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.join vs logic

Cr0wL0ck

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Aug 23, 2014
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#52
On topic again: of course .join (removal) has pros and cons. But something serious needed to be done. They've removed .join, because it's easy and does solve the problem partially. Therefore I don't see them bringing it back, and of course they won't nerf PvP gear back.
The thing that is solved partially is those who where abusing it to every 30 min. kill the FP in order to harras... However at the same time it slightly increased it as now people need more world pvp of course most don't kill FP but they will camp people due to there being less battlegrounds to grant them the honor they require.

It is simply a bad solution to a simple issue...

When you have an issue 101 dictates that you look at what causes it first then you look at plausible solutions based upon that but here the target was missed and instead of solving the cause something related was simply looked upon...

It is similar to you having a scratch on your arm but instead of a disinfectant & bandaid on the wounded area i would be wrapping up your entire arm as if it is broken thus inconviniencing you and not solving the problem at its source...

The cause is bored people who see it as an easy objective to annoy others, germans call this "Schadenfreude".

Simply make it less of an easy objective to complete and reduce its effect at the source...
1. Reduce spawn from 10 to 3 min. reason people dislike it is becourse they have to wait.
2. Improve the FP so it is more troublesome taking on alone, increase all resists on FP & Pets to 200-300, then increase armor.
3. Increase range that FP calls in nearby guards from when attacked
Now not only would it be troublesome keeping the FP down for long it would also be very troublesome sheeping, freezing & slowing the birds. Yes it is still possible to kill at that point but who would if it no-longer annoys others and just puts too much effort on yourself ? spell pen & armor reduction can make it simpler but they will still be troublesome.

That is a roundabout way of doing things i know but it solved the problem at the source preventing it from being done over an extended amount of time even by farmers & bored people, it is still possible to do but its effect would not be huge. OH and most importantly its a solution that would not affect the game for the rest while removing .join not only affects those abusing it but also everyone else including those who have less time to play than you and me or pve player who doesnt want to bother walking to capital quing for pvp but it is just something he feels like doing if its easy to access at the spur of the moment.
 
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Topmong

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#53
Where you playing mate.

EA is better for WSG given how much you usually get peeled, and you can't count on always having a paladin with an available freedom next to you. Gnome is unappreciated in the current tryhard metagame where everyone's a pve racial potboy with ten pairs of goblin rocket boots.

Hardiness is probably better than Stoneform for rogue duels, in solo world pvp EA is again better.

FW and Desperate Prayer, or EA are better than WoTF in both solo pvp and teamplay, unless you are a rogue or dueling a succubus warlock in which case wotf is probably better (in solo play).

Warstomp is better than Meld in WSG and decent against evasion, but the few times I wpvp'd on my druid I found meld quite nice for drinking up.
 

Sunderwear

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#54
The thing that is solved partially is those who where abusing it to every 30 min. kill the FP in order to harras... However at the same time it slightly increased it as now people need more world pvp of course most don't kill FP but they will camp people due to there being less battlegrounds to grant them the honor they require.
MORE people choose horde to PVP as. Therefore MORE horde than alliance benefit from the ability to queue via .join.
How is this overly complex to you?
Less horde queueing for BGs is somehow magically making queues longer for horde? Excuse me?
Perhaps a wizard did it?

Look, no offense, but you pretty much agree to being one of the horde going out to do the griefing. It is difficult to take any of your made up on the spot statistics/times, even without taking into account your horde status.

The cause is bored people who see it as an easy objective to annoy others, germans call this "Schadenfreude".
Note: The irony of this statement is not lost on me. I wonder if you actually thought this through.
 
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gly

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#56
FW and Desperate Prayer, or EA are better than WoTF in both solo pvp and teamplay, unless you are a rogue or dueling a succubus warlock in which case wotf is probably better (in solo play).
Hey mate, don't forget that with cannibalise you can eat like Strength at dinner table
 

Cr0wL0ck

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#58
Less horde queueing for BGs is somehow magically making queues longer for horde? Excuse me?
Perhaps a wizard did it?

Look, no offense, but you pretty much agree to being one of the horde going out to do the griefing. It is difficult to take any of your made up on the spot statistics/times, even without taking into account your horde status.
First of all i did not say more horde quing reduces the que time you even quoted me yet you could not even take the time to read what you quote ?
Also what does me admitting to killing players in world pvp have to do with it ? Do you know the rules of a PvP server ?

Anyways ".join" made it simpler to que for those on a short schedule, they could que and see if they got lucky or let it be as they where busy farming PvE which is their priority without .join we loose the casual crowd who joins when bored.

