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Mage Leveling: Spell Damage VS Int/Stam ?

gotmilk0112

New Member
Joined
May 2, 2016
I've been wondering for a while if, while leveling, one should be using +spell damage greens, or int/stam/spirit stuff?

I've got about 45 or 50 +frost damage from the Azure set + some Frozen Wrath greens, at the moment, and they do make quite a noticeable difference in damage for Frostbolt, but is it better to just have higher int/stam?
 
stam and spirit dont do much for mage. Sp > int but reasonably, quality of the item matters aswell. The water you make is also weaker than your current levels. Get too much mana and youll spend 2 minutes drinking.
 
If you want to spam improved Blizzard on many enemies, go for more intellect, otherwise spellpower is better to take advantage of the fact that you're a ranged class and most foes are only able to attack in melee.
 
Just make your thoughts how much your spell benefits from spell power. Most of the time (casting time/3,5)*spell power is the correct value (for detailsearch for the big theorycrafting thread in the kronos general forums). So if you get e.g. 25 spell damage bonus on a frost bolt, just compare it with the mana cost of a frostbolt. If your fb e.g. costs 150 mana and does 100 damage in average, then 25 damage is 1/4 of those 150 mana 37.5 mana.

So you need so much int that it's worth 37.5 mana to be as effective as your 50 spell power (numbers are not correct, you need to fill in the correct values ofc).


But this way of playing has two big downsides:
- you need to drink longer to fill your mana
- spells don't do more damage, you can only cast more spells until oom.

And some advantages:
- according to wowwiki on lower levels you gain MORE crit per int then on level 60
- "of the eagle" gear is easy to get and cheap, good spell damage gear is almost non existent on low levels
- in pvp situations and aoe grinding you have better survivability
 
So you need so much int that it's worth 37.5 mana to be as effective as your 50 spell power (numbers are not correct, you need to fill in the correct values ofc).

:blink:

That makes no sense and you are not taking into effect increase kill time = less damage taken / more experience per hour.

It's not about how much damage can be done with your mana pool which is what you are suggesting. It's how much can I do in the shortest amount of time.

You are a mage, you have mana gems (CARRY DIFFERENT RANKS AT THE SAME TIME) / mana pots / evocation if needed.

SP > Stam > Int /thread
 
:blink:

That makes no sense and you are not taking into effect increase kill time = less damage taken / more experience per hour.

It's not about how much damage can be done with your mana pool which is what you are suggesting. It's how much can I do in the shortest amount of time.

I made that difference clear, just read again. Op was asking if int/stam or spell power is better and as you hopefully know it depends on several factors (some mentioned in my last post).
 
You have to build for what you are doing. Your nukes scale better with +dmg than most of your other spells so you need to figure out how you want to grind. AoE grinding with mages is the best exp/hour bar none in the game. Unfortunately, due to the huge overpopulation of the server, it's pretty much practically impossible at this point. Maybe in the later game, but not anything before 40 I can tell you that.

AoEing
If you intend on aoeing, the only things that matter are stam and intel. You have to have the stam to survive the beating you're going to take while you gather the mobs up, and a shit ton of mana to cast enough expensive AoEs along with FNs CoCs and Blinks until the mobs are dead.

Nuking
Nuking is good for single target dps. It's also the best if you intend on doing lots of dungeons since this is where your main dps is coming from. Since your nukes make better use of SpellDmg it's highly valued, and enough of it will significantly increase your dps. Stam isn't so important on trash as you'll have the mobs close to, and in later levels, dead, before they even reach you. However, you'll also have to worry about longevity, and even at high levels, you'll still only be able to do about 3 mobs before you're on your ass drinking (more on this later). Now here's the thing, and it's what Chainsaw was trying to say above, albeit, not very effectively. Spell damage = Mana (Int.) The more damage you do, the less nukes you have to cast, aka the more mana you save. There's a tipping point there somewhere, but that will change depending on what level you are so it's not even worth theorycrafting. Baasically, after level 30, Spell damage becomes much more valuable, and maybe a tad earlier for frost.

