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    TwinStar team

Rogue Rogue Current/Future BiS

sillywet

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Jul 11, 2015
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#1
Thanks Mods for the sticky!


This is a list compiled of the loot from all currently released content (Including world bosses) The talent builds used were the standard PvE builds. These were compiled factoring in the alliance buffs, however, I would assume it would be the same for Horde.
 
  
  



Current

Slot

[TD="align: center"]BIS[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Notes[/TD]

Head

[TD="align: center"]Bloodfang Hood[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]

Neck

[TD="align: center"]Prestor's Talisman of Connivery[/TD]

Shoulder

[TD="align: center"]Nightslayer Shoulderpads // Bloodfang (if 3 or 8 piece)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]T1>T2[/TD]

Back

[TD="align: center"]Puissant Cape[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]

Chest

[TD="align: center"]Bloodfang Chestpiece[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]

Wrist

[TD="align: center"]Bloodfang Bracers[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]

Hands

[TD="align: center"]ACLG / Doomhide Gauntlets // Bloodfang (if 3 or 8 piece)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]T1>T2[/TD]

Waist

[TD="align: center"]Bloodfang Belt[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]

Legs

[TD="align: center"]Bloodfang Pants[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]

Boots

[TD="align: center"]Boots of the Shadow Flame // Bloodfang (if 3 or 8 piece)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]T2>T1[/TD]

Ring 1

[TD="align: center"]Band Of Accuria[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]

Ring 2

[TD="align: center"]Master Dragonslayer's Ring[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]

Trinkets

[TD="align: center"]Drake Fang Talisman / Hand of Justice[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]**[/TD]

Ranged

[TD="align: center"]Striker's Mark[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]

MH

[TD="align: center"]Perdition's Blade // CTS/VK[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]***[/TD]

OH

[TD="align: center"]CHT/DFB // Warblade of the Hakkari[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]






Tier 1 gloves are much better than Tier 2. Bloodfang Gloves are great for PvP, and Bloodfang Boots are great for Druid tanks.

Daggers: DFB and CHT are practically the same. You would not notice the difference.


Swords: 8/8 t2 is the best for you.



** On fights where Earthstrike is on cooldown/not viable

*** VK and CTS are very close, VK is going to be better the worse your gear is. See page 2-3 for more info








AQ (Daggers)

BiSNotes

Slot

[TD="align: center"]

[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

[/TD]

 

[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]

Head

[TD="align: center"]Deathdealer's Helm[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]

Neck

[TD="align: center"]Prestor's Talisman of Connivery[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]

Shoulder

[TD="align: center"]Deathdealer's Spaulders[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]

Back

[TD="align: center"]Cloak of Concentrated Hatred[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]

Chest

[TD="align: center"]Bloodfang Chestpiece[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3-set[/TD]

Wrist

[TD="align: center"]Bloodfang Bracers[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3-set[/TD]

Hands

[TD="align: center"]Gloves of Enforcement[/TD]
[TD="align: center"] 1[/TD]

Waist

[TD="align: center"]Belt of Never-ending Agony[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]

Legs

[TD="align: center"]Bloodfang Chestpiece[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3-set[/TD]

Feet

[TD="align: center"]Deathdealer's Boots[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]

Rings

[TD="align: center"]Band of Accuria / Master Dragonslayer's Ring[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]

Trinkets (Start)

[TD="align: center"]Earthstrike / Badge of the Swamguard[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]

Trinkets (Swap)

[TD="align: center"]Drakefang Talisman / Hand of Justice[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]

Ranged

[TD="align: center"]Striker's Mark[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]

Main Hand

[TD="align: center"]Death's Sting[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]

Off Hand

[TD="align: center"]Blessed Qiraji Pugio[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]



1. BiS with Death's Sting. (+3 daggers) If you are using a different dagger as your mainhand, you can swap either ACLG, Mugger's Belt, or Distracting Dagger





training dummies now
 
Last edited:

Alaine

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Jun 19, 2015
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#4
Re: BWL BIS

As a sword rogue you wanna get 8/8 T2. The last Set Bonus is better then replacing the bad T2 items. Got this results by using the latest Spreadsheet from Vanilla (v2.0.5) i could find.
 

sillywet

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Jul 11, 2015
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#6
Re: BWL BIS

As a sword rogue you wanna get 8/8 T2. The last Set Bonus is better then replacing the bad T2 items. Got this results by using the latest Spreadsheet from Vanilla (v2.0.5) i could find.
Yes it looks like full t2 are better by about 4dps, with the buffs I use, thanks for pointing this out. I'll attach a foot note.
 