Why do you think blizzard added que systems and refined them over time ? simple answer it makes it easier for players by saving a lot of effort & time and thus players do more.
 

Sunderwear

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#59
First of all i did not say more horde quing reduces the que time you even quoted me yet you could not even take the time to read what you quote ?
Wow, how about some critical thinking attempts?

Here let me post yet again the part that you left out that I included in my earlier reply:
MORE people choose horde to PVP as. Therefore MORE horde than alliance benefit from the ability to queue via .join.
That equates to faster queues if LESS HORDE queue.

Your use of "logic" in your thread title, coupled with your abject lack of critical thinking skills is astounding.
 
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Brochette

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#60
Wow, how about some critical thinking attempts?

Here let me post yet again the part that you left out that I included in my earlier reply:
MORE people choose horde to PVP as. Therefore MORE horde than alliance benefit from the ability to queue via .join.
That equates to faster queues if LESS HORDE queue.

Your use of "logic" in your thread title, coupled with your abject lack of critical thinking skills is astounding.
Don't bother answering to him anymore, you'll lose braincells.
Check here: https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?issue=11428 and check the few recent post for an example of pure autism.

I think the only solution is to show him some image about .join:


tips: the top right side is wsg, the left side is all horde using .join guess what happen when less people use .join
 

Cr0wL0ck

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#62
MORE people choose horde to PVP as. Therefore MORE horde than alliance benefit from the ability to queue via .join.
Less horde queueing for BGs is somehow magically making queues longer for horde? Excuse me?
Perhaps a wizard did it?
Here we have you talking to yourself literally... you first say that more horde players participate in pvp which anyone could tell and then you continue with saying if the majority reduced their need for pvp to be equal to alliance the que would feel shorter...

You do not seem to think about the problem at hand tho and that is that people want to que and leveling an alliance is too consuming and not something they desire to begin with.

Furthermore the .join increased ques from both playerbases obviously more horde than alliance but it still resulted in more battlegrounds within less time.

If 20 alliance and 40 horde que without .join it results in 2 full battlegrounds.
if 35 alliance and 80 horde que with join it results in 4 battlegrounds throughoutthe same duration.

Yes i intentionally exagerated the horde vs alliance difference a bit but it still proves the point.

Also what detterent prevents me from killing you in world pvp ? i wont get a que to suddenly leave you alone, my goal is not always honor sometimes i simply just kill due to you being of the opposing faction and i can still kill a flight path if i desired it heck the 3 first days after .join was removed i noticed alliance attacking grom'gol for 30-50+ min. around 10-12 pm server time just wanting fun instead of honor and farming the FP.

.join simply allows a bored PvE player who farms elemental fire or herb/ore to once in awhile que into PvP and thus not only pvp'ers joined but also the bored casual player.

Less people using .join simply reduces the amount of battlegrounds, there is no cap on how many battlegrounds can be open also more battlegrounds increases the odds of fighting a normal pug instead of premades however with less quing up it mainly benefits premade teams on the faction that has the least pvp such as alliance...


@Brochette try to reduce that tantrum of yours i pointed out what you posted came from TBC 2.4.3 and your comment links came from 2008 & 2010, furthermore i have not yet before this insulted you regardless of your childish manners. I repeatedly stated that i do not care what passive stance ends up as but simply that your sources are not appropriate for Vanilla.

Also please read forum rules... they clearly outline that derailing threads intentionally is against the rules so keep your tantrum confined to where it came from or preferably cut it out and discuss in a mature manner... you can even send me a PM if needed.

https://forum.twinstar.cz/threads/forum-rules-last-update-1-march-2017.67439/
  • It is forbidden to contribute to the discussion in a way that does not correspond with the topic and/or is not appropriate or relevant considering the forum section where the topic is placed. This rule does not apply to the "Sandbox" section.
The topic of this thread is .join and what it affects or if the reason for its removal was logical and perhaps that it should have been removed from all level ranges under the reason of being non-blizzlike instead. I do not desire to use the report function and thus i politely warn you to prevent further derailment.
 

Retherz

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#64
Wow, how about some critical thinking attempts?

Here let me post yet again the part that you left out that I included in my earlier reply:
MORE people choose horde to PVP as. Therefore MORE horde than alliance benefit from the ability to queue via .join.
That equates to faster queues if LESS HORDE queue.

