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    TwinStar team

.join vs logic

Cr0wL0ck

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Joined
Aug 23, 2014
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161
#1
The .join command was removed for level 60's due to be being used for camping players and flight paths...

The logic behind this is simply silly as a battleground takes 15-30+ min. usually and a player even in the worst camp situtation possible only has a 2 min. CD to ress a flight path has 10 min. respawn.

Furthermore removing .join will simply increase the duration of a battleground's que either to the point where it is not attractive to que and simply get your honor through wpvp or que and take a 3-5 min. flight to where you can kill...

Let's not even start bringing up the blizzlike reasoning as blizzard has for almost 2 decades held firm the rule that they will not interfere with World PvP and this still holds true today, arguing that .join is not blizzlike is slightly true but then again not as it is a blizzlike solution and Kronos has solved bugs that blizzard neglected permanently or first fixed much later. Stuff like the meeting stone or stuff like preventing blink through doors and similar are solutions blizzard first got much much later.

If anything is non-blizzlike then it is the reasoning behind the .join removal or the sudden upgrade of honor... even tho a clear schedule exists...
We got honor gear equal to patch 1.10 but AV is not out ? the entire timeline has been screwed over with this catering to a few complaints without any source... Complain enough and ZG is released before BWL ?

Had .join been completely removed on basis of being non-blizzlike and battlegrounds having more than enough then it had been a completely legit reasoning but instead the reason is to counter Wpvp and flight path killing... stuff i still see happening and i have not heard any decent reasoning to how .join could cause it to increase...
 

Cr0wL0ck

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Aug 23, 2014
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161
#3
Tbh if you had any logic, you would easily understand why .join increased queue time at server start.
Please do explain... it allows both horde & alliance to que, with it gone there are less alliance & horde quing thus less battlegrounds. The .join appealed to the more pve minded ppl and from time to time got in some bored fella's that otherwise would never have bothered quing.

Also the .que at release secured the level brackets of BG's being used. Yes it spoiled people and they will no-longer go to capitals due to knowing better and it should have been added 3-6 months after release but so should the honor upgrade...

PvE & PvP had a decent schedule with pvp even pushed a bit ahead of time but now it is a chaotic mess due to someone bending over 180 due to a couple complaints by the 0.1% top wanting R14 and those who are leveling dying in world pvp or unable to find FP or wait for a spawn...

Decrease FP spawn from 10 to 5 or 3 min.
Permit same faction to battle each other in battlegrounds
Add .join again in 1-3 months
Decrease honor awarded from killing 50-59... oh wait this was done... at least something was well done and this reduces wpvp if enough BG's

Stop bending over... you already screwed up the timeline i do not wanna see ZG before BWL or Naxx before AQ... like we see 1.10 gear before AV atm... K3 was meant to have a blizzlike timeline with minor tweaks but now its messy and pve gear is still gated.

Release all dungeon & craft gated stuff to even out pve with pvp, making BRD worthwhile farming etc. or making engineers farm for recipes. Don't gate 1 thing and let the other half be free...
 

Retherz

Authorized
Joined
Aug 1, 2017
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24
#4
prevent people queued for bgs from attacking pvp tagged units that are not in combat with them
or
disable honor from wpvp (would prevent vast majority of rankers from ganking, but not the people that play wow purely to gank)
or even better just leave it as it was or simply put the 5g respec cost back at 50g
 

lunchyb

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Feb 10, 2018
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24
#6
Let's not even start bringing up the blizzlike...
...it is a blizzlike solution...
...solutions blizzard first got much much later.
If anything is non-blizzlike...
Had .join been completely removed on basis of being non-blizzlike...
You could've/should've just left it at the first line because K3 is a funserver. And because it's a funserver, they're going to experiment with things (like .join) and see how successful they are. Now, the definition of "success" is where it gets tricky.
catering to a few complaints without any source...
Read the very first line of the post from the project: "an overwhelming amount of you..."