Joined
Sep 21, 2014
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6
#7
Re: BWL BIS

Highly dependant wether the proc rate is working as intended or not.

So untill we get more info on it, this is all speculation.

Ill take the 4 dps loss, for a more certain dps atm.
 

Alaine

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Jun 19, 2015
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#8
Re: BWL BIS

Highly dependant wether the proc rate is working as intended or not.

So untill we get more info on it, this is all speculation.

Ill take the 4 dps loss, for a more certain dps atm.
Well we have three Options how the proc can be wrong:

1. The proc is worse then blizzlike - You do less dmg with 8/8 then with the better items.

2. The Proc is worse then blizzlike - You do the same dmg with 8/8 then with the better items.

3. The Proc is better then blizzlike - You do more dmg with 8/8 then with the better items.

So 2 out of 3 are good for you and 1 is bad for you when you try to get 8/8. There is still the possibility that they get the proc right. In that case 8/8 will be better too.
 
Last edited:

Soyoen

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Sep 28, 2014
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7
#9
Re: BWL BIS

 

Slot

BIS

Notes

Head

Darkmantle

 

Neck

Prestor's Talisman of Connivery

Shoulder

Darkmantle

 

Back

Puissant Cape

 

Chest

Bloodfang Chestpiece

 

Wrist

Darkmantle

 

Hands

Darkmantle

T1 bis fully wbuffed.

Waist

Bloodfang Belt

 

Legs

Bloodfang Pants

 

Boots

Boots of the Shadowflame

Always shadow flame.

Ring 1

Band Of Accuria

 

Ring 2

Master Dragonslayer's Ring

 

Trinket 1

Drake Fang Talisman

 

Trinket 2

Hand of Justice

Maelstrom @ Chrom

MH

Perdition's Blade / Chromatically Tempered Sword

 

OH

ZG / Ravencrest's legacy | Dragonfang

@Unblizzlikekronos<3

Fixed it for you.
 
Last edited:

Alaine

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Jun 19, 2015
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#10
Re: BWL BIS

Fixed it for you.

No you did not.

Why would you equip Maelstrom @ chrom if you dont get lucky with the vulnerability its not worth it.
Vis'kag even with its proc is worse then CTS except if the proc is better then Blizzlike.
310 is max not 315. Do not know where you got 315 but it is 100% 310.
The two PvP items are better then T2 if you dont have full T2( as long as you do not loose the 3 piece bonus ). But for swords 8/8 is still BiS (If they dont get the proc wrong).
For Daggers the two PvP items bring about ~3 dps, so yeah they would be BiS.
 
Last edited:

Soyoen

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Sep 28, 2014
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#11
Re: BWL BIS

No you did not.

Why would you equip Maelstrom @ chrom if you dont get lucky with the vulnerability its not worth it.
Vis'kag even with its proc is worse then CTS except if the proc is better then Blizzlike.
310 is max not 315. Do not know where you got 315 but it is 100% 310.
The two PvP items are better then T2 if you dont have full T2( as long as you do not loose the 3 piece bonus ). But for swords 8/8 is still BiS (If they dont get the proc wrong).
For Daggers the two PvP items bring about ~3 dps, so yeah they would be BiS.
Sigh.
Please go ahead and spread misinformation somewhere else mate.

100% 315 below, unless Kronos decided to be a custom server of course:
http://wow.gamepedia.com/Talk:Weapon_skill
--Hermit 02:40, 1 August 2006 (EDT)

Update: Which they did, enjoy your artificial created advantages over NPCs.


Now the only thing which is not misinformation is regarding maelstrom, which is more based upon personal preference - do you feel lucky then please come join my casino for potential greatness, or remain at your seat for steady streams of mediocre.

T2 proc should account for 8-15dps.
http://forums.elitistjerks.com/topic/6721-combat-sword-vs-combat-daggers/


Good luck though.
// Soyo
 
Last edited:

Alaine

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Jun 19, 2015
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#12
Re: BWL BIS

Sigh.
Please go ahead and spread misinformation somewhere else mate.

