Paladin Seal of Command DPS

[Whitewolf28]

I found this while looking for comparisons between SotC and SoC.

http://blue.cardplace.com/cache/wow-paladin/820894.htm

I found it extremely useful and I thought it would be good to share.

- - - Updated - - -

Which two-hand weapon is better for your paladin? The answer is not always easy when you take Seal of Command (SoC) into account.

Many elements have an impact on SoC dps : Weapon speed (the slower, the better), weapon dps (the higher, the better), weapon special attributes (Agi, str, attack power, %crit), total attack power, total %crit and spellpower.

So I decided to calculate SoC dps for every 2h weapons with over 50 dps usable by paladins (Maces, Swords, Axes, Polearms).

The calculations were made for a paladin with the following stats :

800 attack power
15% chance to crit
140 spellpower (Judgement of the Crusader)
+stats (crit%, agi, str, attack, spellpower) on the weapons are included. (procs are not)
** means the weapon has an uncalculated proc or effect that can potentially increases SoC dps.

Here are the results :

Rank, Name SoC DPS

1. Grand Marshal's Claymore 54.5

2. Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros 53.1

3. Ashkandi, Greatsword 52.5

4. Barb of the Sand Reaver (new) 51.8

4. Zin'rokh, Destroyer of Worlds 50.0

5. The Unstoppable Force 48.8

6. Hammer of Ji'zhi 48.5

7. Herald of Woe 47.8

8. Spinal Reaper 47.6

9. Bonereaver's Edge** 47.6

10. Drake Talon Cleaver 47.4

11. Gri'lek's Carver** 47.1

12. Crystal Spiked Maul 46.9

13. Draconic Maul 46.8

14. Sulfuron Hammer 46.7

15. The Untamed Blade** 45.9

16. Arcanite Reaper 45.9

17. Obsidian Edged Blade** 45.6

18. Hammer of the Titans** 45.1

19. Stonecutting Glaive 44.1

20. Earthshaker 44.1

21. Halberd of Smiting 44.1

22. Malown's Slam** 43.7

23. Draconic Avenger 43.3

24. Ice Barbed Spear 43.3

25. Darkstone Claymore 43.2

26. Dreadforge Retaliator 43.2

27. Jeklik's Crusher 43.2

28. Pitchfork of Madness** 42.7

29. Twig of the World Tree 42.6

30. Nightfall 42.0

31. Blackhand Doomsaw 41.3

32. Peacemaker 40.7

33. Tigule's Harpoon** 40.6

34. Warblade of Caer Darrow 40.2

35. Kang the Decapitator 40.1

36. Gravestone War Axe 39.9

37. Barbarous Blade 39.7

38. Fist of Omokk 39.7

39. Seeping Willow** 39.2

40. Frightskull Shaft 39.1

41. Typhoon 38.7

42. Shadowstrike 38.7

43. Thunderstrike 38.7

44. Ta'Kierthan Songblade 38.6

45. Finkle's Lava Dredger 39.7

46. Unyielding Maul 37.8

47. Bonecrusher 37.5

48. Malicious Axe 37.3

49. Shimmering Plat Warhammer 37.1

50. Zulian Stone Axe 36.3

51. Arcanite Champion** 36.0

52. Treant's Bane 35.7

53. Runeblade of Baron Rivendare 35.4

54. Monstrous Glaive 34.8

55. Chillpike 33.5

56. Doombringer 33.3

57. Hammer of the Grand Crusader 32.9

58. Destiny** 31.8

59. Sul'thraze the Lasher 31.4

60. Blackblade of Shahram 29.9

61. Blackfury 29.6

62. Relentless Scythe 29.2

63. Demonshear 28.7

64. Blade of Hanna 28.3

65. Brain Hacker 27.2

66. The Needler 27.2

67. Barovian Family Sword 26.3



.

Calculations were also made with higher or lower crit%/attack power but the results (the weapons hierarchy) were almost identical so I decided not to post them.

