Rogue PvE Subtlety

[Elicas]

So, tested Hemo tonight.

Unbuffed;

26% Crit
811 AP
407 Agi
170 Str

Buffed with;

DM:N, Songflower, Dragonslayer, Smoked Desert Dumplings, Mongoose, Winterfall Firewater, Juju Might, Juju Power, BoKings, Improved BoMight, Trueshot Aura

42% Crit
2011 AP
509 Agi
276 Str

Comparing my last BWL as Combat vs tonight BWL.

15/10 http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=17511
29/10 http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=18631

Now, baring in mind the fact we are nowhere near the rest of you guys on dps/hps etc. and our kills are far from 'clean' to say the least. We run with 4 tanks, and had 9 melee dps and 4 hunters present tonight. That's 17 people taking benefit from the debuff. While the whole group was alive, my Hemo debuff was totally cleared in less than 1.5 seconds, or one GCD. So adding (7*30)*1.5 or 315 damage to the raid every 1.5 seconds roughly. That is 210 raid dps. Now of course, this only really applies to clean kills where the whole or at least most of the melee team can stay alive.

For this 210 bonus dps, I lost 37 personal dps average for the night when compared to my previous combat parse.

The biggest issue for me to test this further is; too many of our melee team die on bosses to see if it could be a long term spec idea or not. If we could clean up our kills, I could see it being a huge benefit in a melee dense environment like ours.

This was the first time i've ever raided as Hemo, made many mistakes and I feel I could push it to similar numbers that I do as combat specced, while adding significantly to our raids damage.

 

[Zipzo]

So, tested Hemo tonight.

Unbuffed;

26% Crit
811 AP
407 Agi
170 Str

Buffed with;

DM:N, Songflower, Dragonslayer, Smoked Desert Dumplings, Mongoose, Winterfall Firewater, Juju Might, Juju Power, BoKings, Improved BoMight, Trueshot Aura

42% Crit
2011 AP
509 Agi
276 Str

Comparing my last BWL as Combat vs tonight BWL.

15/10 http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=17511
29/10 http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=18631

Now, baring in mind the fact we are nowhere near the rest of you guys on dps/hps etc. and our kills are far from 'clean' to say the least. We run with 4 tanks, and had 9 melee dps and 4 hunters present tonight. That's 17 people taking benefit from the debuff. While the whole group was alive, my Hemo debuff was totally cleared in less than 1.5 seconds, or one GCD. So adding (7*30)*1.5 or 315 damage to the raid every 1.5 seconds roughly. That is 210 raid dps. Now of course, this only really applies to clean kills where the whole or at least most of the melee team can stay alive.

For this 210 bonus dps, I lost 37 personal dps average for the night when compared to my previous combat parse.

The biggest issue for me to test this further is; too many of our melee team die on bosses to see if it could be a long term spec idea or not. If we could clean up our kills, I could see it being a huge benefit in a melee dense environment like ours.

This was the first time i've ever raided as Hemo, made many mistakes and I feel I could push it to similar numbers that I do as combat specced, while adding significantly to our raids damage.

Great experience and I'm glad you saw the same surprising numbers that I have a feeling this spec is capable of.

I have some news for you that may change things though.

Hemo doesn't just add 7 per charge, making the 7*30 figure an under-estimation. A very large one.

Firstly, The hemo debuff damage per charge does 2x damage on a critical strike. So if you went by the tool tip which says 7 per charge consumption, you're actually getting 14 per critical strike.

Secondly, and more notably, the damage added through the hemo debuff is affected by weapon damage modifiers. This includes opportunity and lethality. This means that depending on your rogues/warriors/hunters weapons when they use a strike that triggers a hemo charge, the hemo debuff damage added actually scales with all relevant talents that add % damage to their strikes. This means that 7*30 = Hemo contribution is a gross and extremely basic assumption of your contribution to your raids DPS, it's likely very much higher.

Most raiding rogues in at least full MC gear run anywhere from 35-40% crit, full BWL gear is probably maybe even higher, especially when buffed. Hunters like crit as well. Then you tack on all the other Rogues lethalities, opportunities, dual wield specializations (also with warriors), and impale (on warriors)...

Um yeah, I think there's basically no argument that hemo can be an extreme boon pending your raid comp and pending that actual hemo rogue can stay solid on raw dmg (hemo discounted). Just wait until we have servo arms, spamming hemo in bonescythe, it's going to be nasty.

And you can attribute battle shout, sunder armor and blessings to the warriors/paladins and subtract that damage from your hemo-rogue again.

What? These are buffs that all warriors and paladins have no matter what spec you are (with the exception of tailoring some pallies to not take kings), where as hemo needs to be specifically talented in a tree that nobody puts more than 5 points in to in this day and age, it's not even close to the same...?

And yet the same handful of players are in the top 10 on almost every single boss. It's not luck, and it's not random elements falling in their favour, and last but not least you can't hold a fast kill timer agianst someone. Maybe 2 boss encounters aren't alike, but the same boss encounter IS alike, and you can measure damage output very, very easily. Yes, it can be altered by going for the boss instead of adds, and there are probably 1 million tricks that I won't share with you, the point is that over 50 rogues do this and you don't, yet you continue about being competitive without actually playing the game.

I never said it was luck, ever, and I'm not holding a fast kill timer against anyone, but this is precisely why I'm not stringently comparing hemo dps in my raid versus combat swords dps in a completely different raid, the circumstances are just different (whether for better or for worse).