Your use of "logic" in your thread title, coupled with your abject lack of critical thinking skills is astounding.
provide evidence that more people deliberately pick horde to pvp as. Why does it matter if horde having a larger pool of players benefit from .join, when alliance that choose to pvp get the exact same benefit? The queues are only faster if the games are shorter or the ratio of players queueing are closer to 1:1. If .join is removed, would not fewer alliance queue as you stated more people choose horde to pvp, thus the reluctant alliance players will be less likely to go through the hassle of playing battlegrounds now?
 

Sunderwear

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#65
provide evidence that more people deliberately pick horde to pvp as.
I had a snappy retort all planned, but what with crowlock's finger threateningly over the report button, I must needs hold off.

Here we have you talking to yourself literally... you first say that more horde players participate in pvp which anyone could tell and then you continue with saying if the majority reduced their need for pvp to be equal to alliance the que would feel shorter...
You simply cannot read what someone clearly types out without twisting the meaning, as once again evidenced by your wording above. You also may want to provide the requested evidence to retherz that PVPers choose horde more than alliance before you make crazy statements like that.
(Since you clearly have an issue understanding what I write, that last part was sarcasm)
 
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Cr0wL0ck

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#66
You also may want to provide the requested evidence to retherz that PVPers choose horde more than alliance before you make crazy statements like that.
the one who stated it was you...
MORE people choose horde to PVP as. Therefore MORE horde than alliance benefit from the ability to queue via .join.
How is this overly complex to you?
Please remember your own troll posts... it is by now quite clear you are simply trolling the forums, it is quite easy calling something "sarcasm" once you feel embarrased about it and it would be slightly more believable had you stated so early on and not a day later.

note: the reason i mentioned the report button was since we had an individual that was derailing the topic, you are not helping much with your trolling and contributing nothing to the case. IT is understandable that you feel inferior to me and thus see me as a threat that is fine however please stay on topic and discuss in a civilized manner as i have no interest in your foolish buffoonery.

Topic:
The topic of this thread is .join and what it affects or if the reason for its removal was logical and perhaps that it should have been removed from all level ranges under the reason of being non-blizzlike instead. I do not desire to use the report function and thus i politely warn you to prevent further derailment.
Once again my stance to this is that the reasoning of removing .join only for lvl 60 and with the reasoning of worlf pvp & flight paths being a silly reasoning that would never pass for a PvP server. I am fine if the reason was "non-blizzlike" but then remove for all leveling groups in one fell swoop so the effect can be properly seen and then judged if it should return in 3 months or if it should not depending the situation.
 

Sunderwear

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#67
the one who stated it was you...
Oh dear lord. I LITERALLY put the sarcasm line in there to clarify that it was meant to be humor. Once again you fail to understand words/context.

understandable that you feel inferior to me and thus see me as a threat that is fine however please stay on topic and discuss in a civilized manner as i have no interest in your foolish buffoonery.
...just...wow.
 

Orravan

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Aug 7, 2018
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#68
I'm quite late to the debate, because I just came back from a 3 months hiatus from the game, and just found out the changes about the .join feature.
I'm not yet concerned as I'm yet to level up my characters past 50, but the logic behind that decision elludes me.

I stopped playing retail by 2008, but back in Vanilla and BC, most of my time was spent doing world PvP (as high-end PvE bored me to death).
And I think a lot of people --mostly PvE oriented, I can tell-- don't quite understand the mechanics of world PvP, as seen from a PvPer perspective.


In my own case, unless I get lazy, world PvP will always take precedence over BGs, because it's more enjoyable, rewarding, challenging and fun. I don't care much about HKs or rewards, they're cool but I'm mostly in for the thrill of fighting someone else in the wild.
Incidentally, I usually only prey on people my level or above, and don't cheaply gank them while they're fighting a mob, as I believe it to be lame, unrewarding, and very bad practice to get good at PvP.

So I don't quite understand the reasoning from people complaining about that feature. Because if I have to chose between being stuck and pretty much idle in Orgrimmar waiting for a BG to open, and actively roaming in the wild looking for good fights, I'll go with the latter most of the time. Simply because it's more enjoyable (and spares me from wasting my time for a BG that eventually might not open).

And so, as a result, rather than roaming a region to hunt people down and occasionally disappearing for half an hour or more, giving you some space to breath, I'll be roaming non-stop because I won't have a choice anymore to join a BG on the go.
If I'm following the logic behind this request ("people are ganking us in region X because they can queue for BG from region X"), it's actually making it worse for you if you expect to PvE in peace, as I'll still be around looking for you, only the hunt won't get interrupted by a BG opening anymore.

