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Other How important is it really to have a perfectly optimized group when raiding

Cpstabber

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#52
If you allow 1hybrid per type in, and put them with a group setup to allow there buffs to benifit the correct classes, i dont see a big issue, and helps with the easy mode mc people are complaining about.

As long as you have enough of the needed CC to do your bosses, the rest (if most are in raid spec) is just making class count equal so you dont have 10 mages going after mage gear, or 9 rogues wanting the same weapon. (i encourage a few roll combat dagger, a few roll combat sword).
 

Ensign

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#53
You can progress with a few offspecs! and you can get server firsts as well with a few offspecs!

And it is not true, that offspecs slow the raid progression!
 
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#54
You can progress with a few offspecs! and you can get server firsts as well with a few offspecs!

And it is not true, that offspecs slow the raid progression!
It is true that you can progess with some offspeccs without a problem. But it is also true that offspeccs don't deal enough damage (or provide that much utility to compensate for a lack of damage) to perfectly replace a pure damage class (besides Fury Warriors later on).

But you have to keep in mind that PvE isn't that hard, even though many people fanatically try to fool themselves and say it's hard, so in the end, there is no problem with raiding with offspeccs. You will be slower than without them, can't agree with you there.
 

Gilthresa

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#55
I dunno, I never felt like I was slowing my raid down when I played shadow. Usually when I missed raids for some reason or another I'd catch holy hell from my warlocks (I was in charge of caster DPS) about not having shadow weaving up for them, or from my priest class leader (who was also the healing coordinator) about how he had to have a druid watch the lock group since there wasn't any imp. VE in their group keeping them topped off on hp/mana. Or if we were doing some boss (like broodlord), I'd hear from my tank how thankful he was to have me in his group for that fight so that he'd get some extra heals for the encounter. I'd routinely be top 3, almost regardless of the encounter, when dmg+effective healing were counted together.

We raided with a Feral druid in a melee group, and myself as a shadowpriest in the Lock group, and I at least was never constantly out DPSd by pure DPS classes. I usually sat in the middle of the caster DPS, typically behind our best lock and our top 2 mages. Our Feral though I can't speak to, since I didn't really pay enough attention to melee to remember.
 

Lharts

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#56
Shadow can not be considered an off spec since spriests easily keep up with other dps.

Feral
Moonkin
Reckadin
SL
Hemo
Enhancement
Beast Mastery
...
Thats what people mean when they say off spec. A specc that would really gimp your overall raid performance and not just pushing your class into a different direction like the shadow tree.
 

Gilthresa

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#57
Nice to know that. I and a number of other shadowpriests had to fight tooth and nail back in original vanilla to get people to recognize the validity of the spec.
 

Mentat

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#58
No idea why I should throw a rogue some non-set leather item that he will probably exchange in the very near future for a set piece if I could make a resto druid in the raid really happy, if he prefers feral outside of raids. Or if he comes along as a feral in the first place.

Sorry guys, I just don't get the cookie cutting in Vanilla. Those raids will be cleared. That is certain. I'd sacrifice these neglectable differences any day if it means a more enjoyable raid and guild enviroment.
I think I might join up with you and hope your my Guild Leader. Because that's exactly what I plan on doing as a Druid :biggrin:
 

Gilthresa

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#59
I think I might join up with you and hope your my Guild Leader. Because that's exactly what I plan on doing as a Druid :biggrin:
The problem with that is that you have 40 people in a raid, and the rogue who might replace the offset leather piece with a class set later on might not see that class piece for another who knows how many raids, and then another rogue might grab it. So in an effort to make everyone happy, you've snatched a full time upgrade from a rogue and given it to a druid for a part-time upgrade that doesn't benefit the guild in any meaningful way outside of maybe PvP.

When raids are on farm status, then obviously offset pieces go flying around willy/nilly, and that makes plenty of sense. Hell, when we got to where we had Nefarian on farm, I had a full set of T1 and half a set of T2 pieces as a Shadow Priest. But when you're progressing, you've got to understand that your presence in a raid has to ultimately benefit the raid, and as a raid and/or guild leader, you've got to make decisions that best benefit the raid/guild at the time.
 

Cpstabber

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#60
If there is a feral, this applies, but gilthresa is correct, you dont know when that tier item will come, and have at least 4 others wanting it as well. And if u are running dkp, you may take this non set piece which should be a lil less dkp, and save up for a weapon/ring or what not while still gearing.

Though if a feral and rogue are both wanting, i would give to the druid as most non set items are BiS for them. You might not see that drop again for months.
 

evilpanda

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#61
hello there all :D

This issue is really bugging me, i will share my opinion of it.

