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    TwinStar team

.join vs logic

gly

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#26
No, I would not agree that "the leveling grind" is a hindrance to playing challenging PvE and PvE with friends and opponents. Content is content. What makes vanilla outstanding is that (most) ALL of the content from beginning to end was designed to be enjoyable. And this may shock or disgust you, some of us do actually enjoy both the journey as well as the destination.
I totally appreciate that some people actually enjoy the same fetch quests over and over again in each level bracket. It gives them a chance to explore Azeroth as well as a sense of accomplishment if/when they get to the end. When I returned to WoW after a long hiatus, I was looking for that nostalgic feeling, but at the time nobody was interested in "Blizzlike" 1.12. The only realm that offered 1x experience was Scriptcraft and it was already on its way out so I had to settle for a 12x realm.

A few years later I started up on TBC with a few friends, on the same high experience rate format. This shit was mostly new to me at the time (since I had stopped playing retail shortly after TBC released) so I played the Outland content at 1x rate on both factions, and it was fun.

The problem is that, unlike the endgame content, slaving away at quests in WoW is only fun for the first time.


Unfortunately, on the fashionable 1x servers, unless you buy/steal/borrow other people's characters, you'll have the following limitations:
- You can generally only enjoy dungeons and raid content from one perspective
- You can't jump onto another character to suit group requirements in premade vs premade BGs
- You can't change factions when BGs die
- You can't change your mind because you've already invested months into a single character

This is a deal-breaker for anybody who takes this game seriously and I know that I'm not alone when I say that the "journey" isn't even close to being worth these sacrifices.
Those who seek to trivialize the leveling content and scoff at we who actually value it are not doing the game any favors. THAT is why the "goe plae reetale" argument absolutely has merit.
I don't know what to say to this...
We're having a discussion about the future of this private server. If you're happy with how it is and feel comfortable to shut down every conversation that doesn't agree with your vision, then I hope you don't mind when you're stuck enjoying your journey with only a small handful of other ret paladins.
Arbitrary time sink
? Are you new to MMOs or something?
Again, wtf even is this? If this is a competition then I'm reasonably confident that I've wasted far more hours playing vanilla WoW, across a much wider variety of private servers, in addition to retail, than yourself.
Yes, videogames are a waste of time. I like this one because it's challenging, competitive and that there are always new surprises. This is the carrot on a stick that people are farming kobolds up to lvl 60 for. In 2018, why do we still need to invest such an obscene amount of time to become eligible for this? It's just really... backwards.
 

lunchyb

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#27
Asking for a very basic example on how .join affected world pvp and flight paths and not to my surprise all people say is random garbage related to nothing aside from dodging the questions or trolling around...
Well, I can only speak for me, but I can say that it has been answered before, just not on this thread. I'll give you two scenarios:

Scenario 1, with .join) A group of 3 gankers/campers log on, activate .join, and travel from Org to... we'll say Lakeshire. During that travel time (Org, zep to GG, mount to Lakeshire), they're not ganking/camping. They arrive at Lakeshire and kill the flight master and every Alli player they can until their BG pops. They're in WSG for 30 mins, during which they're not camping the FP. Their BG finishes, they activate .join, and camp the FP for the hour or more that it takes for the next BG to pop. These 3 continue to do this for, say, 6 hours before hearthing to Org and calling it a day.

Note: Scenario 1 involves only 3 Horde (there are more than 3) and assumes they all logged out in Org (not Lakeshire)

Scenario 2, without .join) A group of 3 gankers/campers log on, queue for a BG, and travel from Org to Lakeshire. During that travel time (Org, zep to GG, mount to Lakeshire), they're not ganking/camping. They arrive at Lakeshire and kill the flight master and every Alli player they can until their BG pops. They're in WSG for 30 mins, during which they're not camping the FP. Their BG finishes--now, they're either forced to travel back to Org to re-queue, during which time they're not camping the FP; or they're ported to Org after their BG, can re-queue and then travel to Lakeshire again, during which time they're not camping the FP; or they stay in Lakeshire and camp the FP but can no longer queue for BG's.