It's fine by me though, because that's how it worked in Vanilla. But don't believe it's easing up the ganks. Because it doesn't.
Not everyone plays like I do, obviously, but if you played Vanilla on a PvP server, then you know that, despite missing the possibility to queue for BGs on the go, ganking happened all the same. All the time. Everywhere. Indiscriminately.

If you actually believe it has anything to do with that feature, you are deluding yourself. It's just inherent to any open-world PvP game.
It's down to players to not stoop as low as farming cheap kills. It's a community thing, not a gameplay/mechanic thing.


That being said, a note though: I'm new to private servers (merely 6 months), but as far as I know, almost all of them are PvP ones, which is why I don't go hard on people unwilling to PvP.
I do think they're missing out, but PvE-oriented players don't get a choice if they want to enjoy Vanilla WoW at its finest the same as everybody else. PvP servers are virtually the only option for them.

On the other hand, PvE-oriented players gotta understand that world PvP, at its core, isn't about griefing. It does happen, some people are assholes and will definitely gank and corpse-camp you. But at its core, it's all about confronting other players and having a good fight, most of the time unexpectedly. Trying to alter this because you're adverse to fights is just killing the whole idea of a PvP server.

You just gotta be a bit paranoid and expect to be jumped on as you're doing your chores in the wild -- and so learn to behave accordingly and get a plan to either fight back or flee when it happens.
It doesn't matter if you're not that much into PvP, you can often manage to get away with it if it's done right.


A last note, about the feature itself.
Back in Vanilla, most people willingly joined PvP servers and thus were expecting to fight other players, so the queues were more easily filled, as people were eager to fight and focused more on PvP.
On private servers mixing up PvP and PvE-oriented players, it's not that much the case, and being able to queue on the go is a tremendous workaround to avoid having to wait an hour for a BG to open.

I also think the Kronos team should add it to the log-on message, because I found out that even as of today, a lot of people, if not most of them, don't even know that feature exists at all. Which, unsurprisingly, make for terrifying long queues (at least under 50-60), as most people believe they have to queue in a city to get into a BG, thus skipping it altogether while they're leveling.
 

Retherz

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#69
In my own case, unless I get lazy, world PvP will always take precedence over BGs, because it's more enjoyable, rewarding, challenging and fun.
if killing afkers, levelers, farmers and people generally not wanting or prepared to fight is challenging, enjoyable and rewarding for you then you are probably the one challenged
 

Orravan

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#70
if killing afkers, levelers, farmers and people generally not wanting or prepared to fight is challenging, enjoyable and rewarding for you then you are probably the one challenged

I suggest you actually read the posts you're replying to, considering that's not what I said in mine, nor what I do ingame, and that you're missing my point entirely.

If it's too long a read for you, then rather than disregarding its actual content to cheaply put words into my mouth to satisfy your own perception of what world PvP is, it's probably better to skip it altogether.
Because I'm not interested in debating with frustrated, intellectually dishonest, and gratuitously quarrelsome people.

Cheers.
 

Brochette

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#71
I'm quite late to the debate, because I just came back from a 3 months hiatus from the game, and just found out the changes about the .join feature.
I'm not yet concerned as I'm yet to level up my characters past 50, but the logic behind that decision elludes me.
.
Tbh if you had any logic, you would easily understand why .join increased queue time at server start. (sarcasm from 2d post/1st page here).

I liked Retherz answer a lot.

https://forum.twinstar.cz/threads/remove-join-bg-command.124831/page-4#post-885410
 

Orravan

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#72
Tbh if you had any logic, you would easily understand why .join increased queue time at server start. (sarcasm from 2d post/1st page here).

Yes I've read your first reply, but the effect it supposedly has on queue time isn't what I'm talking about (and tbfh I don't really care about this, queue time will always be dependent on the number of people from both factions willing to queue for BGs, whether the .join command is available or not).


What I'm actually pointing out here is that the very reason for restricting this feature past level 50 --i.e. the effect it supposedly has on ganking and FP/corpse camping in world PvP-- doesn't make any sense.

The crushing majority of people doing world PvP and "griefing" you do so because:
1) they enjoy a fight ;
2) they want HKs ; or
3) both of those.

It's as simple as that. Being able to queue in the wild is just a convenient but entirely bonus feature. That's just about it.
Removing this feature won't prevent them from camping you (and why would it?). It will just make them stay around continuously rather than occasionally leaving for a BG.