Stam vs Intel vs Spirit
I talked about stam in the beginning, and the short answer generally is stam for aoe, intel and/or spirit for everything else. If this was a pve server that would be the end of it. However, this is a pvp server, and you have to be prepared for ganking and in PVP Stam is king, so don't entirely neglect it. For dungeons, theoretically, it's very low on your priority list as you're not (supposed) to be getting hit. In reality, many of the so called "tanks" while leveling couldn't hold aggro on a mob if it sat on his face and you tied it to him. Spell power will only complicate this issue.

As for Int vs Spirit. That's going to change based on your level and spec. From 1 -20 Stam is going to be your priority stat. Mages are very low healthed and even low level mobs can be challenging. However, since you're working with mostly your base stats, your spirit is still very high in ratio to your mana and health, so you will regen them quickly, so pick intel over spirit. Prior to level 30, spirit will only do anything for you in between fights (unless you're arcane, again, more on this later) so it's value is limited. However, at 30, you get mage armor, which allows you to regen 30% of your mana regen while casting. This is practicaly mandatory in dungeons, although it's use is more debatable in the open world. Spirit will make this amazing as 30% of a low number is an even lower number, but 30% of a big number can be a lot of mana over the course of a fight. This ability more than anything, is what makes spirit work for mages. Don't undervaue it. This is the point where you'll have to decide to go for a tough mage vs a long casting mage for grinding, but for dungeons, spirit beats intel hands down.

Some personal preferences

Pro tip #1.
This is my third mage (not including the partially level mages I did on Nos and K1).I've forget more about mages than most people will ever know, and I'm still learning things about the mage. From the moment I rolled my first toon, a mage, 12 years ago, I fell in love with fire. The crackling of the fire and the roar as it left my hands...the smell of charred wolf and burnt kobald around the abbey...aah the memories. But I digress. Needless to say, I leveled my first mage as a full blown pyromancer, so leveling a nuker mage is certainly viable, but not the most efficient in terms of kills per hour based on downtime. My second mage when i rerolled Horde I was much the wiser and leveled it as AoE frost. While I'll concede that frost is a better build for leveling and much better for aoe, fire will always have a special place in my heart. My advice, spec for efficiency while leveling, play what you like at end game.

Pro tip #2
Arcane is the BOMB!!! People are infatuated with big numbers, which has most likley been the reason why AM have long been considered the worst of our nukes. But if you can get passed not having massive uber crits, consider this. The arcane tree has 2 very important talents, while requiring 10 talent points between the two of them is quite expensive, what they do for AM is amazing. The first one in tier 1 makes your AMs immune to set backs. While you can throw all your theory crafted dps numbers at me all you like, do it while that undead rogue/warrior/hunter pet/mob is bashing your face in while you're trying to cast a frost bolt at him. Likewise, use AMs on a mage/warlock/priest trying to cast nukes at you and see how well it works out for him and tell me about how poor it's dps is.

The second is in the second tier of the tree, clearcasting. Five talents gives you a ten percent chance that any damage spell that hits (resists are bad, take those + to hit talents) will make your next damage spell free. While for most mage spells this is rather meh, especially for five talents, there's two spells that makes this talent an amazing OMGWTFFACEROLLLULZ talent, Blizzard and AM. See, they don't just have the chance to proc CC when you cast them, but on each wave of Blizzard or charge of AM. This means on average every other AM will proc CC, but in reality, you'll get multiple procs in a row, which leads us to the next point. AM is a five second cast spell. Spells cast under the infuence of CC, don't count towards resetting your five second timer for mana regen. While you won't get your mana regen to kick in if you chain it AM, any proc of CC means you will have full mana regen while casting under the influence of CC. Add in mage armor and you're regening mana even while your not under the influence, and if you combine mage armor with an arcane talent further down the tree that gives an additional 15% mana regen while casting, you're regening mana at 45% while casting. Spirit starts looking really amazing. I get absolutely giddy while grinding when I get a "free" mob kill. I'll start of with CC up from the last fight, cast AM on the next mob, and CC will proc the entire fight, meaning not only did I not spend any mana to kill the mob, but I also regend mana at full regen the entire fight ending with more mana than I started with. Think about that for that minute you're sitting there downing a couple more bottles of fresh spring water. I'll literally just chew through mobs with clearcasting and AM with little down time. Certainly far less than with the other two nuking builds.

