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    TwinStar team

Rogue Rogue Current/Future BiS

Lharts

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Nov 29, 2012
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#26
Re: BWL BIS

http://forum.twinstar.cz/showthread.php/57011-Big-TheoryCrafting-Thread?highlight=glancing

I would not automatically assume that. The report was reopened during beta. At that time Chero was more listening to reports in IRC then bugtracker. Might be its changed, might be its not. Even then it doesn't matter, cap is 310, period. I wouldn't base my math on stuff that is subject to change or plain wrong.

Enought OT though. just wanted to make sure noones spreading false information here.
 

bl4ckc0d3r

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May 22, 2015
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#27
Re: BWL BIS

Where do I even begin lol

You say you wouldn't assume that it's 309 as the issue report indicates, but you DO assume that it got silently fixed to what you said it should be without the issue status being changed. After that you say it may be both things and immediately you say that it's 310 and no further discussion should be done on the subject. And then you call the 309 cap thing "plain wrong" when you have no good evidence that it is in fact wrong (as in, implemented differently on Kronos), but rather "a feeling".

if you look very very closely, you might notice that your arguments are flawed.

Since we started talking about weapon skill cap and glancing blows here I will write the following to make things clear for readers of this thread.

I did some testing in game to see which glancing blow formula Kronos uses and I got the following with my paladin:

305 weapon skill
########################### Ermean vs Teremus
weapon skill: 305 (glancings: 80% - 90%)
weapon: 5-8 damage (2h sword)


258 crit
119 glancing (with vengeance; should be 103 without it)
105 glancing
110 glancing
114 glancing
114 glancing
260 crit
130 hit
111 glancing
128 hit
129 hit
106 glancing
115 glancing
129 hit
128 hit
106 glancing
103 glancing
260 crit
149 hit (with vengeance; should be 129 without it)
115 glancing
260 crit
129 hit
110 glancing
112 glancing
115 glancing
109 glancing
128 hit
260 crit
130 hit
130 hit
128 hit
103 glancing


White Hits: 128-130
Glancings: 103-115 (80% - 88%)
With dhorn's formula they should be 85%

303 weapon skill
########################### Ermean vs Teremus
weapon skill: 303 (glancings: 70%-84%)
weapon: 2-4 damage (1h sword)


286 crit
326 crit (with vengeance)
164 hit (with vengeance)
286 crit
284 crit
284 crit
284 crit
143 hit
143 hit
143 hit
284 crit
142 hit
286 crit
284 crit


107 glancing
106 glancing
104 glancing
118 glancing
107 glancing
102 glancing
105 glancing
107 glancing
104 glancing
101 glancing
108 glancing
114 glancing
109 glancing


White Hits: 142-143
Glancings: 101-118 (71% - 82%)
With dhorn's formula they should be 79%

These test results support the WowWiki formula and 309 skill cap.

However, I also did a much smaller test with a warrior and I got the following:
########################### Nedstark vs Anachronos
Weapon skill: 305
weapon: 2-4 damage (1h sword)
93 glancing
93 hit
93 hit
92 hit
92 hit
92 hit
92 glancing

Which is worrying since it shows that with 305 weapon skill Ned's glancing blows did 100% of their damage (no, he did not have edgemaster's equipped). Are glancing blows bugged for warriors? I will do some more testing, with a rogue as well, to get more results and I will keep you posted.

Tried again with Nedstark vs Teremus with around 30 hits with 2-4 damage sword (305 skill). His damage was 64-72 glancing and 80-81 normal which places glancing blows in 80%-88% range, which agrees with 80%-90% range if we follow the 309 skill cap formula. I have no idea why I got same for glancing and white hit vs Anachronos (he also had less armor than Teremus, 4044 vs 4641, maybe he's not a lvl63 raid boss - if such a thing is possible for a ?? boss).

Anyway, to conclude: 309 is weapon skill cap based on my many experiments.
 
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bl4ckc0d3r

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May 22, 2015
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#30
Re: BWL BIS

I did 1000 main hand hits with Vis'kag in a duel (attacking from behind so only normal hit and crit were on the hit table against the target) and got 67 Fatal Wound procs. There were no attack speed modifiers such as flurry. 1000 attacks * 2.6 weapon speed = 2600 seconds spent attacking = 43.33333 minutes spent attacking.

