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Rogue Is Subtlety viable for PVP and PVE?

I

Irvin

New Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2015
Are there any good talent builds for PVP with subtlety? I find that the talent tree has really useful tools such as Master of Deception and improved Sap that I really love. However I was told that the ability Hemorrhage is lesser compared to sinister strike, without end game gear?

I am new to rogues and am not sure about which combo generating abilities to use at the right time.

I don't really know the difference between calling myself a dagger rogue or a sword/mace/axe rogue, apart from the obvious weapon change.

Am I right in thinking that I need to use backstab whenever possible as the combo generator?

Will this talent build work well in PVP? http://www.wowprovider.com/?talent=11215875_4_83053c105031d3s50025300033212100

Do only my party members/bg group/raid members see my /say or /yell when I am in stealth? Does the enemy see my chat?

So yeah I was wondering if I could get any help on building or finding a Subtlety talent build and how to play the Subtlety.

Sorry for so many vague and newbie questions. Thank you very much for reading and I appreciate all feedback and comments. Ohhh myyy goooddd I can't wait for this server to release :D
 
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Irvin said:
Are there any good talent builds for PVP with subtlety? I find that the talent tree has really useful tools such as Master of Deception and improved Sap that I really love. However I was told that the ability Hemorrhage is lesser compared to sinister strike, without end game gear?

I am new to rogues and am not sure about which combo generating abilities to use at the right time.

I don't really know the difference between calling myself a dagger rogue or a sword/mace/axe rogue, apart from the obvious weapon change.

Am I right in thinking that I need to use backstab whenever possible as the combo generator?

Will this talent build work well in PVP? http://www.wowprovider.com/?talent=11215875_4_83053c105031d3s50025300033212100

Do only my party members/bg group/raid members see my /say or /yell when I am in stealth? Does the enemy see my chat?

So yeah I was wondering if I could get any help on building or finding a Subtlety talent build and how to play the Subtlety.

Sorry for so many vague and newbie questions. Thank you very much for reading and I appreciate all feedback and comments. Ohhh myyy goooddd I can't wait for this server to release :D
Click to expand...

Before you read this guide please be aware that it is from the enemies forum ;)
Imo this is pretty funf to read and shows best rogue pvp specs.
http://www.wow-one.com/forum/topic/59855-rogue-for-starters-and-mongs-the-actual-pvp-guide/
 
Irvin said:
I don't really know the difference between calling myself a dagger rogue or a sword/mace/axe rogue, apart from the obvious weapon change.
Click to expand...

The ability to use one-handed axes actually came with a WotLK patch :innocent:
 
That's a typical pvp hemo build alright. For pve you'd want combat swords/daggers/whatever suits your taste.
 
I litterally can't live without Imp Sap and Preparation, sub is really great fun. You'll get less raw damage, but it's far more useful utility-wise. MoD is also pretty great. I wouldn't go all the way to Premeditation though, it's good but it prevents you from taking better things on the other trees.
 
I will answer your non spec questions.

What sets a dagger rogue apart from others?

Ambush and backstabs. When specced you get 30% crit from backstab, 45% from ambush before factoring agil and gear. Plain and simple.

People think pvp as if everybody has full hp and make pvp threads based off that.

Dont think that way. Think of yourself as a behind enemy lines finisher.

When a group is about to engage (not in combat) where are the healers? Standing in the back. If you can get there before the get in combat and sap a healer, you have already turned the tide of battle greatly with out a single hit of damage. The warriors and class cannons are focused on thier target unleashing hell, they then over extend quickly because they think a heal is coming that is not.

At this point the ranged dds panic and try to range the immediate threat by retreating, they have just less than half hp....

Boom ambush crit. Now you are exposed, blind a healer, drink a tea, sprint and go backstab crit the lowest hp around one he is down, vanish.

By this time, the healer is screaming for people to come get this rogue, you should be finding a place to wait out the random aoes people are going to be throwing looming for you. But you will laugh because now you become a distraction to 3, 4 people while you are 1. Again turning the tide of a battle doing no damage.

Your team can now use this as a chance to advance the battlefield further.

That is just one simple and common example of the life of a daggar rogue. Sword/mace is similar but will not get the burst needed to get those so desired killing blows. A healer sees you steady at half hp, you will not be a high priority heal and will be waiting a few just for a HoT. This is kill time for daggers.

For swords, the hp loss is more steady and it will give tbe healer enough time to finish thier priority target heal and get a heal on your target missing your kill chance, and being exposed to others for a longer time as well.