Lets say a feral druid (not 5-7) play in the raid, lets say that they do worse dps than pure classes (sometimes they are not that far behind or last on the meters).
so, if they dont end up last how is that a waste? (cant be full locks)
lets say they end up last and that their buff is a minor add to the group. so all in all (buff calculated) you lose a minor % of dps value (compared to avrg dps in the raid).
Now other dps might complain over gear going to that druid, if we replace the druid in another dps wont that result in more gear going to the pure dps getting the druid slot? (i mean ferals wont need on tier sets/weapons) so most dps will actually benfit from less compettion (imo :)
in a situation that the fight gets rough, healing and mana might not suffice (dps is ok) for a single encounter, the druid is throwing some heals/ innevert/ battle res doesnt that make the raid group more flexible in adjusting and even more suited in a wide range of encounters?

in my personal opinion hybrid classes, in moderation, might add to the group survivability by being able to adapt better in some situations (more healing/dps) while taking an extra pure healer/dps wont result in that dynamic 75/25 hybrid play. taking another healer/dps will also increase drastically the compettion on gear resulting in less geared healers/dps while the hybrid will keep to narrow range of items mostly harming himself and since being less than others actually a % decrease of an already lower % is minimal damage to the raid.

on a more personal thought, we hybrid do tend to work harder, farm our gear and try to prove our value :)
 

Hagson

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#62
hello there all :D

This issue is really bugging me, i will share my opinion of it.

Lets say a feral druid (not 5-7) play in the raid, lets say that they do worse dps than pure classes (sometimes they are not that far behind or last on the meters).
so, if they dont end up last how is that a waste? (cant be full locks)
lets say they end up last and that their buff is a minor add to the group. so all in all (buff calculated) you lose a minor % of dps value (compared to avrg dps in the raid).
Now other dps might complain over gear going to that druid, if we replace the druid in another dps wont that result in more gear going to the pure dps getting the druid slot? (i mean ferals wont need on tier sets/weapons) so most dps will actually benfit from less compettion (imo :)
in a situation that the fight gets rough, healing and mana might not suffice (dps is ok) for a single encounter, the druid is throwing some heals/ innevert/ battle res doesnt that make the raid group more flexible in adjusting and even more suited in a wide range of encounters?

in my personal opinion hybrid classes, in moderation, might add to the group survivability by being able to adapt better in some situations (more healing/dps) while taking an extra pure healer/dps wont result in that dynamic 75/25 hybrid play. taking another healer/dps will also increase drastically the compettion on gear resulting in less geared healers/dps while the hybrid will keep to narrow range of items mostly harming himself and since being less than others actually a % decrease of an already lower % is minimal damage to the raid.

on a more personal thought, we hybrid do tend to work harder, farm our gear and try to prove our value :)
Having a feral druid is objectively worse than having a rogue. There is no reason to take a feral druid over a rogue. Get another rogue instead.

If you're lacking heals bring a healer instead, a feral druid with (probably) suboptimal gear isn't gonna help enough.

The only reasons to bring a feral druid, boomkin, ret pala, prot pala or some other suboptimal specc is if
1, You don't care about how efficient your raid is.
2, The spot would otherwise be empty.
 

evilpanda

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#63
I agree with you that having a druid will result in less overall dps... and if you read what i wrote i never claimed otherwise. all I said was that having a druid might allow you to shift between dps/heal on certain fights, you can't get a rogue and a priest in one slot unless you kick them after a certain fight and invite the other.
you can look at it as a support class which fills the needs of a fight leaning towards dps (a rogue cant decurse/heal/replenish mana)
and as i said before, i belive it allow other classes to have less compettion on their sets.
 

Gilthresa

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#64
Feral druids aren't going to have mana to heal. All the gear they'll go for is basically non-set Rogue gear, which means stacking Agi, AP, Crit, Hit, etc., not INT. Ferals sit at basically their base mana levels in high end gear. When you consider power shifting, ferals have essentially no spare mana to throw around, especially on max-rank heals with no +healing attached to them, so saying they can shift between DPS/Heal on certain fights doesn't hold much water. Now if you mean they heal on fight xyz and DPS on fight 123, then yes, I suppose they could, maybe, depending on gear. A feral druid who has feral gear isn't going to have a massive surplus of raid level healing gear to make up for having a non-healing spec. It doesn't really alleviate any competition for gear other than for the resto druids in your raid, since you clearly won't be going for +heal gear - unless you want to get a +healing set while you build your DPS set, which will further gimp your performance in both arenas.