67 Fatal Wound procs divided by 1000 attacks = 0.067 * 100 = 6.7% chance for Vis'kag to proc Fatal Wound.
67 Fatal Wound procs from Vis'kag divided by 43.33333 minutes = 1.54 procs per minute.

This is based on only the auto attack.

As a rogue, using tea and your cooldowns during a one minute fight (not even counting sword procs and hand of justice) you can do more than 50 attacks per minute. So you get practical proc per minute rate to be more than 50 * 0.067 = 3.35 PPM.

This is all based on my experiment with just one thousand hits. I suppose doing 10 000 hits would give even more accurate estimate of the proc rate but I don't really want to spend 7 hours auto attacking and healing myself in a duel. 1000 hits should provide a very good estimate.
 
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Elicas

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Jul 28, 2015
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#31
Re: BWL BIS

Thanks for the details Ermean. I'd love to test it out myself, but the damn thing doesn't want to drop for my guild :sad:
 

sillywet

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Jul 11, 2015
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#32
Re: BWL BIS

Thank you Ermean for doing that, but without the misses/dodges that will occur when fighting a boss, the experiment is equivalent to having a 100% hit chance. This will still provide us a good ceiling to use though.



Without Adrenaline rush, you can do 15 Sinister strikes per minute.
With adrenaline rush, you can do 30 per minute, every 5 minutes,
avg- 18 SS per minute, (w/ dodge 16.55)

Viskag with no speed modifiers or swing resets attacks 23 times per minute.

SaD+BF= 36% speed (1.2*30), for the 15 seconds BF is up, which is equal to 30.75% attack speed over 2 minutes.

2 minutes after attacking with BF your avg attack speed is , (36+(30*7)) = 246
246/8 = 30.75



2.6 * .6925 = 1.8 attack speed

33 white attacks + 7% chance to hit again after successful = 35 main hand hits on average, with a 100% hit rate, per minute. But when you factor in the dodge chance 8% of the 33 white attacks will not connect, so the number is closer to 30 + 7% chance to hit again = 32.1


32.1+16.5 (yellow hits) = 48.6 Main hand hits per minute (Once again, this is with white hit cap (27%))

48.6 * .067 = 3.25 procs per minute, also assuming that glancing blows and extra attacks can cause procs

3.25 * 240 = 780
780/60 = 13dps from proc (assuming it cannot crit, and always hits for 240)



I'll use my gear as an example, I would have about a 13% hit chance,

So

100% - 27% miss - 8% dodge + 13% hit chance = 78% of my white hits will connect


33 * .78 = 25.74

25.74 * 1.07 = 27.54 connected white hits

27.54 + 16.5 = 44.04
44.04 * .067 = 2.95 Procs per minute if glancing blows and extra attacks cause procs.

2.95 * 240 = 708
708/60 = 11.8 dps from proc (assuming it cannot crit, and always hits for 240)


factor in 28 AP (ignoring buffs like Kings) and you get 5,3dps more from CTS.
5,3 * 60 = 318 damage per minute

Vis'Kag:

11.8 (Proc Damage) + 55.2 (Weapon Damage) = 67 dps

CTS:

58.5 (Weapon Damage) + 5.3 (Stats) = 63.8 dps


From this it looks like Vis'Kag is better, but I am assuming that the damage from SS does not scale from the stats from CTS.

However, if my offhand dps is increased by more than 3.2dps from the stats of CTS, CTS is better for me.


Also, I don't know if anyone has factored into the equation, the rogue talent lethality, (5/5 30% more damage from crits) and aggression (6% more damage from SS), and murder (2% more damage to x,y,z) all of which would benefit from CTS's stats and better damage range and are parts of the standard PvE Build.
 
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bl4ckc0d3r

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May 22, 2015
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#33
Re: BWL BIS

Bosses have 5.6% base chance to dodge your attacks, not 8%. It gets reduced by your weapon skill so assuming you are a human rogue with CTS/Vis'kag and have 310 weapon skill, that dodge chance goes down to 5.2%.

Thank you Ermean for doing that, but without the misses/dodges that will occur when fighting a boss, the experiment is equivalent to having a 100% hit chance.
Yes but the point was to get correct proc chance (or well, a good estimate based on statistical average) which is what really matters. Then you just calculate number of hits you can do and multiply with proc chance to get PPM (as I see you did).