Damage from AM is also severely under-rated. of the three nukes, AM scales the best with spell damage, with over 100% of your spell damage (If I remember correctly). Put your first ten talent points into improving your AM and CC and you can maniacally lol at the frost mage in DM as he's wanding every boss and every other mob fight oom while you're still doing full nuke damage. If you've ever played an affliction warlock, you'll understand the concept very well. While an Aff lock will never beat a mage's damage in short mob fights, let him get those dots rolling on long boss fights coupled with their high spell damage coefficients, and superb longevity, and at the end of the fight all those small numbers put him at the top of the damage done meter. AM is pretty much the same. Think of it as a more powerful channeled mage dot.

It's not all sunshine and candy though, arcane does have a few downsides.

You'll take more damage with AM because the mob will have more time to beat on you.. I find myself having to rest more often because of lack of health than from lack of mana while grinding because AM doesn't kill as fast as other nukes. But it's much faster to regen health especially with a bandaid than drinking a mana bar back up. Spell damage will reduce this significantly, which has it's own issues taking us to the next point on the list...

+Arcane damage can be harder to get a hold of than frost or fire damage gear. Optimally, you want generic spell damage gear, unfortunately prior to the 40s,most low level gear is school specific, which rather forces you to stick with your chosen tree. While there is frost and fire damage gear in the early levels of tailoring, there is no arcane damage craftable gear and generic spell damage is non existent until the 40s. This leaves you with searching the AH for +arcane damage greens, which considering how everyone 'knows' that most mages eschew the arcane tree for damage, can be rather harder to find than frost or fire, although not entirely impossible. Still, with AMs spell damage coeficient, a few good pieces is all you need.

Use clearcasting wisely. CC works the best with AM and Blizzard. A free Fireblast, Fireball or Frostbolt is meh, and it's chances of proccing another CC is..well...one in ten, pretty low compared to AM. And whatever you do, don't waste it on a frost nova unless it's to save your life.

Don't neglect your other schools, in use or in talents. Resists are a thing in Vanilla, and there will be mobs where you'll have to switch to a different school than your preferred because of it, and it helps a great deal to have two talented nukes with which to pull from. Personally, while leveling, I prefer to couple with frost. In fact after 10 points in arcane, I go down the frost tree first. A frost bolt is great for an opening any time you don't have CC up to keep the mob off you that much longer conserving health, so the talent that increases your slow's uptime is great, and since your going to be more apt to use Blizzard over your other AoE's, a talented Blizzard is almost a necessity. And then the holy grail of frost, frost barrier negates a great deal of the damage you'll take while grinding significantly.

Well I hope that gave you some ideas and cleared a few things up. Best of luck out there and have fun! :w00t:
 
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See, they don't just have the chance to proc CC when you cast them, but on each wave of Blizzard or charge of AM.

It doesn't work like this on Kronos. At least, that's what I read around these forums. People were saying that Blizzard does not proc clearcasting at all, and that it should not be proccing every hit, just on the initial cast.

Even with all that you said, Arcane still seems like it's shit compared to Frost or Fire. With Frost, I'm throwing out crits for 30-40% of a mob's health, that don't cost much mana, and I'm slowing the mob on top of that.

In addition, you get Ice Block and Ice Barrier, two amazingly useful defensive skills. Arcane has no such defensive skills. Arcane has...50% of int -> armor, which sucks because you don't stack int while leveling, and it has a slight increase to Mana Shield absorption. That's it. Those are terrible compared to Ice Barrier, Ice block, increased slowing effects, and chance to get a 5-second frost nova on chill effects.

Think about that for that minute you're sitting there downing a couple more bottles of fresh spring water.

If you're spending a "minute" drinking, you're doing something horribly wrong. At most int levels while leveling, the highest level drink you can use will restore between 70-85% of your mana during its 30 second duration; and your natural regen will cover the rest.

I might humor you though, and try out Arcane for a change. But it's really going to suck having almost no defenses when I get ganked by the hoards of UD rogues on this server.

Okay, I tried Arcane a bit, and...yeah, this really sucks.