There's a similar post for 1h weapons that also compares SoC dps with SoR dps and it can be found here : https://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-paladin&t=771744&p=1&tmp=1#post771744

And for those who are wondering how SoC dps calculations are made, here's the formula :

Formula to calculate SoC dps :

((Damage range ((weapon dps + attack power dps) * weapon attack speed) * 0.70 * 7 ppm ) / 60 seconds) * 1+crit%

Here's the exemple of The Unstoppable Force :

Weapon dps : 61.4
Attack power dps (Assuming the paladin has 800ap) : (800+38)/14 : 59.86
Weapon attack speed : 3.8
Crit% (assuming the paladin has 15% crit) : 15% + 2% : 17%
Spellpower : 140 (Judgement of the crusader)

((((61.4+59.86)*3.8) * 0.70 * 7) / 60)*1.17

=44.02

+Calculation of +spellpower SoC dps :

=((Spellpower*0.29)*7)/60

=((140*0.29)*7)/60

=4.74

final results

=44.02+4.74

=48.76

Edit : I will add, like suggested by McHammar, a list that also included physical damage (with 25% damage reduction from armor). But keep in mind that this isn't an exact hierachy of the best weapons. For that, I'd need to calculate procs (And I can't do that, even if I wanted to!).
To be fair, I'd also need to calculate physical dps with different stats setup and/or physical damage reduction. (again, I won't do that, it would be endless). Another thing I did not consider is the effect of vengeance, I'm trying to figure out a way to calculate it and If I find something worth posting, I'll keep you updated.

- - - Updated - - -

But even in its current form, the list gives a pretty good idea of the best paladin weapons for SoC. The calculations were made for a paladin with the following stats :

800 attack power
15% chance to crit
140 spellpower (Judgement of the Crusader)
+stats (crit%, agi, str, attack, spellpower) on the weapons are included. (procs are not)
25% damage reduction from armor
* means the weapon has an uncalculated proc or effet that can potentially increase weapon total dps
** means the weapon has an uncalculated proc or effect that can potentially increases SoC dps.