The reality, as I understand it, is that there were many Horde taking advantage of Scenario 1 at many locations. Scenario 2 forces players into a lot more travel time (i.e. not gaking time) if they want to do both BG's and FP camping. Yes, there are those who will just camp FP's, but there are many (if not more) who choose BG's over that.
 

gly

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#28
Scenario 2 forces players into a lot more travel time (i.e. not gaking time) if they want to do both BG's and FP camping. Yes, there are those who will just camp FP's, but there are many (if not more) who choose BG's over that.
Oh boy, this is gonna be good.
 

gly

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#30
Honestly, I don't care either way. Cr0wl0ck asked for a basic example of a (very basic) concept, so I reiterated what I picked up from other threads.
And while you're at it, disable the 'queue as a group' function, because those pesky PvPers will surely abuse it to get around this new 'QoL' feature!
How can you possibly force players to just sit around idly for half an hour, at best, dueling outside Orgrimmar, for their BG to pop?
 

Retherz

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#31
Do you have issues actually understanding what people write? Are you suggesting that Kaplan and the developers intentionally made leveling content unfun? I fail to see anything in your posts as remotely disproving what I have posted.

Many enjoy the leveling content, while many others do not. NONE of that has anything whatsoever to do with what Kaplan envisioned, nor does it mean that they intentionally tried to make leveling content not fun. It's a marathon, not a sprint.
you clearly have issues reading what people write.

Those who seek to trivialize the leveling content and scoff at we who actually value it are not doing the game any favors. THAT is why the "goe plae reetale" argument absolutely has merit.
Are you new to MMOs or something?
Players like yourself and crowlock sound like the Cartman type that would convince their mothers to drive to the end of the marathon to drop them off just prior to the finish line, completely devoid of any understanding of the point of everything leading up to that point.
yeah that makes a lot of fucking sense mr psychologyman. i ranked to GM and played retribution because it was a free ride.
 

lunchyb

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#32
How can you possibly force players to just sit around idly for half an hour, at best, dueling outside Orgrimmar, for their BG to pop?
I brought something similar up on another thread, asking what the Horde are supposed to do for that hour plus while they wait... The response was something like "What, are we supposed to feel sorry for them!?"

Found it:
Having .join does not incentivize alliance as it is, as we have fast queues. What do horde do now during their wait? Are we to feel bad that they would be losing the option to gank people far from battlemasters at will?
 

Cr0wL0ck

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Aug 23, 2014
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#33
Well, I can only speak for me, but I can say that it has been answered before, just not on this thread. I'll give you two scenarios:

Scenario 1, with .join) A group of 3 gankers/campers log on, activate .join, and travel from Org to... we'll say Lakeshire. During that travel time (Org, zep to GG, mount to Lakeshire), they're not ganking/camping. They arrive at Lakeshire and kill the flight master and every Alli player they can until their BG pops. They're in WSG for 30 mins, during which they're not camping the FP. Their BG finishes, they activate .join, and camp the FP for the hour or more that it takes for the next BG to pop. These 3 continue to do this for, say, 6 hours before hearthing to Org and calling it a day.

Note: Scenario 1 involves only 3 Horde (there are more than 3) and assumes they all logged out in Org (not Lakeshire)

Scenario 2, without .join) A group of 3 gankers/campers log on, queue for a BG, and travel from Org to Lakeshire. During that travel time (Org, zep to GG, mount to Lakeshire), they're not ganking/camping. They arrive at Lakeshire and kill the flight master and every Alli player they can until their BG pops. They're in WSG for 30 mins, during which they're not camping the FP. Their BG finishes--now, they're either forced to travel back to Org to re-queue, during which time they're not camping the FP; or they're ported to Org after their BG, can re-queue and then travel to Lakeshire again, during which time they're not camping the FP; or they stay in Lakeshire and camp the FP but can no longer queue for BG's.

The reality, as I understand it, is that there were many Horde taking advantage of Scenario 1 at many locations. Scenario 2 forces players into a lot more travel time (i.e. not gaking time) if they want to do both BG's and FP camping. Yes, there are those who will just camp FP's, but there are many (if not more) who choose BG's over that.
Thank you

Seeing these i cannot see that much of a threat by removing .join except for lakeshire of course but other cities closer to FP can easily be reached with flight before a que pop also the solution would be to simply reduce spawn down to 3-5 minutes and improve the gryphons by making them immune to root/slow & cc.