Clearcasting DOES seem to proc off of Arcane Missiles ticks, but that's just about the only positive I found about Arcane. It does less DPS than Frost, takes way more damage, and has way less defenses overall. Fighting an equal-level mob would take me down to 50-60% health. Yeah, it used less mana overall due to clearcasting procs, but that doesn't make up for the lower DPS and tons of damage intake. You'll be blowing through so many bandages just to complete a single quest.

Frostbolt currently hits for about 450 with my current gear with a 2.5 second cast, whereas Arcane Missiles was hitting for 138 / tick, or 690 over its 5 second duration, or 755 if you factor in at least 1 crit.

So in those 5 seconds, I can do 900 with Frostbolts, or 755 with Arcane Missiles. And that's not even counting Frostbolt crits, which happen very often due to Shatter giving +50% crit against rooted targets. Frostbolt crits hit for 850-915 or so.

And on top of the damage, you have Ice Barrier to shield against any damage taken, whereas Mana Shield only absorbs physical. And you also have Ice Block, which is invaluable in PvP, and can save you from death in PvE as well. AND...you have Permafrost boosting your Frostbolt up to a 50% slowing effect. Being able to throw out a 1-sec cast Rank 1 Frostbolt that slows 50% for 8 seconds is really, really useful for kiting.

If anything, Arcane would be better suited to group play, as you'd take a long time to go OOM with all those clearcasting procs. But for endgame, you'll be /lol'd at because it's still less DPS than Frost or Fire.
 
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It doesn't work like this on Kronos. At least, that's what I read around these forums. People were saying that Blizzard does not proc clearcasting at all, and that it should not be proccing every hit, just on the initial cast.

I can attest Blizzard definitely does proc CC. I'm not sure if that's because it's been recently fixed or not, but it is working as intended atm. Also CC is bugged atm. It doesn't just proc off of damaging spell hits. It procs off of just about any spell the mage casts. I've had it proc off of summoning, water/food/mana gems, buffs, blink, hell even teleporting. With the exception of it proccing off of your shields, none of that will particularly benefit you while in combat though.

Even with all that you said, Arcane still seems like it's shit compared to Frost or Fire. With Frost, I'm throwing out crits for 30-40% of a mob's health, that don't cost much mana, and I'm slowing the mob on top of that.

Case in point, like I said, people are easily wowed by big numbers. You are correct, AM has almost no burst whatsoever, but that's just not it's strength. Frost is the polar opposite There's nothing wrong with that if that's how you like to play. But those crits in frost aren't as cheap as you make them out to be. Yeah Frostbolt itself is cheap, but to get those crits, you have to finagle with your frost abilities to pull them out. First have cast frost nova the mob, since that's Frost's gateway into it's crit burst damage, then you chain that frostbolt with a CoC, which is definitely not cheap. Meanwhile I did that with one arcane missles, proced clearcasting and did it again for no mana. It's just a matter of play style and efficiency. Don't confuse high burst dps with high damage over time. The two are not mutually conclusive.

In addition, you get Ice Block and Ice Barrier, two amazingly useful defensive skills. Arcane has no such defensive skills. Arcane has...50% of int -> armor, which sucks because you don't stack int while leveling, and it has a slight increase to Mana Shield absorption. That's it. Those are terrible compared to Ice Barrier, Ice block, increased slowing effects, and chance to get a 5-second frost nova on chill effects.

Yes your are correct, arcane doesn't have any defenses, but you forgot where I said to not ignore your other schools of magic and use them in conjunction with arcane. You can still have all these abilities, it only requires 2 talents in the arcane tree to benefit from AM and CC. You can still work your way down the frost tree, which you can still use for pvp, burst on demand, etc, and if you wish you can respec at 40 to get Ice Barrier and go pure Frost if you like. It's just another tool in your arsenal. As for intel into armor, that talent sucks. First, it's based on your intel stat not, your mana, so at 60 say you have 150 intel, 50% of that is 75, so an extra 75 armor. Woo, be still my heart. It's a junk talent, never take it. Besides, I think spirit is better for arcane than intel to benefit from mana regen while clearcasting.