(assuming it cannot crit, and always hits for 240)
It gets reduced by armor. It can crit and does so with melee crit chance since it counts as physical attack. It should be able to cause other procs (like Crusader and poisons).

Bottom line is that at SOME POINT CTS will give more dps because of its pure crit contribution due to agility. But since crit cap is also an issue, and the fact that you need relative dps increase from crit (compared to your current dps without adding the CTS agi) to be bigger than the proc dps bonus, you need very high dps to make CTS work better.
 

sillywet

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Jul 11, 2015
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#34
Re: BWL BIS

Bosses have 5.6% base chance to dodge your attacks, not 8%. It gets reduced by your weapon skill so assuming you are a human rogue with CTS/Vis'kag and have 310 weapon skill, that dodge chance goes down to 5.2%.
I'll update those numbers tomorrow, thanks


Yes but the point was to get correct proc chance (or well, a good estimate based on statistical average) which is what really matters. Then you just calculate number of hits you can do and multiply with proc chance to get PPM (as I see you did).
My apologies if I sounded haughty
 

Lharts

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Nov 29, 2012
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#35
Re: BWL BIS

27.54 + 16.5 = 44.04
44.04 * .067 = 2.95 Procs per minute if glancing blows and extra attacks cause procs.

2.95 * 240 = 708
708/60 = 11.8 dps from proc (assuming it cannot crit, and always hits for 240)


Vis'Kag:

11.8 (Proc Damage) + 55.2 (Weapon Damage) = 67 dps

CTS:

58.5 (Weapon Damage) + 5.3 (Stats) = 63.8 dps
I highligthed the mistakes you made.

The dps gain from CTS stats is 28AP and 0,5~ crit. This is about 2dps and 0,5%~ crit. The 5,3 that I wrote was the total DPS advantage that CTS has over Vis'Kag.
(58,5 + 2) - 55,2 = 5,3. That means CTS does 5,3 damage more per second then Vis'Kag.

Now to the second mistake that I tried to elaborate earlier. You factor in weapon speed in favor for Vis'Kag, but this is wrong. Abilities that perform instant attacks or lower your swing timer will also benefit CTS in the same way. This is how I would calculated it. Assume that Vis'Kag has 1,5 PPM (as Ermeans tests seem to indicate).

240 * 1,5 PPM / 60 = 6

CTS = 58,5 + 2 = 60,5 dps
Vis'Kag = 61,4 dps

Keep in mind that CTS also increases your offhand damage and abilities like Evi or rupture. Also don't forget that crit.
61,4 - 60,5 = 0,9 -> Vis'Kag is roughly 1 dps more then CTS
The 0,5% additional crit will make CTS deal more damage though.




To show you what I mean when I say that melee speed increasing abilities or instant attacks a virtually the same for both weapons I will simply take two simple numbers.
Regularly my weapon would have 1 PPM, but with SnD and SS I get it up to 2 PPM.
Each proc deals 100 dmg. This means with SnD and SS I get 2 procs per minute, so 200 damage more.

I doubles my proc rate, but I also doubled my swings.
Another weapon deals 10 damage more per hit. Both weapons hit 10 times per minute. So, over the course of 1 minute this weapon will deal 10 * 10 = 100 more damage then the other.
Factor in the proc and both deal the same amount.

With double the swings you end up with the same result. Instead of 1 time the proc weapon procs 2 times giving you 200 extra damage. On the other hand the regular weapon with more dps hits 20 time for 10 dmg more also giving you 200 extra damage.

(SS and weapon speed normalization will change this SLIGHTLY)
 

Elicas

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Jul 28, 2015
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#36
Re: BWL BIS

So, to sum it up in easy English without the math.

At this stage of gearing when we don't have full BiS, Vis'kag will perform better. As we proceed towards full BiS for T2 content, CTS will become better.

That's what I gleaned from the above posts, at any rate.
 

sillywet

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#37
Re: BWL BIS

So, to sum it up in easy English without the math.

At this stage of gearing when we don't have full BiS, Vis'kag will perform better. As we proceed towards full BiS for T2 content, CTS will become better.