Has this really changed your game/experience so much?
 

gly

Authorized
Joined
May 10, 2016
Likes
18
#7
You could've/should've just left it at the first line because K3 is a funserver.
I disagree. I don't see K3 as a funserver at all because it takes months to set up even the most basic of characters to enjoy any of the content that actually attracts people to this game. That's not fun. How much longer before the Nostalrius generation of private server players get over the shitty novelty of slow levelling?
 

lunchyb

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Feb 10, 2018
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#8
I disagree. I don't see K3 as a funserver at all because it takes months to set up even the most basic of characters to enjoy any of the content that actually attracts people to this game. That's not fun. How much longer before the Nostalrius generation of private server players get over the shitty novelty of slow levelling?
I see what you did there.
 

Cr0wL0ck

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Aug 23, 2014
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161
#9
Is it possible to overdose on salt?
Salt would be players who complain about being killed in world pvp on a PvP server where the rules state that it is ok
Salt would be players who complain about being camped and no FP yet they have the option to run or logout. but choose to cry instead.

Lets ignore the salt that you add with being salty over some constructive opinion pointing out the fact that .join has no effect on world pvp and thus the reasoning is faulty or that .join increases the amount of battlegrounds by making it easily accessible thus people will be farming world pvp less and use more time within the battleground.

Also Lynchub... saying "overwhelming" does not mean it truly is "overwhelming"... For example i have barely seen a few and those few complaints origin from a small handfull of people that never add reason to anything said, not even a theory and if anyone questions them they call it salt and crying...

Some of them do not even know the difference between fun server and vanilla server.... /sigh

Either way listening to such trash is what i consider "bending over"...

Had the reasoning been non-blizzlike or that it is unrequired then it would be fine but the reasoning was World PvP & Flight Paths... if you wish to use the word making it "blizzlike" for its removal then at least look at the reasoning used... that is my biggest issue here that it was removed due to something blizzard would never act against something that is essential for the type of server...

Essentially catering to people who joined a pvp server trying to change the type to pve and have no interrest in the server's best interrest...

I can accept .join being removed but then it should be removed completely and for a reason and not this... This is as reasonable as a person complaining about dying to a hostile npc and then the npc is changed to be friendly within a weeks notice. What i have an issue with is the reasoning and how rash things where handled.
 
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Sunderwear

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Apr 7, 2018
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46
#10
I disagree. I don't see K3 as a funserver at all because it takes months to set up even the most basic of characters to enjoy any of the content that actually attracts people to this game. That's not fun. How much longer before the Nostalrius generation of private server players get over the shitty novelty of slow levelling?
Let me get this right. You claim that (correct me if I am wrong) players only want to play endgame, yet you outright bitch about the "Nost generation" wanting slow leveling? Go play retail if all you want is endgame treadmill.
 

Sunderwear

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Apr 7, 2018
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#11
pointing out the fact that .join has no effect on world pvp
Sorry, but just being on the forum for a few years and uploading a custom avatar does not imbue your opinions with the magic of "fact".

How's that plea for horde versus horde BGs coming along for you?
I guess "bending over" is only acceptable when it is something you personally are whining for.

You should consider removing "logic" from the thread title as well as your vocabulary, seeing as you are utterly devoid of it.
 

Retherz

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Aug 1, 2017
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24
#12
Let me get this right. You claim that (correct me if I am wrong) players only want to play endgame, yet you outright bitch about the "Nost generation" wanting slow leveling? Go play retail if all you want is endgame treadmill.
retail would also be a better alternative if you want more content whilst leveling
 

Sunderwear

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Apr 7, 2018
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#13
retail would also be a better alternative if you want more content whilst leveling
I am perfectly happy with vanilla leveling content. People like crowlock are the ones who see it as a hindrance and something to be suffered through to get to the "real game".
 

gly

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May 10, 2016
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#14
Let me get this right. You claim that (correct me if I am wrong) players only want to play endgame, yet you outright bitch about the "Nost generation" wanting slow leveling? Go play retail if all you want is endgame treadmill.
Indeed, that's the great mystery about it all.