And yes i do, or at least, was, stacking intel because I originally had intended on aoe grinding, however, due to circumstances on the server, that's not going to work out too well, and gear is terribly hard to find on the AH right now. I've been converting over to frost damage gear and now have 5 peices that give me frost damage, my gear is still shit though, with most being early 20s gear (I'm level 35) yet I still have over 2300 mana, even w/o actively seeking intel. My water restores 1300 mana. And that's only going to get worse as I level up until i get new water at level 38ish I think, then I get to restart that process all over again. Mages have huge mana pool because we need them, it's just how the class is.
 
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Case in point, like I said, people are easily wowed by big numbers.

And those "big numbers" are much higher DPS than Arcane Missiles.

That's the point I'm making.

I don't see why being "wowed" by doing more DPS, is somehow a bad thing.

You still have downtime with Arcane spec, in the form of having to bandage/eat every 2 mobs due to how much damage you're taking. On a PvP server this can be especially dangerous, because enemy players will be more tempted to gank you when you're low on health.

but to get those crits, you have to finagle with your frost abilities to pull them out. First have cast frost nova the mob

Psst.

Frostbite.

15% chance to proc on ANY chill effect. This includes Frost/Ice Armor. So each Frostbolt has a 15% chance of freezing the target and giving you a free crit.

I'm kinda questioning your experience with Mages if you think Frost Nova is the only way to use Shatter.

then you chain that frostbolt with a CoC, which is definitely not cheap.

Why would I use Cone of Cold on a mob that's 30 yards away from me? You don't use shatter combos while leveling, you just spam frostbolt until it's dead, to be mana-efficient.

You can still have all these abilities, it only requires 2 talents in the arcane tree to benefit from AM and CC.

But the thing is, Frost gets its high damage from Ice Shards, which only applies to Frost spells. And to get AM/CC and still have Ice Barrier, requires level 50. And even then, I'd still rather just keep using Frostbolt because it's much higher DPS.

MAYBE at level 50 when you can get Ice Barrier and 5/5 Arcane Conc, spamming Arcane Missiles might be more efficient overall. But without something to block damage, Arcane Missile spam is just not very good at all.

My water restores 1300 mana.

Then you're using the wrong water.

https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?item=1645
 
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Between blink, CoC and frost nova I'm not getting hurt much at all. Missiles naturally does more dps than frostbolt, has more talents to go around as frost is so frontloaded, and gets a much higher hit chance. I like hitting my targets. After trying both they are just so similar in speed.
 
Between blink, CoC and frost nova I'm not getting hurt much at all.

Isn't the point of Arcane to just spam missiles so you don't use much mana? If you're going to be kiting every mob with CoC/Frost Nova, you might as well just be playing Frost.

Missiles naturally does more dps than frostbolt

Then why are all raiding mages Frost or Fire? :shifty:

As I pointed out above, Frostbolt tends to do more DPS on average, even without crits.

Frostbolt currently hits for about 450 with my current gear with a 2.5 second cast, whereas Arcane Missiles was hitting for 138 / tick, or 690 over its 5 second duration, or 755 if you factor in at least 1 crit.

Arcane Missiles is not higher DPS.

gets a much higher hit chance.

Which isn't an issue unless you're fighting mobs 3+ levels higher than you. Frost gets +6% hit. This is enough to reach the 99% cap against mobs that are 2 levels higher than you.

/shrug

After trying both they are just so similar in speed.
Frost in general is much better on a PvP server though, since you get Ice Barrier and Ice Block, as well as improved slowing effect on all of your slows.

Arcane leaves you a sitting duck because your only damage-absorbing ability not only drains your mana really fast, but only absorbs physical damage.

How exactly did you play Arcane though? I'm curious. I found myself just channeling arcane missiles until the mob was dead, giving almost as fast kill speed as Frost, while using barely any mana because of Arcane Concentration. The problem with this is that equal-level mobs would smack me for 50-60% of my health before they died, and on a PvP server that is extremely dangerous because opposing faction will just jump at the chance to gank someone who is already missing half their health.

Arcane seems nice as a group spec because you can just spam Arcane Missiles endlessly and never OOM, but for leveling, on a PvP server, I would not recommend it at all.
 
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Hey GotMilk,

Sorry but I missed the post you made just before my last post, so let me clarify a few things.