1. Ashkandi, Greatsword 52.5 125.2 177.7

2. Grand Marshal's Claymore 54.5 120.3 174.8

3. Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros* 53.1 120.1 173.2

4. Barb of the Sand Reaver 51.8 116.9 168.8

5. Herald of Woe 47.8 116.4 164.2

6. Spinal Reaper 47.6 115.8 163.4

7. Bonereaver's Edge** 47.6 115.7 163.3

8. Drake Talon Cleaver* 47.4 115.3 162.7

9. Hammer of Ji'zhi 48.5 112.1 160.6

10. Zin'rokh, Destroyer of Worlds 50.0 109.4 159.5

11. The Untamed Blade** 45.9 111.3 157.3

12. Draconic Maul 46.8 110.4 157.2

13. Obsidian Edged Blade** 45.6 110.3 155.8

14. The Unstoppable Force 48.8 106.4 155.2

15. Draconic Avenger 43.3 110.6 153.9

16. Sulfuron Hammer* 46.7 104.1 150.8

17. Nightfall 42.0 107.1 149.1

18. Fist of Cenarius 45.5 103.3 148.7

19. Earthshaker 44.1 103.3 147.4

20. Halberd of Smiting* 44.1 103.3 147.4

21. Gri'lek's Carver** 47.1 99.7 146.8

22. Crystal Spiked Maul 46.9 99.4 146.3

23. Typhoon 38.7 107.5 146.2

24. Finkle's Lava Dredger 39.2 109.0 148.2

25. Arcanite Reaper 45.9 99.5 145.4

26. Hammer of the Titans** 45.1 97.5 142.6

27. Pitchfork of Madness** 42.7 99.7 142.4

28. Stonecutting Glaive 44.1 97.7 141.8

29. Ice Barbed Spear 43.3 98.3 141.5

30. Darkstone Claymore 43.2 98.2 141.5

31. Jeklik's Crusher* 43.2 98.0 141.2

32. Treant's Bane 35.7 105.4 141.1

33. Tigule's Harpoon** 40.6 99.7 140.3

34. Barbarous Blade 39.7 100.3 140.0

35. Zulian Stone Axe 36.3 103.4 139.7

36. Shadowstrike* 38.7 100.5 139.2

37. Thunderstrike* 38.7 100.5 139.2

38. Warblade of Caer Darrow 40.2 98.8 139.0

39. Dreadforge Retaliator 43.2 95.5 138.7

40. Blackfury 29.6 108.5 138.1

41. Malown's Slam** 43.7 94.2 137.9

42. Bonecrusher 37.5 100.2 137.7

43. Peacemaker 40.7 97.0 137.7

44. Blackhand Doomsaw* 41.3 95.9 137.1

45. Fist of Omokk 39.7 97.2 136.9

46. Twig of the World Tree 42.6 93.9 136.4

47. Runeblade of Baron Rivendare 35.4 100.6 136.0

48. Gravestone War Axe* 39.9 95.1 135.0

49. Seeping Willow** 39.2 95.8 134.9

50. Malicious Axe 37.3 96.5 133.8

51. Shimmering Plat Warhammer* 37.1 95.8 132.8

52. Unyielding Maul 37.8 95.0 132.8

53. Ta'Kierthan Songblade 38.6 94.2 132.8

54. Frightskull Shaft* 39.1 92.8 131.8

55. Arcanite Champion** 36.0 95.7 131.7

56. Blade of Hanna 28.3 103.1 131.4

57. Blackblade of Shahram* 29.9 100.4 130.3

58. Kang the Decapitator 40.1 90.2 130.3

59. Monstrous Glaive 34.8 95.1 129.8

60. Hammer of the Grand Crusader 32.9 95.8 128.7

61. Chillpike* 33.5 94.4 127.9

62. Destiny** 31.8 95.7 127.5

63. Relentless Scythe 29.2 97.8 127.0

64. Doombringer* 33.3 93.6 126.9

65. Sul'thraze the Lasher* 31.4 94.2 125.6

66. Brain Hacker* 27.2 98.2 125.4

67. Demonshear* 28.7 95.8 124.5

68. The Needler* 27.2 93.6 120.8

69. Barovian Family Sword* 26.3 94.2 120.5

 

[Psojed]

I'm not sure about the usefulness of the list.
The only time you wonder about your DPS is when you're DPSing in a raid. The list doesn't take into account any procs of the weapons, which are beneficial to the raid. For example, using Nightfall with a default raid setup would add so much more DPS to a 40-man raid that it would overtake every other weapon available.
It does not account for raid de/buffs (Sunder?), for paladin-specific talents (Vengeance!), racials (+5 to 2-handed maces), assumes 100% hit chance (impossible).

For PvP, you want burst damage, so you want SoC proc as often as possible and proc the highest possible hits and you don't care about its DPS.

But mainly, there are mistakes, for example

Many elements have an impact on SoC dps : Weapon speed (the slower, the better), weapon dps (the higher, the better), weapon special attributes (Agi, str, attack power, %crit), total attack power, total %crit and spellpower.

Weapon DPS has no impact on SoC DPS whatsoever. An example of that is TuF which is ranked 5th in SoC dps, but it's weapon DPS is much lower than Herald of Woe for example, which is ranked 7th in SoC dps.

A different example using his "formula":
Crul'shorukh, Edge of Chaos, BWL epic, one-handed 2.3 speed
((((62.8+59,71)*2.3)* 0.70 * 7) / 60)*1.15 = 26,46

Corruption, level 53 blue, two-handed 3.0 speed
((((49.7+61,42)*3.0)* 0.70 * 7) / 60)*1.15 = 31,30

You can see that weapon speed matters, weapon DPS does not.

The main issue is that his formula is nonsense:

Formula to calculate SoC dps :

((Damage range ((weapon dps + attack power dps) * weapon attack speed) * 0.70 * 7 ppm ) / 60 seconds) * 1+crit%

You take weapon dps + AP dps, multiply by speed to get avg. damage per hit, then multiply by 0.7 to gain avg. SoC damage, then you multiply it by 7 procs per minute and divide by 60, but that would mean that every single weapon has the same proc rate. Which is not true.

Same issue here:

+Calculation of +spellpower SoC dps :

=((Spellpower*0.29)*7)/60

You take spell damage added to a single proc, then you multiply it by 7 procs per minute and divide by 60, but that would mean that every single weapon has the same proc rate. Which is again not true.
Also the formula only works for +Holy damage, but for Spell Damage from gear, you have to use (Spellpower *0.20).