Also smaller but more frequent hits, somebody else might get your killing blow /sad
 
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I had a heavy Sub Dagger specced rogue waaay back in the day. I definitely had at least 31 points in it, cuz I remember using Premed. It was my preferred spec. I never enjoyed stunlock style of fighting. I'd rather get ridiculous burst and take people down quickly. However, I mainly limited my targets to clothies... that is where a Sub Dagger rogue shines.


edit - nice post by Cpstabber. Yeah, taking out a wounded target with Sub Daggers is hella fun. Such burst that you can't get from other rogue specs.
 
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For pvp I think it's better to go for a hybrid subtelty / assassination hemo spec, with cold blood you basically get a free kill even with poor gear, premed isn't worth it that much in my opinion. As for pve combat is more optimized, it has better dps overtime, sub can be good too you can easily run dungeons with it and it can be handy in some situations, but combat gives you more raw damage, which is what you're asked for in raids.
 
Cpstabber said:
Thanks, nice to see a thread that isnt a who has the best server for a change. Not enjoyable to read.
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That's not me, I mainly spam the class threads with newbie questions like this one xD Thanks for that description on what Sub rogues are in pvp. That's what makes me so interested in playing them :D Also I recognize that avatar picture from a game
 
It's a matter of how a spec "feels". Like for me, Sub Dagger spec just felt right. Loved getting massive ambush crits and taking soft targets down before they had a chance to even react. Tho admittedly, in a fair fight toe to toe vs a Combat rogue, I didn't like my chances. But then, I tried not to fight fair. :tongue:
 
You can have a hemo pve spec If you have 1k unbuffed attack power

Also you need to be Alliance for it to shine, because of might and kings (and DM/Ony buffs make it real beefy) but I can imagine an orc pulling it off to a lesser degree.

You need to be really well geared with lots of AP and hit and as close to 310 weapon skill as possible, due to the lack of any talents for it, and a really slow heavy hitting epic weapon.

I used Teebu's Blazing Longsword, but I'd imagine in time if you got Sand Polished Hammer as a human rogue (because of the weapon skill racials) that would be a solid weapon to go about it. If you score Maladath as an offhand for swords, or Anubisath Warhammer for maces, you're gravy.


It's a nice buff for melee heavy raids, definitely noticeable. Especially if you max out the charges per application.

It's not the best sustained dps ofc but with the right buffs, gear, and player, you better have KTM handy to say the least. If you want to min/max your dps, and not piss off the raid leaders, you might as well roll combat daggers/swords anyway.

(Here's to hoping someone else tries Hemo PvE out someday)

Here's the spec, obviously hugely pve oriented. I threw more pvp talents around when I was derpin with it:

http://www.wowprovider.com/?talent=11215875_4_8c520310505y5225010303210150
 
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hekko said:
http://www.wowprovider.com/?talent=11215875_4_8025303125051051320305o5p

What do you guys think about such build for PvE? Obviously using daggers for Backstab. Is it better to have 3/3 Improved Slice and Dice or 3/3 Improved Eviscerate?
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I wouldnt use this seal fate specc. For PvE, you don't need 31 points in assassination, since the 10 energy are a short boost at the start of the fight, making it not worth. Most people use a 30/8/13 or 31/8/12 build in order to be able to play PvE while having a somewhat PvP specc.

TL/DR: You use seal fate to be PvE and PvP specced.

You don't need this on kronos, therefore I recommand to go combat dagger/sword for PvE.
For PvP I love to use 21/8/22, other than that you can always use hemo or a seal fate specc.
 
hekko said:
http://www.wowprovider.com/?talent=11215875_4_8025303125051051320305o5p

What do you guys think about such build for PvE? Obviously using daggers for Backstab. Is it better to have 3/3 Improved Slice and Dice or 3/3 Improved Eviscerate?
Click to expand...

For PvE Imp Slice and Dice.
Seal Fate is a fun spec + it's PvE and PvP viable. The 10 extra Energy boost is for PvP, take it. It's real nice when u pair it with T1 5 Piece Bonus (another 10 Energy).

U would be just fine using that spec in PvE, rly.
 
http://www.wowprovider.com/?talent=11215875_4_8305313105c1350023305002001i5p

seal fate is great with a lot of crit gear sure, assuming yellow hit cap is met and 310 dagger skill which is certainly obtainable pre raid. Not that you should begin with such a spec, but if you try hard it all with consumes+ beefy buffs and stay alive for the duration, anything is possible.

3/5 imp poisons is more dps than 3/3 eviscerate for alliance, vice versa for horde.
Imp gouge is of course optional from the points in dodge, playstyles differ.
 
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