First, I thought you were a much lower level than what you are. By what you originally said I thought you were still in your teens and you're obviously near 60. Second, some of what I've stated applies strictly to raiding, not open world grinding, I should have been more clear in those cases.

AM with CC procs I think is a much more efficient nuke in the lower levels when mobs don't hit as hard, mana is limited, and frost just doesn't have the punch it needs without the gear and talents to back it up. However, I agree with your assessment, that later on, frost surpasses AM spam, certainly with increased survivability, and on a pvp server, that's nothing to sneeze at. I too respecced in my mid 30s to full frost. Although having an uninteruptable CM is great for a backup nuke, you probably won't see it again until close to or after 50. If you predominantly level in dungeons up to 60, it could be worth keeping, but after 30, it's use in open world grinding becomes more limited.

As far as the "big numbers" thing, I was stating that in regards to raiding, it still applies, but that's for raid damage over long boss fights, where dps and overall damage don't necessarily coincide. As for just grinding low health mobs, yes crit dps looks far more attractive, but, don't confuse faster kills with more kills per hour. An affliction warlock doesn't kill a mob anywhere nearly as fast as a mage, but an affliction warlock is far more efficient, and has almost none, and at a certain point, will not have any, downtime. The end result, bar mage's aoe grinding, an affliction warlock will have very close to if not more kills per hour than a mage do to the mage's down time. The point I was trying to make was that early on, AM and CC work more efficiently like an affliction warlock with less downtime versus Fireball or frost bolt, producing slower kills, but more kills per hour over all.

Speaking of crits, I've never been a big fan of frostbite. If you intend on strictly nuking with frost and have no intention of aoe grinding it could be ok I guess, but I prefer to have the option open to do either and it pretty much kills aoe grinding. In group situations it's practically worthless as your group mates will break it long before your next FB leaves your hands. I'd take it for pvp but that's about it.

I'm speculating here, as I haven't ever used vanilla arcane before and I haven't quite hit 60 yet, but I think there could be a resurgence for the value of AM at end game in 2 ways. First, later on you can always go with the much wooed over PoM/Pyro build if that's your flavor, and with high enough quality of gear, AM will kill world trash fast enough that survivability is a non-issue. And second, I think it can have a place in early end game pve, notably, 5 man dungeons and early raiding. Yes most early raiding mages are frost, but that's largely because Winter's Chill works for every frost mage in the raid. Hence the old vanilla raid guild's preference for stacking the raid with mage dps because one debuff worked for every mage in the raid. However, there were a lot of preconceptions in old vanilla raiding that just isn't true, and while stacking a raid with mages is a very viable tactic for getting server and world firsts, it isn't the be all, end all options on how to build a raid group.

That said, I think AM might beat out frost early on for two reasons, it has 10% hit in talents for AM versus Frost's 6%, and AM spam with mage armor and Arcane Meditation means you can probably spam AM all day long and never see the bottom of your mana bar. But once mana becomes a non-issue, again the survivability of frost with Ice Barrier and Ice Block looks more attractive, coupled with the fact that it will scale better with crit than AM. Ultimately, I think Arcane ends up working like affliction warlocks in BC, it's may be an option for an opening tree to raiding, but due to the way it scales with gear, becomes obsolete after working past the first set of raid dungeons. Ultimately I suppose it's a moot point, as after MC, fire is the primo raid dps spec and puts both of the other two to shame.

I hope that clears things up in the points I'm trying to make.
 
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don't confuse faster kills with more kills per hour. An affliction warlock doesn't kill a mob anywhere nearly as fast as a mage, but an affliction warlock is far more efficient, and has almost none, and at a certain point, will not have any, downtime.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Priest and Paladin level like that; playing with a style that has less damage, but little/no downtime, leading to more kills per hour.

The problem I ran into with Arcane is that you still have downtime, in the form of bandaging/eating because you're taking so much damage. And if you get unlucky with Arcane Conc procs, you can still lose a lot of mana and be forced to drink.