At that point killing a FP will not be worth it even as a temporary annoyance as you cannot take it down easily and spawn would not be long enough.

.join doesnt prevent killing or annoying low levels i do so regularly even on the alts i level myself and vice versa i am being annoyed and killed as well but i just log another etc.

I see what could cause a gripe for some small minded levelers tho as it would be a bother to more and more the longer it keeps going on but the problem lies with those individuals and that FP's are so simple so making it less solo-able and reducing spawn will make it less fun teasing people with FP kills.
 

nimeralos

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#34
Ignoring someone or sticking your head in the sand is a great way to disprove their points. Telling people to ignore someone else is also a great way to prove you are worth listening to.
Well sorry for telling people to ignore someone who is completely offtopic, and not for the first time. Let's create a "does Vanilla need such a long and grindy leveling" thread and rant about it there.

On topic again: of course .join (removal) has pros and cons. But something serious needed to be done. They've removed .join, because it's easy and does solve the problem partially. Therefore I don't see them bringing it back, and of course they won't nerf PvP gear back.

You can still argue for necessity of other PvP-related decisions though.
 

Retherz

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Aug 1, 2017
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#35
Well sorry for telling people to ignore someone who is completely offtopic, and not for the first time. Let's create a "does Vanilla need such a long and grindy leveling" thread and rant about it there.

On topic again: of course .join (removal) has pros and cons. But something serious needed to be done. They've removed .join, because it's easy and does solve the problem partially. Therefore I don't see them bringing it back, and of course they won't nerf PvP gear back.

You can still argue for necessity of other PvP-related decisions though.
if the problem was ganking they didnt solve it. if the problem was with ranking they didnt solve it either.

instead of adding an easy fix to a bigger problem they removed a unique kronos tm feature that also happened to amplify the problem in question. this feature was sadly one of the only good custom features on kronos.
 

Sunderwear

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#36
"My being a violent offender, and the fact that I continue to commit violence clearly shows that violence is still happening at the same rate"
Dude, you play horde. You are salty because what benefits your playstyle has been taken away.
Get over it already.
 

Retherz

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#37
"My being a violent offender, and the fact that I continue to commit violence clearly shows that violence is still happening at the same rate"
Dude, you play horde. You are salty because what benefits your playstyle has been taken away.
Get over it already.
doesnt everyone benefit from a join command though? the people that enjoy bgs get to enjoy them more, the people that enjoy both ganking and bgs get to do both more. the people that enjoy the thrill of the quest get to experience more corpse runs. keep in mind that you choose to play a pvp server, where the only thing the pvp string in the realmlist does is add senseless ganking, and not actual fair pvp such as bgs or duels.

btw it is really funny how you compare this to violent crime, implying it is not content blizzard intentionally added to be enjoyed.


please further explain how these privileged horde benefit so much from a join command and how the marginalized alliance levelers are victims, and not part of pvp content that is to be enjoyed.
 

lunchyb

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Feb 10, 2018
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#38
Thank you

Seeing these i cannot see that much of a threat by removing .join except for lakeshire of course but other cities closer to FP can easily be reached with flight before a que pop also the solution would be to simply reduce spawn down to 3-5 minutes and improve the gryphons by making them immune to root/slow & cc.
You're welcome.
Lakeshire, yes, but I'd include Menethil. Both are in lower-level contested zones, neither of which have Horde FP's, and both of which are two of the first contested areas that Alli are put in. Easier to gank level 15's in Redridge than level 50's in Winterspring, travel time aside.

And I agree: I would expect other FP's to feel the brunt of removing .join, namely Astranaar, Nijel's Point, and Southshore (but that's no different). I used Lakeshire in my example because of its popularity and the fact that it's Sunderwear's precious.

Making flight masters more difficult or extremely tedious to kill would be an interesting way to counter this. I've just come to believe this kind of play-style is really nurtured on these private PvP servers, so you'd upset the player-base that gets rock hard making it so the opposing faction can't fly anywhere.
 

