work. But If people want a product and they want to support the project, spending a few gold is not too much to ask right?
Edit for ermean :*
Oh, I didnt mean noone is showing their appreatiation, its just a very tiny fracture. That is what is annoying me. Yes, I added the feature you requested back then to my addon, but I didnt really change the system you suggested me too. Yes I did change it to a more performant one, because I had to. Also the support tab there does not mean that I write everyones name in there that suggested a feature to the addon. That would be too many.
And yes, I am sad that I cant have this income. This means that I cant dedicate my time to develop on this addon. Atleast not all of it. Which is a shame.
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I don't think you can compare it to any other commercial product (let alone an operating system), because it's not a commercial product.
The addon scene in wow is similar to the modding scene in many other games, it's compromised and run by enthusiasts willing and wanting to help eachother and share knowledge and neat stuff.
When introducing monetary or otherwise outside influences and factors into this it usually harms the community, which usually reacts against it (see paid mods on steam).
I'm not comparing your actions to that though, I just think it's an interesting example.
If your motivation for developing addons is to get in-game resources I suggest you stop developing addons, it's not going to make you achieve your goals.
If your motivation for developing addons is a desire to learn and to help your fellow community member then you're in a great spot, with lots of other similar minded people willing to help you along the way. If some people express gratitude through in-game gold or other "wordly" things then that's great, but don't think that's going to be the norm.
I cant speak for you, but the response I've gotten from people in regards to my addon have been nearly exclusively positive, I've had strangers whisper me thanks for what I do, and suggest ways to improve the addon and make it evolve. I haven't gotten any donations or similar, but that's not to be expected, I'm not doing this for gold.
This has gotten very offtopic, if you want to keep your thread clear of discussion not relating to the addon we could make another thread to discuss this.
The addon scene in wow is similar to the modding scene in many other games, it's compromised and run by enthusiasts willing and wanting to help eachother and share knowledge and neat stuff.
When introducing monetary or otherwise outside influences and factors into this it usually harms the community, which usually reacts against it (see paid mods on steam).
I'm not comparing your actions to that though, I just think it's an interesting example.
If your motivation for developing addons is to get in-game resources I suggest you stop developing addons, it's not going to make you achieve your goals.
If your motivation for developing addons is a desire to learn and to help your fellow community member then you're in a great spot, with lots of other similar minded people willing to help you along the way. If some people express gratitude through in-game gold or other "wordly" things then that's great, but don't think that's going to be the norm.
I cant speak for you, but the response I've gotten from people in regards to my addon have been nearly exclusively positive, I've had strangers whisper me thanks for what I do, and suggest ways to improve the addon and make it evolve. I haven't gotten any donations or similar, but that's not to be expected, I'm not doing this for gold.
This has gotten very offtopic, if you want to keep your thread clear of discussion not relating to the addon we could make another thread to discuss this.
Geigerkind
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Yep, as you said yourself. I dont even know why we are having this discussion.
Generally I agree. I think a modding community lives from having this kind of non profit system. I know that I pretty much break the code here. I have gotten such response as well. As I said, Im not saying that nobody said thanks for this work. Thats not true.
I think you are not really understanding my point that I am trying to make. Dont get my wrong. I love the support and the suggestions, I love being part of the community, I love coding addons and creating something new or recreating something that exists on younger expansions, however as selfish and egoistic as that sounds but Id like to have some kind of lets say reward or compensation for the work I put in there the last 8 months and will put in there the next 8 months probably.
In the end everyone has to decide for himself if he wants to have this addon or not. If he does disagree with my opinion so much that he refuses to use this addon or if he can understand me and is ready to bite into the bitter apple. That is fine.
Anyway. It is not allowed here anyway so this whole discussion is obsolete. I will release the addon in any form soon, even if it will not be completly "free".
cheers!
Generally I agree. I think a modding community lives from having this kind of non profit system. I know that I pretty much break the code here. I have gotten such response as well. As I said, Im not saying that nobody said thanks for this work. Thats not true.
I think you are not really understanding my point that I am trying to make. Dont get my wrong. I love the support and the suggestions, I love being part of the community, I love coding addons and creating something new or recreating something that exists on younger expansions, however as selfish and egoistic as that sounds but Id like to have some kind of lets say reward or compensation for the work I put in there the last 8 months and will put in there the next 8 months probably.
In the end everyone has to decide for himself if he wants to have this addon or not. If he does disagree with my opinion so much that he refuses to use this addon or if he can understand me and is ready to bite into the bitter apple. That is fine.
Anyway. It is not allowed here anyway so this whole discussion is obsolete. I will release the addon in any form soon, even if it will not be completly "free".
cheers!
oppahansi
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@Shino:
Really like your work man. Gonna contact you ingame, hoping to get my hands on the addon, since I am also registered with realmplayers + id for contributing.
Would like to contribute to your work and tests with realmplayers.