Personally, I like ferals (obligatory LOLFERALDPS), and my guild progressed with a feral druid in our Melee DPS group (2 rogues and our top fury warrior and hunter), and they loved him for the extra 3% crit. His spare innervate, battle res, and ability to step in and emergency tank for a bit if necessary were the things he brought to the raid that made him worth it to us, not us deciding whether we wanted an extra healer or an extra DPS on any given fight.
 

evilpanda

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#65
I did meant for changing positions on different fights heal/decursing/br :).
I never said it will be on par with other healers just a help if it will be needed.
having a spare set (blue bis or close to it) of healing is not that hard to get, I meant it as a minor boost not a fully fledged healer.
you also mention the ability to support (some tanking/mana restore/br) which I think is good to have if things go wrong as a backup, that is why 1 slot is worth giving up even on the price of 25% dps and (also happy crit buff)
 

Gilthresa

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#66
I did meant for changing positions on different fights heal/decursing/br :).
I never said it will be on par with other healers just a help if it will be needed.
having a spare set (blue bis or close to it) of healing is not that hard to get, I meant it as a minor boost not a fully fledged healer.
you also mention the ability to support (some tanking/mana restore/br) which I think is good to have if things go wrong as a backup, that is why 1 slot is worth giving up even on the price of 25% dps and (also happy crit buff)
Thing is that for the "minor boost" to healing, you're asking a non-spec, non-geared healer to be a full fledged healer for the duration of the encounter.

As far as whether or not you'll pull 75% of similarly geared rogues (which is pretty low, tbh), and whether your buff/utility is worth it, that's up to the guild/raid leader to decide. I raided, and applied, as shadow to my guild and never advertised myself as a healer to them except on MC farming/gear selling/alt runs, because I wasn't one, and I didn't want to be thought of as one.
 

evilpanda

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#67
you are right!. as a feral you wont market yourself as a tank/healer/support, but you are able to pull those to some extent, which is a nice idea. even with blues/no spec lets say youll pull 25% heal power or 75% rogue dps.. that is what i was talking about, converting between 3/4 dps or 1/4 healer + support/buff, claiming its not such a bad tradeoff for 1 slot. but yes, i get your point :( sadly.
 

Cpstabber

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#68
When he is talking about having the feral heal, decures come fights, why do you asdume they do not have a heal set?. I would expect them to. From BiS preraod gear or a few pieces taken to prevent DE. Off tanks carry two gear sets, not all fights need 4 tanks, but you adjust your gear for the fight. A feral can dps on the dps gear check fights, heal intensive fights they can put the heal gear on and spot heal the dps in raids if needed. Or be a dedicated decurse bot on another fight. A rogue can do non of those. Nor intervate, or if an add gets lose, go bear, pop cooldowns, taunt and pull to a tank.

Narrow minded approach to every situation is frustrating.

The "should just bring a rogue, talk, is that rogue gonna leave on a ranged dps fight? No. Different fights require different things. If you wipe any boss, it isnt because there was 1 feral,1 shadow, and a ret/enchancement. There is another issue that is causing the wipe, yet ignorance will find it easier to blame a wipe at 20% on a 1-2%dps loss due to the hybrid. Never mind they cured 21 debuffs, healed themselves from a debuff, and rezzed the dummy who stands in fire every other fight. Oh but he is pure dps, so kick the other guy....
 

Cpstabber

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#69
More examples, major domo needs 5 tanks. Do 5 warriors come in full proc with only tank gear, no. You have people who have other gear and take care of thier job when the specific boss fight is here.

Naxx, do you run two shadow priest? No, you have a second priest with + hit gear to mind control tank.

You have to change your mind set that every people is to be cookie cutter, and is to have only one type of gear. You make your raid stronger, as you are more dynamic to adapting, and the overall happiness of the guild will be higher.

This is a game, in the end it should bring some happiness, otherwise, you are clicking wrong I guess.
 

evilpanda

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#70
When he is talking about having the feral heal, decures come fights, why do you asdume they do not have a heal set?. I would expect them to. From BiS preraod gear or a few pieces taken to prevent DE. Off tanks carry two gear sets, not all fights need 4 tanks, but you adjust your gear for the fight. A feral can dps on the dps gear check fights, heal intensive fights they can put the heal gear on and spot heal the dps in raids if needed. Or be a dedicated decurse bot on another fight. A rogue can do non of those. Nor intervate, or if an add gets lose, go bear, pop cooldowns, taunt and pull to a tank.

Narrow minded approach to every situation is frustrating.