Speaking of crits, I've never been a big fan of frostbite. If you intend on strictly nuking with frost and have no intention of aoe grinding it could be ok I guess, but I prefer to have the option open to do either and it pretty much kills aoe grinding. In group situations it's practically worthless as your group mates will break it long before your next FB leaves your hands. I'd take it for pvp but that's about it.

Frostbite only has 1 downside: no AoE grinding

Since you can't AoE grind on Kronos (too high population) that downside is eliminated.

I'll gladly take a free 15% chance to freeze the target and get a free crit as well. It's way more useful than +6% damage.

I'm speculating here, as I haven't ever used vanilla arcane before

So why are you talking so positively about it if you've never actually used it?

I'm actually testing out Arcane builds and finding them to just be crap compared to Frost.

Now that I'm 49, I'm able to get Ice Barrier and 4/5 Arcane Concentration, and...honestly, it still sucks because if you get unlucky with AC procs, you lose a LOT of mana. My kill speed was roughly the same as Frost, except I used a lot more mana and had the mob in my face attacking me the whole time, instead of being kept at range with slows and snares.

...Also, I'm finding that a LOT of mobs in Searing Gorge have very high Arcane resist, reducing my damage to 75 or 50%. :angry:

I did just one, ONE quest with this Arcane build, and I was drinking every 3 mobs due to not getting enough Arcane Concentration procs.

So, in theory, Arcane SEEMS like a better choice, but in practice, it's not really. The RNG of Arcane Concentration is far too much, and on top of that, you take way more damage than a Frost or Fire build.

it has 10% hit in talents for AM versus Frost's 6%
You don't need 10% hit for leveling.

Vanilla spell hit caps at 99%, no matter how much hit you have, mobs will always have 1% chance to resist. 6% you get from Elemental Precision is enough to cap you at 99% for mobs 2 levels higher than you.

and AM spam with mage armor and Arcane Meditation means you can probably spam AM all day long and never see the bottom of your mana bar.

And again, Arcane Concentration is just too RNG-heavy to really "spam all day long". I killed over 40 mobs with AM spam and was having still to drink every 3 mobs due to bad RNG on Arcane Concentration procs.

I'd really love for Arcane to work, but it's just not working out for me at all.
 
Yeah, I know what you mean. Priest and Paladin level like that; playing with a style that has less damage, but little/no downtime, leading to more kills per hour.
The problem I ran into with Arcane is that you still have downtime, in the form of bandaging/eating because you're taking so much damage. And if you get unlucky with Arcane Conc procs, you can still lose a lot of mana and be forced to drink.


Below level 30, you're going to have down time no matter what class or spec you're playing, but for a mage that can burn through a massive 3k mana bar in 2 to 3 mobs, anything that extends that downtime is amazing. Yes you suffer downtime from having to eat more, but I found that in my 20s and 30s, I could easily go 5 and 6 mobs before having to eat and drink, where as frost or fire nuking, it was 2 or 3 at the most. Plus it's far quicker to restore the health bar than it is the mana bar. stopping to eat for 20 secondds or stopping to drink for 45 seconds.

Frostbite only has 1 downside: no AoE grinding

Since you can't AoE grind on Kronos (too high population) that downside is eliminated.

I'll gladly take a free 15% chance to freeze the target and get a free crit as well. It's way more useful than +6% damage.


I get where you're coming from, but it's just a personal choice. I prefer to keep my options open. I'll still take any chance to aoe grind I can get.

So why are you talking so positively about it if you've never actually used it?


Because from level 19 - my mid 30's I had great results with it, and just as good if not better results in dungeons with it. But you also have to extrapolate how different builds are going to work with gear changes. What works at 30 doesn't necessarily work at 50, and what works at a fresh 60 may not work as well as a fully raid geared 60. But mostly, boredom. I've done every cookie cutter build under the sun, so I'm keenly interested in seeing how arcane works pre and early raid just simply because i've never done it before, and I already know how fire and frost work. It's still going to be a one button wonder, but then what spec isn't in vanilla.

I'm actually testing out Arcane builds and finding them to just be crap compared to Frost.

Now that I'm 49, I'm able to get Ice Barrier and 4/5 Arcane Concentration, and...honestly, it still sucks because if you get unlucky with AC procs, you lose a LOT of mana. My kill speed was roughly the same as Frost, except I used a lot more mana and had the mob in my face attacking me the whole time, instead of being kept at range with slows and snares.