100% 315 below, unless Kronos decided to be a custom server of course:
http://wow.gamepedia.com/Talk:Weapon_skill
--Hermit 02:40, 1 August 2006 (EDT)

Vis'kag is marginally better than CTS for a rogue as the ppm will be pushed closer to 2 rather than 1.74-1.78 (you'll find a decent post here: https://github.com/FeenixServerProject/Phoenix_1.12.1_Issue_tracker/issues/2494). As the PPM is pushed towards 2 for the rogue class, the dps gain from vis'kag in comparison to CTS will end on about 2,0227 dps in favour for vis'kag. In fact, at 1.78 vis'kag and cts are on the same level +/- 0.1dps.

Now the only thing which is not misinformation is regarding maelstrom, which is more based upon personal preference - do you feel lucky then please come join my casino for potential greatness, or remain at your seat for steady streams of mediocre.

Finally; Unless the T2 proc account for more than 35,65 dps (hint: it should not even if positively bugged, also: that's more than 7procs per minute) then the gear setup I provided is superior. You need to be out of your own mind if you actually believe 8/8 will ever be BIS, unless you have a spreadsheet that includes stylepoints.

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/topic/6721-combat-sword-vs-combat-daggers/
Question of 15dps from proc being high, in short: 8-15 dps from the proc.


Good luck though.
// Soyo
I tried your setup in the Spreadsheet and its less dps then using 8/8 and CTS + brutality.
The Sheet i use is the latest i could find. It is from Nov 2007, so one Month before 2.0 hit the Servers.
So if they dont got something totally wrong back then it should be the closest thing to get the right numbers for Kronos. If you dont belive me you can try it out yourself.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0gRAM-O8N64SFVZdUYwYkRfMHc/view?ths=true
 

Soyoen

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Sep 28, 2014
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#13
Re: BWL BIS

I tried your setup in the Spreadsheet and its less dps then using 8/8 and CTS + brutality.
The Sheet i use is the latest i could find. It is from Nov 2007, so one Month before 2.0 hit the Servers.
So if they dont got something totally wrong back then it should be the closest thing to get the right numbers for Kronos. If you dont belive me you can try it out yourself.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0gRAM-O8N64SFVZdUYwYkRfMHc/view?ths=true
Outdated by 12 years, aside from that it provides very poor simulations and was left incomplete. Take a closer look into the hidden tabs and numbers and you'll realize just how big of a mess it is. I can't argue that it's not easy to use, but it is far from being refined - granted the individuals working on it had an ever changing environment, whereas today you have "unlimited" time to refine your sheets.
 

Alaine

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Jun 19, 2015
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#14
Re: BWL BIS

Outdated by 12 years, aside from that it provides very poor simulations and was left incomplete. Take a closer look into the hidden tabs and numbers and you'll realize just how big of a mess it is. I can't argue that it's not easy to use, but it is far from being refined - granted the individuals working on it had an ever changing environment, whereas today you have "unlimited" time to refine your sheets.
So you have an better sheet which will give us the right numbers?
If yes feel free to share it.
 
Joined
May 22, 2015
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#17
Re: BWL BIS

I'll try to prove that wrong.


On previous page you guys mention 1.78 PPM for Vis'kag proc. Weapon speed is 2.6 so during one minute you can do 60 / 2.6 = 23 attacks. So in order for rate to be 1.78 PPM you need 1.78/23 = 0.077 = 7.7% proc chance.


Rogues can easily do over 50 strikes on target per minute but let's look at the worst case and limit it to 50. Let's not even count sword spec and hand of justice at all. Let's just make the false assumption that 5% dodge will cancel out all extra procs and all the attacks that count over 50. With 50 strikes, you get 50 * 0.077 = 3.85 expected number of procs per minute. Let's take worst case here as well and assume this number is just 3.


So 3 PPM results in 3 times 240 damage procs. Let's make yet another assumption that procs never crit. So we get total of 240 * 3 = 720 proc damage, not counting armor and dodge. Let's say 5% dodge reduces this to 720 * 0.95 = 684 damage. Assume that boss has Sunder Armor, Curse of Recklessness and Faerie Fire debuffs so its armor is 1246. That's around 18% damage reduction vs a lvl60 target for a lvl60 person. I don't know how this scales with raid boss level so let's just keep it 18%. So damage goes down to 684 * 0.82 = 561 damage. That gives us 561 / 60 = 9.35 dps from the Vis'kag damage proc.


Now let's look at what CTS brings to the table. It has 3.3 more weapon dps than Vis'kag, so that reduces proc dps advantage to 9.35 - 3.3 = 6.05 dps. It also has 14 agility and strength which gives 30 AP with blessing of kings. With 2.6 weapon speed you need 5 AP for 1 point of weapon damage so it adds 6 damage. 6 / 2.6 = 2.3 dps. So advantage of Vis'kag procs gets further reduced to 6.05 - 2.3 = 3.75 dps. It also increases OH dps too so assuming it's a bit faster than MH we get roughly 1.5 OH dps. So in the end Vis'kag proc gives advantage of 3.75 - 1.5 = 2.25 dps.