 

[Whitewolf28]

I'm not sure about the usefulness of the list. The only time you wonder about your DPS is when you're DPSing in a raid. The list doesn't take into account any procs of the weapons, which are beneficial to the raid. For example, using Nightfall with a default raid setup would add so much more DPS to a 40-man raid that it would overtake every other weapon available. It does not account for raid de/buffs (Sunder?), for paladin-specific talents (Vengeance!), racials (+5 to 2-handed maces), assumes 100% hit chance (impossible).

Drahmin clearly states the parameters of the lists, and it would be unreasonable to list all the different variables without a spreadsheet. The list is not about the utility of weapons.

For PvP, you want burst damage, so you want SoC proc as often as possible and proc the highest possible hits and you don't care about its DPS. But mainly, there are mistakes, for example Weapon DPS has no impact on SoC DPS whatsoever. An example of that is TuF which is ranked 5th in SoC dps, but it's weapon DPS is much lower than Herald of Woe for example, which is ranked 7th in SoC dps. A different example using his "formula": Crul'shorukh, Edge of Chaos, BWL epic, one-handed 2.3 speed ((((62.8+59,71)*2.3)* 0.70 * 7) / 60)*1.15 = 26,46 Corruption, level 53 blue, two-handed 3.0 speed ((((49.7+61,42)*3.0)* 0.70 * 7) / 60)*1.15 = 31,30 You can see that weapon speed matters, weapon DPS does not.

Drahmin clearly states first that "weapon speed (the slower, the better)." He then mentions weapon dps as when you have a slower weapon with a higher dps you end up with the better weapon to use. He also mentions other factors that need to be taken into account.

The main issue is that his formula is nonsense: You take weapon dps + AP dps, multiply by speed to get avg. damage per hit, then multiply by 0.7 to gain avg. SoC damage, then you multiply it by 7 procs per minute and divide by 60, but that would mean that every single weapon has the same proc rate. Which is not true.

Except isn't the whole point of ppm that the average # of procs per minute is the same no matter the speed of the weapon? According to his formula, it allows for variable weapon damage. Fast weapons do less dps with SoC because of the same number of procs that do a lower amount of damage.

Same issue here: You take spell damage added to a single proc, then you multiply it by 7 procs per minute and divide by 60, but that would mean that every single weapon has the same proc rate. Which is again not true. Also the formula only works for +Holy damage, but for Spell Damage from gear, you have to use (Spellpower *0.20).

I didn't know that spell power had a different coefficient. However, for his list the only spell damage was from SotC judgement. For that reason he never had to claim it was the whole formula. Obviously, the list isn't the be all end all, but it can be a stepping off point. The fact it was made by a blizzard employee back in 2006 and not a player I think it can be forgiven that it isn't an in depth analysis of how useful the weapon is in a group setting with all the different variances possible.

Edit: Also a question, does Vengeance cause a double dip as it increases your physical and holy damage?

 

[Psojed]

Drahmin clearly states the parameters of the lists, and it would be unreasonable to list all the different variables without a spreadsheet. The list is not about the utility of weapons.

It would be very reasonable to list the variables with heavy impact, especially if there is only one (case of Nightfall's proc).
PS: What utility? "Which two-hand weapon is better for your paladin?" for all raids, Nightfall is definitely better than the others.

Drahmin clearly states first that "weapon speed (the slower, the better)." He then mentions weapon dps as when you have a slower weapon with a higher dps you end up with the better weapon to use. He also mentions other factors that need to be taken into account.

No.
"Many elements have an impact on SoC dps :", then follows a list of the "elements having an impact". If the list is randomly thrown together or sorted, the author does not say, but as I explained, weapon DPS does not belong into that list.

Except isn't the whole point of ppm that the average # of procs per minute is the same no matter the speed of the weapon? According to his formula, it allows for variable weapon damage. Fast weapons do less dps with SoC because of the same number of procs that do a lower amount of damage.

Yeah, that is the common misconception. The average 7 PPM does not mean that in every fight lasting one minute, you will proc on average 7 times. Feel free to try it in the game.

I didn't know that spell power had a different coefficient. However, for his list the only spell damage was from SotC judgement. For that reason he never had to claim it was the whole formula.

Exactly. But he claims precisely that it is the whole formula - he states "+Calculation of +spellpower SoC dps :", not "calculation of JotC" or "calculation of +holy damage".