I'm not sure why you keep reiterating this "not playing" line, I've played WoW for over 10 years (like a lot of other people here I'm sure) and I'm very active on Kronos every day and a clear BWL weekly. I'm not saying that's some kind grand achievement, I'm just making sure you're in the right universe here because what you're saying here at the end of this paragraph doesn't make any sense in the context of this conversation.

I'm not just talking and blowing random theories out of my ass, I'm doing actual testing, raid log comparing and numbers crafting. It's sure as hell a lot more constructive than what you're doing (whinging).

 

[Elicas]

@Zip

I think his point is that if you aren't a top X Rogue on the boss kills lists for dps and your guild isn't top of the progression race your opinion doesn't matter and you don't count as 'playing the real end game'.

At least, that's what I got from it.

 

[Zipzo]

@Zip

I think his point is that if you aren't a top X Rogue on the boss kills lists for dps and your guild isn't top of the progression race your opinion doesn't matter and you don't count as 'playing the real end game'.

At least, that's what I got from it.

Not only does this completely discount that the damage meters can't account for added damage through Hemo, but it's completely dishonest because not every guild does a fight in the same way. There are many strategies on many bosses to "game" higher DPS and not everybody commits to those tricks, some people play safe strategies which result in lower raid DPS. To a lot of people it doesn't matter as long as the boss dies. If that's what he really meant, then he's full of it

The point is still being missed, that this wasn't begun as an effort "beat" combat or prove that Subtlety is gods gift to vanilla DPS, it was meant to discuss the potential of Subtlety, and to come in and say "Well this topic is pointless because combat is better" just means I can show you the door because it means the basic concept of the thread, explained clearly in the OP, has already flown over their head.

There's also no way of even telling who the "epic leet end game" people are yet until Aq40 but mostly Naxx hits, so it's all hot air from his direction as far as I'm concerned at the moment. By that time, most reputable research will tell you in Naxx gear that hemo rogues most CERTAINLY ARE competitive at that point anyhow.

If he cant post some actual numbers or you know, something useful for me to work with, this would be less of a flippant conversation.

 

[Rolexsweep]

There are many strategies on many bosses to "game" higher DPS and not everybody commits to those tricks, some people play safe strategies which result in lower raid DPS. To a lot of people it doesn't matter as long as the boss dies. If that's what he really meant, then he's full of it.

My point is that if you choose the safe strategy and hurt raid dps because if, moving in/out, clearing stacks at 3 instead of 6, let tanks spend 30 seconds on getting aggro, then being competitive with hemo is pointless in the first place because you are not maximizing anyway. There are no real DPS-races in the current content, so in theory everyone could do 300 dps each and everything would have gone just as smoothly.

So your full DPS potential with a strategy designed for this is 1,000.
Safe strategy reduces this potential to 500.

So if you push hemo to 420 dps with a 200 raid dps gain from the debuff, you "gain" 120 raid dps from hemo in a world where you don't use the best strategy to begin with.

I feel this is more a discussion of catering to the realities of different guilds. In that sense, hemo is a viable mid-range spec where kills more often than not don't go according to plan. However, on perfect beast-parses combat will outweigh the hemo spec all day every day.

 

[Rolexsweep]

There's also no way of even telling who the "epic leet end game" people are yet until Aq40 but mostly Naxx hits, so it's all hot air from his direction as far as I'm concerned at the moment. By that time, most reputable research will tell you in Naxx gear that hemo rogues most CERTAINLY ARE competitive at that point anyhow.

If he cant post some actual numbers or you know, something useful for me to work with, this would be less of a flippant conversation.

So because reputable research points you in the direction that hemo is certainly competitive in Naxx, there is no point in trying to be competitive now? I don't understand your reasoning. You want to discuss details of hemo and rogue potential, but when it comes to the actual boss fights it doesn't really matter because every guild has their own way of doing things?

The numbers I'm working with are the actual performances of the players on this server, including you and rogues I know from my guild. There is nothing to suggest AT THIS POINT that hemo, theoretically, has anything to do in a raid.

I would like to be corrected here, and see a log of a rogue breaking 1k dps on a single target fight, or atleast 700-800 on the drakes in BWL.

 

[reja]

Zipzo can you test hunter damage upon consuming a hemo charge? To our findings this seems to be not working.

 

[Cyrxisse]

Very interesting post Zipzo, I really enjoyed reading it. I always suspected vanilla sub rogue was underestimated. It's far less obvious and straight forward but your data and arguments make a really strong case. It's interesting that even faced with raw data some people can't get over the emotional stigma. A lot more people have been wrong about a lot more serious things for a far longer time so no, 10 years of nerd consensus is not a good argument against it. And neither is the fact that they changed sub dramatically over the expansions with shadowdance etc. Game designers don't only change stuff because it's objectively bad, they also do it if players can't figure out how to use a mechanic.

Also, this post solidifies my impression that kronos is a very solid emulation of vanilla mechanics. I just started leveling a rogue here and I think I'll stick around for a while. Cya all in in game!

 

[Brochette]

But... he didn't figure it out at all no? http://kronos-logs.com/character_info/character/Zipzo he doesnt appear in top50 of his class at all.
Dont get me wrong, i'd like to see a sub rogue perfoming well (at least correctly) in raid to improve the dps of every melees.
Are there anyone else who tried this and achieved more dps than a feral/hunter/retpal (more than 600dps)?

 

[petespri]

Bumping this.

Has anyone played a hemo/prep + 4/5 seal fate build yet? If so, how does it work?