That's what I gleaned from the above posts, at any rate.
yus
 

sillywet

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#39
Re: BWL BIS

Thanks Hotslice,

So it looks like on a sword rogue, over a 5 minute duration, (SnD, Adrenaline Rush, Blade Flurry)
The PPM of VK is at least 2.916 (Not factoring in Thistle Tea, Ruthlessness, or Relentless Strikes)







If anyone would like to math it,

Vis'Kag -> 2.8 speed weapon -> .06 chance to proc on hit
Sword Spec + HoJ -> 7% chance to attack again on hit

Adrenaline Rush - Increases Energy Regeneration rate by 100% for 15 seconds. 5min CD. (40 Energy every 2 seconds, from 20 Energy every 2 seconds)

Blade Flurry - Increases attack speed by 20% and your attacks hit 1 nearby opponent for 15 seconds, costs 25 Energy. 2min CD. (With Slice and Dice up, your attack speed is only increased to 36%)

Thistle Tea - Instant 100 Energy (5min CD)

Ruthlessness 3/3 - Finishing moves have a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target

Relentless Strikes - Finishing moves have a 20% chance, per combo point, to restore 25 Energy

The optimal cycle would be



(Opener) Sinister Strike -> Slice and Dice (13.05 second duration)

I. Going into rotation at 35 Energy, with a 20% chance to be at 60 energy, and a 60% chance with gaining 1 combo point from Relentless Strikes.


Sinister Strike x 3 (120 Energy)
3 point Slice and Dice (25 Energy, 60% chance to cost 0 Energy) (21.45 second duration)
Sinister Strike x 5 (200 Energy, but a 20% chance to only need 4 more combo points)
5 point Slice and Dice (0 Energy) (30.45 second duration)
Sinister Strike x 5 (200 Energy, but a 20% chance to only need 4 more combo points)
5 point Eviscerate (10 Energy, with a 20% chance to add a combo point after)

Repeat.

Use Thistle Tea every 5 minutes when at 0 Energy. Adrenaline rush every 5 minutes. Blade Flurry every 2 minutes. Use SnD only when only 1 second away from it expiring. Never let energy cap etc.
 
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Vyp

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Jun 22, 2015
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#40
Re: BWL BIS

bis this content:

Rank 10 helm
Prestor's Talisman of Connivery
Rank 10 shoulders
Puissant Cape
Bloodfang Chestpiece
Bloodfang Bracers
Doomhide Gauntlets
Bloodfang Belt
Rank 12 pants
Boots of the Shadow Flame
Band Of Accuria
Master Dragonslayer's Ring
Drake Fang Talisman
Earthstrike / Vanish swap for Hand of Justice
CTS
Warblade of the hakkari
 

sushibarf

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Oct 20, 2014
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#41
Re: BWL BIS

bis this content:

Rank 10 helm
Prestor's Talisman of Connivery
Rank 10 shoulders
Puissant Cape
Bloodfang Chestpiece
Bloodfang Bracers
Doomhide Gauntlets
Bloodfang Belt
Rank 12 pants
Boots of the Shadow Flame
Band Of Accuria
Master Dragonslayer's Ring
Drake Fang Talisman
Earthstrike / Vanish swap for Hand of Justice
CTS
Warblade of the hakkari
Humans only.
 

Peasemold

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Apr 12, 2015
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#42
Re: BWL BIS

Replace Warblade with Maladath for non humans.

If you don't want to drag your balls through razor wire you can also use T2 helm and legs with T1 shoulders.
 

mandala

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Jul 7, 2016
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#44
Can we get a list that includes darkmantle? i see synced rogues using the 4 piece all of the time. can't seem to find any solid info/stats on the internet.
 

ziltoid89

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#45
Anyone have the math down for 8/8 T2 vs 5/5 2.5 + Gloves of Enforcement/Qiraji Execution Bracers/Belt of Never-ending Agony? I've been hearing T2 outperforms it on this server due to the proc rate.
 
Joined
Mar 10, 2016
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#46
Anyone have the math down for 8/8 T2 vs 5/5 2.5 + Gloves of Enforcement/Qiraji Execution Bracers/Belt of Never-ending Agony? I've been hearing T2 outperforms it on this server due to the proc rate.
I'm curious on this and the previous darkmantle question especially for dagger rogues where evis dmg is irrelevant.
 
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