When old-timers reminisce about classic WoW, whether that's retail, or a former private server, how many of them are lusting after the great joy of spending an entire evening farming satyr cocks? And when newer players are inspired to try classic WoW, how many of them were tempted by that classic Fraps compilation on Google Video of Drakedog running aimlessly up and down the Barrens on foot.

Would you not agree that the best part of this game is playing challenging PvE and PvP content with skilled friends and opponents? It's undeniable that the levelling grind is a hindrance to this, even if just for the sole reason that unless I quit my job and live as a basement dweller (to whom it's clear that Kronos, Elysium etc. are catering), I can't play with my friends, and I certainly can't improve my own gameplay if by some miracle of levelling-dedication, I'm still stuck to playing one class.

I'm afraid that the "go plej retail" argument is poor. If you think that the only difference between classic WoW and recent expansions is the experience rate, then this game is completely wasted on you.

It's a shame because Kronos has a pretty nice emulation of WoW, and it's got a track record for stability, longevity and transparency too. It could be a breeding ground for high quality gameplay if it weren't for that arbitrary time-sink. I can't help but wonder whether the Nostalrius generation even realise that it doesn't have to be this way.
 

Sunderwear

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Apr 7, 2018
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#15
Would you not agree that the best part of this game is playing challenging PvE and PvP content with skilled friends and opponents? It's undeniable that the levelling grind is a hindrance to this
No, I would not agree that "the leveling grind" is a hindrance to playing challenging PvE and PvE with friends and opponents. Content is content. What makes vanilla outstanding is that (most) ALL of the content from beginning to end was designed to be enjoyable. And this may shock or disgust you, some of us do actually enjoy both the journey as well as the destination. Those who seek to trivialize the leveling content and scoff at we who actually value it are not doing the game any favors. THAT is why the "goe plae reetale" argument absolutely has merit.

Arbitrary time sink? Are you new to MMOs or something?
 

nimeralos

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Aug 26, 2014
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320
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#16
Arbitrary time sink? Are you new to MMOs or something?
Ignore this gly, he is derailing every thread with his "I hate leveling, why not make Vanilla but with super-cool endgame PvE and PvP, but not like retail, you know, make a different great game out of Vanilla WoW because you're a huge team of professional full-time developers". It's not to judge, everyone has his own mania.

Take OP. His mania is "muh PvP". It seems he'd be happy if Alliance, the faction of carebears, doesn't exists at all, so of course it's difficult for him to see how the game became better in many aspects without .join. Hence the thread.
 

Retherz

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Aug 1, 2017
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#17
No, I would not agree that "the leveling grind" is a hindrance to playing challenging PvE and PvE with friends and opponents. Content is content. What makes vanilla outstanding is that (most) ALL of the content from beginning to end was designed to be enjoyable. And this may shock or disgust you, some of us do actually enjoy both the journey as well as the destination. Those who seek to trivialize the leveling content and scoff at we who actually value it are not doing the game any favors. THAT is why the "goe plae reetale" argument absolutely has merit.

Arbitrary time sink? Are you new to MMOs or something?
you are factually wrong about the leveling, listen to the interviews from 2k40d-2k60d. they without a doubt failed with what they had envisioned, wotlk's azeroth is much closer to what they had envisioned in the development of vanilla. the only thing that makes vanilla outstanding from any other expansion is the importance of social interactions.

leveling should be trivialized, it is not a challenge nor an enjoyable experience if you have already done it once, this is especially clear in vanilla.
Arbitrary time sink? Are you new to MMOs or something?
great rebuttal.
 