Obviously, the list isn't the be all end all, but it can be a stepping off point. The fact it was made by a blizzard employee back in 2006 and not a player I think it can be forgiven that it isn't an in depth analysis of how useful the weapon is in a group setting with all the different variances possible.

I don't care who made the list. Like I said, idk what the list was actually meant for. It brings more questions than answers...
- Wow, now I know that Herald of Woe has 47.8 SoC dps and The Unstoppable Force has 48.8 SoC dps! How can I use this new information? What does it mean?
- In the first list, Herald of Woe is listed below TuF, but in the other list TuF is below Herald of Woe! So which one should I use and why???

The list doesn't tell you :wink:

Edit: Also a question, does Vengeance cause a double dip as it increases your physical and holy damage?

Define "double dip". As you said, it increases both your physical and your holy damage.

 

[WilliamBarrows]

Yeah, that is the common misconception. The average 7 PPM does not mean that in every fight lasting one minute, you will proc on average 7 times. Feel free to try it in the game.

Then what is the correct formula? From what I know 7ppm means the proc rate is chosen so that it procs on average 7 times a minute. That obviously doesn't mean it will proc exactly 7 times every minute, there's a lot of variance there due to the proc being a random chance, but the average over a long period of time should still be 7 procs per minute.

E.g. with a 4s weapon we get 15 swings a minute, and on average 7 of those are procs, so the proc chance is 7/15, which is the same as 4*7/60 (hence the 7/60 in the formula).

I agree that the usefulness of the list is somewhat questionable and that saying "weapons dps matters" wasn't the best wording to use, and it would've been clearer if they had said "weapon damage matters" i.e. the damage a weapon does in a single swing, as that is the number SoComm proc damage is derived from.

 

[Psojed]

You already wrote the correct formula. It's weapon speed * 7 ppm / 60. With 4 speed weapon you have 46,6% proc chance, while with a 3.4 speed weapon you have only 39,6% proc chance.

This list should have been divided for PvE and PvP, with explanation on the specific weights on weapons like Nightfall. Let me add my look on that subject.

---

For PvP you look at weapon speed and top end weapon damage.
Your hits may be fewer in number, but get more bursty, and burst damage is what you seek for PvP. Finally, the proc-chance also translates into any other extra attacks you might get (like Reckoning multi-hits or Hand of Justice extra attacks). And as already stated, slower weapons usually have higher weapon damage ranges.

For PvP, your top 10 list should be:

1. Might of Menethil
2. Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros (proc, high proc rate fireball)
3. Dark Edge of Insanity (proc, 3s disorient that doesn't drop on damage)
4. Grand Marshal's Claymore/Battle Hammer
(Corrupted Ashbringer)
(Eye of Nerub)
5. Maul of Redeemed Crusader
6. Severance
7. Claymore of Unholy Might
8. Ashkandi, Greatsword of the Brotherhood
9. Bonereaver's Edge (proc: 700 armor penetration buff, stack up to 3 times)
(Barb of the Sand Reaver)
10. Herald of Woe

- The two agility polearms are unranked on purpose, leave those to the hunters.
- I've skipped Corrupted Ashbringer due to -25 stamina.
- Note on the +spelldamage 2h-maces, they have good weapon damage, but Str/AP/agi > spell dmg, which is why no sane Grand Marshal paladin would ever pick the Demolisher over Claymore/Battle Hammer.

---

For PvE, you look at top end weapon damage and stats.
Speed becomes secondary in PvE, since SoComm will be only about 20% of your DPS. The majority of your damage will be your autoattacks, so you are gearing towards your autoattacks. Speed of your weapons will come naturally when looking for top end damages anyway. Spell damage's equivalence rises only very slightly on encounters vs. undead monsters, don't let it affect your choice too much. Str has slightly higher value than raw AP, because we assume +10% BoKings and +10% Divine Str. And finally, this list applies to human paladins (dwarves, don't even try, just go holy..), because they get +5 weapon skill to maces and swords. Weapon skill has very high value, because it boosts damage of all glancing blows, which are 40% of your autoattacks by default, or simply said, +weapon skill affects your DPS a LOT.