So what we have now is 2.25 dps in favor of Vis'kag while having made 3 assumptions that are very bad for Vis'kag.


CTS gives 15 agility with blessing of kings, so that gives roughly 0.5% crit chance. Let's again make an assumption that is bad for Vis'kag, that crit cap is not an issue. Every 1% of crit chance increases dps by 1% on average since 1% more of the attacks will deal 100% more damage than they should. So 0.5% crit chance from CTS will give a 0.5% dps increase.


So now it comes down to: How much should your dps be with CTS to make 0.5% dps increase greater than 2.25? 2.25 / 0.005 = 450 dps.


So making all these assumptions that are very bad for Vis'kag, you still need to do more than 450 dps to justify using CTS over Vis'kag. In reality, you will need to make way more dps to outweight the Vis'kag procs. And keep in mind that all we're talking about is statistical average assuming infinite fight length. In practice you will most likely have more procs than 3 per minute, making Vis'kag indeed far better than CTS unless you already do something like... 800 dps on average.

If I made wrong calculation somewhere or got some part of it wrong, please do correct me.
 

Alaine

New Member
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Jun 19, 2015
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#18
Re: BWL BIS

Hi,

the dmg from CTS also buffs your SS. The AP from CTS also buff SS and Evi.
Sadly i only had time to read over it fast once. So correct me if i am wrong.
 
Joined
May 22, 2015
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#19
Re: BWL BIS

Sinister strike doesn't matter since it's weapon damage + bonus that doesn't get increased (not a rogue player, am I wrong here?). So Sinister Strike is included in the MH weapon dps increase. About Eviscerate you are right, but I don't know how it scales with AP. Can anyone fill that in? You don't do many eviscerates per fight so that won't change things much anyway.
 

Lharts

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Nov 29, 2012
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417
#21
Re: BWL BIS

3,3dps, 28AP and roughly half a crit vs. 240 damage

factor in 28 AP (ignoring buffs like Kings) and you get 5,3dps more from CTS.
5,3 * 60 = 318 damage per minute
CTS stats give you 318 more damage per minute while Vis'Kag gives you 240. You can ignore higher proc rates due to SnD or SS since this also increases the damage bonus from CTS stats almost the same way.
Armor can also be ignored since its both physical damage.

Vis'Kag would surpass CTS if it had ~1,5PPM.


55,2 * 2,6 = 143,5 Vis'Kag
60,5 * 2,6 = 157,2 CTS

Each hit, wether autoswing or SS, CTS deals about 14 more damage.

dps including stats:
CTS 60,5 -> stats also increases offhand and abilities
Vis'Kag 59,2 (240/60=4dps)


idk, I could do this math one way or another and CTS always comes out winning.


tl;dr
just wanted to calculated it back and forth to see if I missed something.
CTS > Vis'Kag if Vis'Kag has a PPM of 1. If it has 1,5 or even 2 then Vis'Kag is better.

NOTE: Armor, crit, dodge etc can all be ignore since both proc and dps advantage are physical effects and thus gain or suffer in the same way from those. Hit or weapon skill will effect both differently, but the difference is so minimal that I simply ignored it. AP gain for offhand and abilities kind of equalizes this again anyways...

And before you all get a little dumber reading Soyoen post, cap for weapon skill is 310.

50 points for Gryffin... Alaine.
 
Last edited:

bl4ckc0d3r

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May 22, 2015
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481
#22
Re: BWL BIS

And before you all get a little dumber reading Soyoen post, cap for weapon skill is 310.
Not according to mangos zero source code. They follow the weird formula from wowwiki. I suppose we need a dev to tell us if they changed that implementation here on Kronos or not. But for now, since we have no information, let's assume it's 309.

And according to the testing i did with 1000 main hand white hits, the PPM of Vis'kag was over 1.5 ppm. I don't know where you people randomly pull your numbers from.
 

bl4ckc0d3r

Authorized
Joined
May 22, 2015
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481
#25
Re: BWL BIS

The issue report you posted indicates that it got "fixed" to the wowwiki formula that says 309 is the cap, and then it got reopened after you said it should be 310. So from this, we can conclude that on kronos it's 309.
 
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