Sunderwear

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Apr 7, 2018
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46
#18
you are factually wrong about the leveling, listen to the interviews from 2k40d-2k60d. they without a doubt failed with what they had envisioned, wotlk's azeroth is much closer to what they had envisioned in the development of vanilla. the only thing that makes vanilla outstanding from any other expansion is the importance of social interactions.
How am I "factually wrong"? It is mine as well as the opinion of others. The intention or point of view of the developers has ZERO bearing on the opinion of the players who actually played it and grew to love it for what it was, not what it could have been.

I think leveling should be trivialized, it is not a challenge nor do I think it is an enjoyable experience if I have already done it once, this is especially clear in vanilla from my point of view about what things I personally enjoy.
Fixed that for you.


Thank you. It was low hanging fruit.
 

Retherz

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Aug 1, 2017
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#19
What makes vanilla outstanding is that (most) ALL of the content from beginning to end was designed to be enjoyable. And this may shock or disgust you, some of us do actually enjoy both the journey as well as the destination. Those who seek to trivialize the leveling content and scoff at we who actually value it are not doing the game any favors. THAT is why the "goe plae reetale" argument absolutely has merit.
Are you new to MMOs or something?
WoW trivialized the MMO standard when it comes to leveling. Look at everquest or other shit around that era. WoW was certainly not designed as the leveling game you treat it as.

You are factually wrong. You do not need to attribute the fact that I point out that you are wrong as opinion, as it is not.


http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Jeffrey_Kaplan

Jeffrey Kaplan (alias Tigole) was a Lead Game Designer at Blizzard Entertainment, formerly responsible for world design of World of Warcraft (and subsequent expansions), including "quests, outdoor zones, dungeons, raids etc."[1]

Jeff was hired by Blizzard because of his status as Tigole, guild leader for Legacy of Steel on The Nameless server of EverQuest, and his rants on Sony Online's handling of endgame content In EverQuest made him a celebrity In the EQ community. The guild had many world-first raid kills, and is attributed to helping shape Everquest and the MMO genre in general towards extreme emphasis on endgame content.

Looking forward to your response attributing an MMO paradigm shift as my opinion.
 

Retherz

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Aug 1, 2017
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#20
Ignore this gly, he is derailing every thread with his "I hate leveling, why not make Vanilla but with super-cool endgame PvE and PvP, but not like retail, you know, make a different great game out of Vanilla WoW because you're a huge team of professional full-time developers". It's not to judge, everyone has his own mania.

Take OP. His mania is "muh PvP". It seems he'd be happy if Alliance, the faction of carebears, doesn't exists at all, so of course it's difficult for him to see how the game became better in many aspects without .join. Hence the thread.
Ignoring someone or sticking your head in the sand is a great way to disprove their points. Telling people to ignore someone else is also a great way to prove you are worth listening to.
 

Sunderwear

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Apr 7, 2018
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46
#21
WoW trivialized the MMO standard when it comes to leveling. Look at everquest or other shit around that era. WoW was certainly not designed as the leveling game you treat it as.

You are factually wrong. You do not need to attribute the fact that I point out that you are wrong as opinion, as it is not.
Do you have issues actually understanding what people write? Are you suggesting that Kaplan and the developers intentionally made leveling content unfun? I fail to see anything in your posts as remotely disproving what I have posted.

Many enjoy the leveling content, while many others do not. NONE of that has anything whatsoever to do with what Kaplan envisioned, nor does it mean that they intentionally tried to make leveling content not fun. It's a marathon, not a sprint. Players like yourself and crowlock sound like the Cartman type that would convince their mothers to drive to the end of the marathon to drop them off just prior to the finish line, completely devoid of any understanding of the point of everything leading up to that point.
 
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Cr0wL0ck

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Aug 23, 2014
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#23
Sorry, but just being on the forum for a few years and uploading a custom avatar does not imbue your opinions with the magic of "fact".

How's that plea for horde versus horde BGs coming along for you?
I guess "bending over" is only acceptable when it is something you personally are whining for.