Again, I can't stress enough that Vanilla didn't have a .join command, yet ganks and camps were still widespread, because it's inherent to PvP servers.
Which is why the logic behind this decision eludes me, as it doesn't make any sense and isn't grounded in any reality.
At best, it's just a placebo for PvE players.


To expand a bit on this, it feels like a lot of PvE-oriented players don't quite understand the realities of world PvP -- which does indeed make sense if most of them never played on retail PvP servers.
It feels like they low-key believe that PvP basically belongs to BGs (even though BGs were introduced 7 months after release), and attacking somebody in contested regions makes you an asshole.
But world PvP and the random gratuitous aggressions going with it has always been an integral part of WoW on PvP servers.

The intrinsic insecurity, the possibility of getting unexpectedly jumped on by someone from the other faction is the whole point of an open-world PvP server, it's literally the reason they exist at all. You have to expect to be attacked, whether it happens or not.
In Vanilla, if you wanted to feel secure while grinding or travelling, you would just pick a PvE server.
If you didn't, then you learned to be careful, to watch your surrounding, you found ways to avoid or flee a fight if you felt you couldn't make it, and you called for help when things were getting out of hand -- which often resulted in great fights.

World PvPers aren't sadistic, psychopathic basement dwellers venting out their frustration on peaceful grinders, most of them are just expecting to enjoy a good fight outside the boring, repetitive and neatly boxed instances BGs are.
Fights in battlegrounds are different from world PvP fights, they both offer a different PvP experience, just like running a dungeon and questing outdoor both offers a different PvE experience.

As an outdoor pseudo-dungeon, Jintha'Alor was the best of all worlds, running it with a group and hacking your way to the boss, only to find yourself confronted to a group from the other faction doing just the same but from the other way, was always an epic moment on PvP servers.
It's a shame there weren't more places like this.


Anyway, in the end, the "problem" lies with PvE-oriented players expecting to be able to play on a PvP server pretty much like they would on a PvE server, which is outright delusion.
I already emphasized that PvE-oriented players don't really have a choice, as the good, stable and populated private servers are all PvP, as far as I know, and they have to deal with that to be able to enjoy Vanilla WoW like the rest of us.

But K3 is a PvP server, and they have to acknowledge that getting jumped on by the other faction and possibly getting outnumbered goes with logging in.
If it unfortunately allows assholes to be assholes, it also allows for a great deal of outdoor fun. It's down to the community to behave in a non-toxic way.
 

Brochette

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#73
You make no sense, .join has nothing to do with your way of seeing world pvp.

I'll make it simple for simple minded people.

Me Horde 60, us more than ally, me want pvp rank, me want more honor for fast pvp rank, but queue pvp 30 mins long! me camp green lvl ally in leveling aera during queue downtime to be 1st me so smart, lol noob ally too easy to kill in grey gear. WTF KRONOS queue is 2h long now pvp is broken where is alliance 60?

Alliance basically dont need to use the features, they get instant queue.
Leveling alliance population decreased out of disgust being camped 24h/24 by premades of 10 lvl 60 trying to outrank each other versus few lvl 51-55 and ultimatly joined the new server.
It's logical, people don't like to waste time, being camped for 4 hours without any chance to retaliate isn't fun.
Fewer alliance reached 60 than expected, increasing the problem.

Then why remove it at lvl 50? because people abused it to get constant bg queue and outrank lvl 60 by playing 10 times less, forcing lvl 60 to camp more to get ahead in standing increasing once more the problem.

It's basic logic, it's causality. Many predicted this issue weeks before the opening, and it happened exactly like expected.

I don't get your problem, this features shouldnt' be present at the start and should be added way later just before AQ when the leveling population is less significant in order to maintain pvp interest while farming rep.
 

Orravan

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#74
.join has nothing to do with your way of seeing world pvp.

It does though: considering that's not how I play nor what actually happened in Vanilla (at least not on such a large scale if I am to take your word on it), I wouldn't imagine that premade groups of 10 lvl 60s would stoop so low as purposely group-roam EPL and whatnot to farm HKs while waiting for the BG to open.

Call me a naive if you will, but there's no need to be toxic and antagonistic about it. You could've simply pointed out that piece of information I obviously missed.

I appreciate you took the time to clear it up for me though. It does make sense now, indeed.
 

Topmong

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#75
I wouldn't imagine that premade groups of 10 lvl 60s would stoop so low as purposely group-roam EPL and whatnot to farm HKs while waiting for the BG to open.
That's exactly what happened on K3, though. In addition to a certain Horde premade group splitting up and camping level 50 FP's during their queues.
 
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