Sunderwear

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#39
doesnt everyone benefit from a join command though? the people that enjoy bgs get to enjoy them more, the people that enjoy both ganking and bgs get to do both more.
How many times have we been reminded that those who play horde tend to PVP more than those who play alliance? Does that point of view only work when in specific arguments?

btw it is really funny how you compare this to violent crime, implying it is not content blizzard intentionally added to be enjoyed.
In a RP sense, murdering flightmasters and those who are incapable of defending themselves is the very definition of violent crime. Perhaps they intended to entertain sociopaths?

In a RP sense this is like an army with no current battle to fight, getting bored and taking up arms against secondary schools. It is akin to L20-L60s returning every 15 minutes to kill Hogger, but with the added enjoyment of causing another player to not have fun in the game, and then further bitching that they do not have enough people to PvP against, leading to a thread requesting they can PvP against their own faction.

In before someone forgets that I am all for similar leveled (bracket-like) WPVP, and accuses me of wanting a PVE server.
 
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Retherz

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#40
How many times have we been reminded that those who play horde tend to PVP more than those who play alliance? Does that point of view only work when in specific arguments?
Most people go for the best racials, and in vanilla horde have the best racials. Same applies to retail, most pvpers choose human, orc or belf.


In a RP sense, murdering flightmasters and those who are incapable of defending themselves is the very definition of violent crime. Perhaps they intended to entertain sociopaths?

In a RP sense this is like an army with no current battle to fight, getting bored and taking up arms against secondary schools. It is akin to L20-L60s returning every 15 minutes to kill Hogger, but with the added enjoyment of causing another player to not have fun in the game, and then further bitching that they do not have enough people to PvP against, leading to a thread requesting they can PvP against their own faction.

In before someone forgets that I am all for similar leveled (bracket-like) WPVP, and accuses me of wanting a PVE server.
people dont gank for some sort of roleplay. it is for the satisfaction of others misery. armies looting and sacking... you must have a wild imagination.
So why are you for the removal of the command instead of say faction transfers, and/or disabled world pvp whilst in queue for a bg?

Why are you for WPVP in the same level? People always seek advantages, be it through levels, gear, engineering, consumables, talents, class or skill. Being killed by someone 3 levels above causes more nuisance than being one shot by a level 60 that then goes on to the next person. PVE servers have far higher quality pvp than these world pvp servers, which adds nothing more than opportunistic fragging.
 

Sunderwear

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#41
Most people go for the best racials, and in vanilla horde have the best racials. Same applies to retail, most pvpers choose human, orc or belf.
The reason they are choosing horde for PVP has zero relevance on the discussion.


Why are you for WPVP in the same level?
I specifically stated level BRACKETS. Just like in boxing and wrestling IRL there are weight classes. Would you be in favor of removing brackets in BGs and allowing all levels to join every BG?
I prefer bracket PVP purely from a gameplay aspect.

So why are you for the removal of the command instead of say faction transfers, and/or disabled world pvp whilst in queue for a bg?
Sorry, you have either mistaken me for someone who has actually made that statement, or are simply making up stuff at this point hoping nobody notices the bullshit.
 
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Retherz

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#43
The reason they are choosing horde for PVP has zero relevance on the discussion.
Then why are you using it as an argument?

I specifically stated level BRACKETS. Just like in boxing and wrestling IRL there are weight classes. Would you be in favor of removing brackets in BGs and allowing all levels to join every BG?
I prefer bracket PVP purely from a gameplay aspect.
I prefer equal level pvp, I'd enjoy vanilla pvp much more if there were stat templates rather than people using gear to win. Same thing is in the lower brackets. 10-19 is level 19s roflstomping any non 19 twink, same thing applies to 20-29, 30-39, etc. just not to the same degree as 10-19 is the most popular non 60 bracket (excluding 51-60 AV).

But PVP and WPVP are not the same. And comparing WPVP to boxing for instance, where two people are prepared to fight each is just dishonest, compare it to a duel instead.