You should consider removing "logic" from the thread title as well as your vocabulary, seeing as you are utterly devoid of it.
Never even brought up the fact that you joined barely a couple months ago and i never proclaimed that due to the time i have been around my words are fact so i dunno why you are messing with such stuff.

My "fact" is what i wrote.

1. There has been no drop in FP kill or wpvp camping from my perspective i still do it as much as ever or actually a bit more and my alts still get camped as well.

2. Even after being killed 5 times in a row with a short walk u would have a 2 min. cd on reviving, a battleground even if done by premade usually takes around 10 min. while most battles take 15-35 min.

3. FP takes 10 min. to respawn and they are located so it takes at most 5-7 min. walking to the next even on foot in STV... A player also has the option to simply log out for half an hour or play on another character a bit or simply assist the FP as it can be troublesome killing it if you also have to account for sneak attacks while handling the FP and his pets.

4. Blizzard has never acted against blue walling, killing of npc and especially not killing a player... in fact early in vanilla a lot of extra npc's where civilians but over time they where reduced and later there was no civilian's.

If you want a deterrent force against FP camping then:
A: Reduce respawn to 3-5 min. rng so it cannot be predicted and is too painfull to keep dead.
B: Turn FP's into civilians

5. Let me repeat once more, i can accept .join being removed but the reasoning has to be corrected and not removing it in a half arsed way where you remove it from a single level group. I have not heard a single perspective on how .join is used to camp as battlegrounds clearly do not last 2 min. unless the entirety of the enemy team leave before it even starts. even if you walked or waited before you went to ressurect you would still have a lot of time where your camper has no chance on tracking you and you could move to a different area or map or use the spawning flight path.

Could you at least give some perspective or logical scenario where .join deliberately results in camping and makes it impossible for the victim to do anything about it ? I enjoy my leveling content quite a bit in fact i am leveling my 3rd character and slowly leveling my 4th when it has rested XP...

Let us not even sugar coat the fact that NOBODY recorded a scenario of being camped using this.... if it was as problematic as claimed there should be quite a few recordings of it... If anything .join prevented camping as it added more battlegrounds resulting in more honor and time spent in there than farmed outside and you could que and accept pop if you saw an enemy running towards you. Also flying from capital after Quing takes 3-7 min. usually and the que for horde is 30-70 min. often after the removal of .join so you won't see less players hunting you down for honor.
 
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Cr0wL0ck

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Aug 23, 2014
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161
#25
Asking for a very basic example on how .join affected world pvp and flight paths and not to my surprise all people say is random garbage related to nothing aside from dodging the questions or trolling around...

I even state that i can accept the removal but it would be more reasonable to remove it completely from all levels instead of half arsed way but the reasoning is faulty. All i ask is a freaking plausible example of how people could use the .join to camp when it takes a maximum of 120 seconds before a player can revive and the shortest battlegrounds are still multiple times that duration.

And camping a FP still happens now and even if you could somehow use .join to camp them even tho they have a 10 min. spawn the best solution would be to reduce respawn to 3-5 min. in such a case. And the worst camp examples i saw only lasted around 40 minutes... When i get camped i have 3 solutions.

1. i read something or watch youtube
2. i log out or play on another alt
3. i log on my main play it or get revenge

note: i could even ask a guildie or such to lend a hand as a 4th solution but thats similar to solution 3 and can be used by people without 60s

Why treat these special people to the point where it affects the server ? they have not even provided a theoretical example but only a claim, These are people who cannot even give a response but will use overused reddit/meme sentences like salt or ur momma or simply troll around dodging question or bring up another topic within...

Is it possible to overdose on salt?
The way I play is the best and only way to play.
I disagree. I don't see K3 as a funserver at all because it takes months to set up even the most basic of characters to enjoy any of the content that actually attracts people to this game. That's not fun. How much longer before the Nostalrius generation of private server players get over the shitty novelty of slow levelling?
Tbh if you had any logic, you would easily understand why .join increased queue time at server start.
 
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