Cheers,
Worst DPS of Vanguard
Really like your work man. Gonna contact you ingame, hoping to get my hands on the addon, since I am also registered with realmplayers + id for contributing.
Would like to contribute to your work and tests with realmplayers.
Cheers,
Worst DPS of Vanguard
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Geigerkind
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Updated DPSMate (for everyone having a license):
- Increased the performance
- Fixed show/hide function
cheers!
- Increased the performance
- Fixed show/hide function
cheers!
I can safely say that the WoW private server community aren't unappreciative when it comes to addon developers.
People still regard Shadowed as a God amongst developers, now 8 years after his prime.
Every server I log on and say something in world/global, people always message me, asking if I'm "that addon guy". There are plenty of people around praising my addons and saying thank you in private. In fact, it just happened in a private server stream last night.
That's without releasing something as huge as DPSMate too. I think you are just feeling entitled to more appreciation than you will ever receive. Try working in software development professionally. People will rarely if ever say thank you. If production finds any bugs they didn't pick up during the testing phase, it's not even unlikely you'll be blamed, implicitly or not. Sure, that's not every company and every situation, but I've received more appreciation and greatfulness from the WoW community than anywhere else.
People still regard Shadowed as a God amongst developers, now 8 years after his prime.
Every server I log on and say something in world/global, people always message me, asking if I'm "that addon guy". There are plenty of people around praising my addons and saying thank you in private. In fact, it just happened in a private server stream last night.
That's without releasing something as huge as DPSMate too. I think you are just feeling entitled to more appreciation than you will ever receive. Try working in software development professionally. People will rarely if ever say thank you. If production finds any bugs they didn't pick up during the testing phase, it's not even unlikely you'll be blamed, implicitly or not. Sure, that's not every company and every situation, but I've received more appreciation and greatfulness from the WoW community than anywhere else.
AfterAfterlife
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Kinda sad to hear an addOn dev is "trying" to earn gold by "selling" beta-licenses...
I've already created dozens of addOns (some examples: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K_cda2jHe8, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13sIEZ4LGdc) and gold was never request or a requirement to use them.
If people like your work, they will say thanks, give gold, help you, etc... you don't need to ask for anything.
Some people are interested in my current work (Skyrim UI for WoW) and they simple volunteer to help me with the textures (e.g. photoshop), speeding up the process and the release for everyone. They even contribute with ideas to improve my work...what I could ask more?
When you create an addOn, you create it for the community, just like the people who are running private servers...“Power is gained by sharing knowledge, not hoarding it”
This is just my opinion.
Take care.
I've already created dozens of addOns (some examples: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K_cda2jHe8, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13sIEZ4LGdc) and gold was never request or a requirement to use them.
If people like your work, they will say thanks, give gold, help you, etc... you don't need to ask for anything.
Some people are interested in my current work (Skyrim UI for WoW) and they simple volunteer to help me with the textures (e.g. photoshop), speeding up the process and the release for everyone. They even contribute with ideas to improve my work...what I could ask more?
When you create an addOn, you create it for the community, just like the people who are running private servers...“Power is gained by sharing knowledge, not hoarding it”
This is just my opinion.
Take care.
burekdober
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Looking forward to the release and the way we can get the license 
Keep up the good work
Keep up the good work
Geigerkind
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Probably. I guess I did formulate it wrong when I said that. It is not like I am receiving no gratitude at all. And I am happy for everyone whispering me and telling me that they like the addon or people asking me, when DPSMate is going to be released. It is just this taking it for granted attitude, that I don't like. Yes it has always been like that, but that does not mean that Im going to stick with it as well.
Regarding the selling: I have released plenty of small addons for free. UI Packs, Unitframes, Buffframes, reworked addons, small life gadgets etc. However, those didnt require 8 months + another 8 months Im going to invest in this. I thought, that people who want me to continue doing this, might as well pay some gold, so I can have a stable economy and enjoy the game while coding. I might be alone with this opinion and many poeple wont like it, but Im sure that those who like the project will not worry about loosing some ingame money.
However, I respect that opinion and I share it to some extends as well, but Im not going to give this addon out for free :>
Looking forward to the release and the way we can get the license
Sure, currently working on the performance. I have also added some new features:
- Filter options: Classes or just certain people
- Stop/resume data collection button
- Reset popup before logout and menu options for that, so huge lags and long savings are avoided
- A test mode
- And an option in order to change the color of the background statusbar.
I hope I can get this addon work flawlessly. Until now it looks very good. I have no laggs in the raid, though I'd like to sync even more information^^
cheers!
Geigerkind
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After I have a stable and advanced version of DPSMate, Im going to start the rewrite on Power Auras :>
crimsonsage
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Missed all the drama with "selling" access to the closed beta, but in any case, thanks for your work on this so far. Looking forward to a public release at which time I would be happy to donate a few dollars your way -- as I said on the other forums. Assuming it's free for everyone to use.