The "should just bring a rogue, talk, is that rogue gonna leave on a ranged dps fight? No. Different fights require different things. If you wipe any boss, it isnt because there was 1 feral,1 shadow, and a ret/enchancement. There is another issue that is causing the wipe, yet ignorance will find it easier to blame a wipe at 20% on a 1-2%dps loss due to the hybrid. Never mind they cured 21 debuffs, healed themselves from a debuff, and rezzed the dummy who stands in fire every other fight. Oh but he is pure dps, so kick the other guy....
Yes! exactly my opinion.... getting 1 less pure and gaining a mixed breed, sure on pure melee fight that dont require intense heal or keeping range he will contribute less, but lets face it the game is not made out of those encounters alone, you lose 25% dps on some gain 30% heal on a different one might even Ot some loose trash, replenish the healers or battle res a dead rouge thus doing his job and contributing (imo at least) even more in overall view.
of course you will need core dps/heal that is why those hybrid, like any other class, wont take all the slots, just a few.
 

Hagson

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#71
When he is talking about having the feral heal, decures come fights, why do you asdume they do not have a heal set?. I would expect them to. From BiS preraod gear or a few pieces taken to prevent DE. Off tanks carry two gear sets, not all fights need 4 tanks, but you adjust your gear for the fight. A feral can dps on the dps gear check fights, heal intensive fights they can put the heal gear on and spot heal the dps in raids if needed. Or be a dedicated decurse bot on another fight. A rogue can do non of those. Nor intervate, or if an add gets lose, go bear, pop cooldowns, taunt and pull to a tank.

Narrow minded approach to every situation is frustrating.

The "should just bring a rogue, talk, is that rogue gonna leave on a ranged dps fight? No. Different fights require different things. If you wipe any boss, it isnt because there was 1 feral,1 shadow, and a ret/enchancement. There is another issue that is causing the wipe, yet ignorance will find it easier to blame a wipe at 20% on a 1-2%dps loss due to the hybrid. Never mind they cured 21 debuffs, healed themselves from a debuff, and rezzed the dummy who stands in fire every other fight. Oh but he is pure dps, so kick the other guy....
Restoration druids can decurse, battleres and heal. A feral can do that shoddily. A rogue + a real healer will be a far better total than 2 ferals trying to do 2 roles at once. And since you have 40 people to work with you wont have "half a healer too much", you wont need that "25% of a healer" extra.

As for bringing lost mobs to the tank, furies can do that better than ferals, equip a shield, pop some cds and tank it for the 10s without loosing much hp. Meanwhile the feral got crit twice and had to be healed for 8k during those 10s.

How do you know that we didn't wipe cause out feral did shit dps? That extra dps might have been the determining factor.

Once again if you're relying on these gimmicks like feral off-tanking, five million innervates and battleresses etc etc you are doign it wrong to begin with. No amount of battle resses will make people stop standing in the fire.



More examples, major domo needs 5 tanks. Do 5 warriors come in full proc with only tank gear, no. You have people who have other gear and take care of thier job when the specific boss fight is here.

Naxx, do you run two shadow priest? No, you have a second priest with + hit gear to mind control tank.

You have to change your mind set that every people is to be cookie cutter, and is to have only one type of gear. You make your raid stronger, as you are more dynamic to adapting, and the overall happiness of the guild will be higher.

This is a game, in the end it should bring some happiness, otherwise, you are clicking wrong I guess.
I agree with all of these point. You don't need shadow dps in naxx, a proper priest can do it.
You don't need 5 protwarriors, a fury can offtank and still do good dps when his target is dead. (A feral will tank badly and then dps badly).


Also, who are you to judge how I achieve happiness in the game? It's not by carrying people who refuse to get a proper specc, I can tell you that much.
 

Cpstabber

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#72
Now we are saying we have multiple ferals.... Ignorance knows no bounds.

And apparently you have to be a specced "right" to battle rez and decurse (debuffs cause more raid damage than anything).

And nice job staying away from the ability to swap from dps or heal depending on the specific boss you are on.

And your counter is a fury warrior while you bitch about carrying people? You too get carried until AQ40, Naxx gear.

I am done with this tread.
 

evilpanda

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#73
I am not comparing 2 ferals to a priest and a rogue.... the ratio here is not what was i meant.. we are talking 1 feral in a 40 man's raid. we are arguing on 1 slot which can be used for dps and heal at the same time (though not maxed) and how it can help adapt, rather than pure dps which might be better for some fights but will be down in others. you can not get 100% healer and 100% dps in 1 slot so "bring a rogue/priest" instead does not apply.
yes, a fury warrior can tank better and a mage can decurse, but a druid can decurse/heal/br/tank/replenish. simply ressing another dead player can turn the tables (if some % in dps can). its the ability to adapt and bring a more dynamic play style which imo means a tougher group with more chance of survival.
 
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