Sorry, you have either mistaken me for someone who has actually made that statement, or are simply making up stuff at this point hoping nobody notices the bullshit.
Yes, I assume you are against .join as you have added nothing to cr0wlocks discussion other than derail the thread and
"My being a violent offender, and the fact that I continue to commit violence clearly shows that violence is still happening at the same rate"
Dude, you play horde. You are salty because what benefits your playstyle has been taken away.
Get over it already.
You call cr0wlock salty for playing horde and benefits from .join, just like all the alliance players do. You are just here to derail the thread, you have are new here and have no forum avatar like crowlock pointed out. You simply make stuff up hoping no one will notice your bullshit, constantly changing side between how it affects pvp then how it affects levelers, not taking a side in crowlocks discussion rather you resort to ad hominem against crowlock.
 

Sunderwear

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#44
Then why are you using it as an argument?
I in no way used their REASON for choosing horde for PVP as an argument. The only person who brought up the reason they choose horde to PVP as has been you. Are you mentally deficient or something?

MORE people choose horde to PVP as. Therefore MORE horde than alliance benefit from the ability to queue via .join.
How is this overly complex to you?
 
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Sunderwear

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#46
you have are new here and have no forum avatar like crowlock pointed out.
I played vanilla since beta and have played on pretty much every decent PVP PS. You have me legitimately laughing about the usual fall back of "you are new...not even an avatar" line.

You simply make stuff up hoping no one will notice your bullshit,
What have I "made up"?

constantly changing side between how it affects pvp then how it affects levelers,
That is not changing sides. That is having an opinion on both aspects. IT AFFECTS BOTH. THEY ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.

not taking a side in crowlocks discussion rather you resort to ad hominem against crowlock.
Is crowlock paying you to run interference for him or something?

But Alliance has the better racials.

This topic is now about Racials for the next 4 pages.
I enjoy the alliance-wide racial that enables faster BG queue times.
 
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Retherz

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#48
But Alliance has the better racials.

This topic is now about Racials for the next 4 pages.
Well racials are highly situational but personally I generally find the horde ones to be slightly better on average.

Perception is pretty much useless, at least on Kronos where everyone seems to have the improved stealth talent, they get to sap you long before you can even see them.


Gnomes racial is very nice for warriors, however it's value is greatly diminished with the presence of a paladin.

Stoneform is really strong, however it is again on the faction with cleanse bots, which slightly diminishes its value in team pvp, still one of the strongest racials, if not the strongest.

Shadowmeld can be pretty strong, however the advantage is very situational, personally I'd prefer a passive or something to use in fight.

Orcs stun resist can be quite unreliable, the vanilla version feels too RNG but it can completely determine the outcome of a fight. Blood fury can also be extremely good if you have to go all in.

WOTF is one of the best, as it is an active use and not RNG. At least in my limited experience knowning the probable outcome of a 30 min cd mc cap is an instant WOTF makes me pretty much never use it on one unless I have a literate warlock on my side.

Tauren has a pretty nice racial, but you can't really follow it up with a cyclone, it can be extremely nice if you manage to hit multiple casters with it, but that can generally be extremely costly as a caster and as a warrior it shouldn't happen, and DRing stun can be too costly to be worth it.

All in all I suppose alliance have the best racials, primarily due to Stoneform. However taking the class-race statistics in to account, with most melee playing human/orc, I'd say horde have a greater racial advantage, as I consider Orc hardiness to be far superior Perception.


Ignore this Sunderwear, he is derailing every thread with his "I hate instaced pvp, why not make Vanilla but with super-cool endgame WPvP and leveling quests, but not like retail, you know, make a different great game out of Vanilla WoW because you're a huge team of professional full-time developers". It's not to judge, everyone has his own mania.
edit: and he doesn't even have a forum avatar.
 

Sunderwear

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#49
Ignore this Sunderwear, he is derailing every thread with his "I hate instaced pvp, why not make Vanilla but with super-cool endgame WPvP and leveling quests, but not like retail, you know, make a different great game out of Vanilla WoW because you're a huge team of professional full-time developers". It's not to judge, everyone has his own mania.
edit: and he doesn't even have a forum avatar.
You know what I do have? fast queues.
 
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