...Also, I'm finding that a LOT of mobs in Searing Gorge have very high Arcane resist, reducing my damage to 75 or 50%. :angry:

I did just one, ONE quest with this Arcane build, and I was drinking every 3 mobs due to not getting enough Arcane Concentration procs.

So, in theory, Arcane SEEMS like a better choice, but in practice, it's not really. The RNG of Arcane Concentration is far too much, and on top of that, you take way more damage than a Frost or Fire build.


Well for one, there's more aspects to the game than just grinding. Going through DM, BFD and SM as arcane and being able to spam AM long after all the other casters where oom, including the healers, is no small thing. And this is where I think arcane shines the most, in dungeons where you're not taking damage. It's value there extends well beyond the 30s IF your play style happens to be spending 50% or more of your time pugging dungeons or running with a dedicated group.

I had great results with AM while farming the Yetis in Alterac, but then again they were highly resistant to frost. But I also didn't have gear that I have now either. That I think is what puts frost in the lead post 30 more than anything, the availability of gear. As a tailor, it has frost damage gear starting in your 20s, fire damage in your 30s, and frost damage again in your 50s. There's nothing for arcane except generic spell damage, and outside of one or two notable pieces in your 30's, doesn't really begin to become prolific until your 40s with red mageweave and dreamweave. By then frost has the talents available to be stronger than Arcane. It's the gear that put's frost in the lead far more than the innate abilities of the magic schools.

You don't need 10% hit for leveling.

Vanilla spell hit caps at 99%, no matter how much hit you have, mobs will always have 1% chance to resist. 6% you get from Elemental Precision is enough to cap you at 99% for mobs 2 levels higher than you.


Again, that was in reference to raiding at end game. Although, I still think it comes down to personal play style. If you spend a lot of time running dungeons you'll be seeing mobs 3 and 4 levels above you regularly so it can still have some usefulness there.
 
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being able to spam AM long after all the other casters where oom, including the healers, is no small thing.


Except, as I've pointed out, Arcane Concentration is still subject to bad RNG. You can't spam Arcane Missiles forever, or even for that much longer than a "normal caster" because of bad RNG.

And if the other casters are "oom" then something is going wrong because they're not drinking for some reason. Even as high as 45-50 dungeons, trash pulls are never more than a minute or so, and if they're ooming in 1 minute, they're doing something horribly wrong.


Again, that was in reference to raiding at end game.
Nobody raids Arcane. Why? Because it has so much lower DPS, and your mana bar is at the mercy of a 10% proc chance talent.
 
Int + Stam all the way.
If youre AOE grinding as a mage, int+stam ensure your survival and allow you to do bigger pulls.
If youre doing single target nuking Fire>Frost because you get your higher rank spell 2(?) levels earlier.
But for single target nuking you need to take into consideration two things: time efficiency and chance of death.
Pulling an extra mob, random spells, pvp -> stam/int would benefit you from giving you increased survival.
I semi-afk grind when leveling so extra security goes a long way in reducing number of deaths I get.

Then you need to think of benefit of +spelldamage on all your spells vs reducing time between drink breaks. If you can take 8 mobs instead of 5 between drink break vs doing 10% more dmg -> whichever one is faster grinding is the way to go (IMO less drink breaks).
 
{...} Nobody raids Arcane. Why? Because it has so much lower DPS, and your mana bar is at the mercy of a 10% proc chance talent.

31/0/20 is one of the strongest mage specs for MC/BWL. However, it uses primarily frost spells. Arcane in vanilla is a support spec, no matter how many points you put into it. Nobody spams AM - it's used with Concentration procs or when fighting casters in pvp.

Also, Arcane Concentration is an incredibly strong talent and a must have for raiding mages. I personally dislike it for levelling though and would rather focus my points in either frost or fire for faster killing, although Arcane Subtlety is worth taking at some point.

As for the point in the OP: Int/Stam for AoEgrinding as those spells don't scale very well. Spellpower>everything for normal questing. Most spellpower gear contains at least one of Stam/Int anyway, so you'll still have a decent hp/mana pool.
 
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