For PvE, your top 10 list should be:

Nightfall*
1. Might of Menethil
2. Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros
3. Corrupted Ashbringer
4. Dark Edge of Insanity (Axe)
5. Maul of the Redeemed Crusader
(Eye of Nerub - polearm)
6. Claymore of Unholy Might
7. Grand Marshal's Claymore/Battle Hammer
8. Severance (Axe)
9. Ashkandi, Greatsword of the Brotherhood
10. Bonereaver's Edge

* Nightfall has fairly low DPS for you, but it boosts raidwide DPS of casters considerably.

- The agility polearm is unranked on purpose, leave those to the hunters.
- Note on the +spelldamage 2h-maces, they have good weapon damage, but Str/AP/Agi > spell dmg, which is why no sane Grand Marshal paladin would ever pick the Demolisher over Claymore/Battle Hammer.

I have not ran raid dps tests for these weapons, those are just my recommendations, so they could be wrong.

--

For the lower tier weapon procs, Spinal Reaper is bad for a pally, the proc is quite useless. Untamed Blade proc is highly unreliable and 8 seconds mean you get 2 hits+procs tops, and you can get CCd when the proc happens, which is why I would prefer a permanent bonus rather than Untamed. Drake Talon Cleaver has decent proc rate. Halberd of Smiting has very low proc rate. Take TuF over Zin'rokh due to the proc and crit bonuses. Earthshaker procrate is very low, but the proc is like a stunning thunderclap, it's great on a warrior, not so great on a pally. Runeblade of Baron Rivendare doesn't stack with your talent or boots enchant. And finally, Blackblade of Shahram is very useful proc, procs failry often, but due to different effects it is very RNG-heavy.
I have no experience with Neretzek, Sulfuron Hammer and Jeklik's Crusher procrates. Kalimdor's Revenge proc should stack with spell damage, but the 3.2 speed is just awful.

 

[WilliamBarrows]

You already wrote the correct formula. It's weapon speed * 7 ppm / 60. With 4 speed weapon you have 46,6% proc chance, while with a 3.4 speed weapon you have only 39,6% proc chance.

Oh, I guess I misunderstood you then, it seemed like you were implying a different formula was needed.

Is there any reference regarding proc rates of different "on hit" procs? All of them just say "chance on hit", but don't specify the actual proc rate.

 

[Psojed]

There is none, gotta collect the bits and pieces. There's a bug report of already collected procrates, but I don't know if they are accurate to retail (or Kronos for that matter).

 

[Whitewolf28]

It would be very reasonable to list the variables with heavy impact, especially if there is only one (case of Nightfall's proc).
PS: What utility? "Which two-hand weapon is better for your paladin?" for all raids, Nightfall is definitely better than the others.

The list was made for damage only back before the release of Naxx.

No.
"Many elements have an impact on SoC dps :", then follows a list of the "elements having an impact". If the list is randomly thrown together or sorted, the author does not say, but as I explained, weapon DPS does not belong into that list.

Tomato, Tomato. There is no difference in having a slow attack speed weapon with a high dps and one that has a high max damage.

Yeah, that is the common misconception. The average 7 PPM does not mean that in every fight lasting one minute, you will proc on average 7 times. Feel free to try it in the game.

Except it is the whole point and you even agreed it was the right formula:

You already wrote the correct formula. It's weapon speed * 7 ppm / 60. With 4 speed weapon you have 46,6% proc chance, while with a 3.4 speed weapon you have only 39,6% proc chance.

Exactly. But he claims precisely that it is the whole formula - he states "+Calculation of +spellpower SoC dps :", not "calculation of JotC" or "calculation of +holy damage".

You are arguing semantics. For the holy spellpower he used it was the correct formula.

I don't care who made the list. Like I said, idk what the list was actually meant for. It brings more questions than answers...
- Wow, now I know that Herald of Woe has 47.8 SoC dps and The Unstoppable Force has 48.8 SoC dps! How can I use this new information? What does it mean?
- In the first list, Herald of Woe is listed below TuF, but in the other list TuF is below Herald of Woe! So which one should I use and why???

The list doesn't tell you :wink:

It does. The first list is ranked solely by SoC's addition to your dps. The second list is ranked by total dps. All based on the stats provided.

Define "double dip". As you said, it increases both your physical and your holy damage.

Does it increase your original physical hit which then increases your SoC proc which is then increased another 15%?
100% * 1.15 *.7 * 1.15

 

[Psojed]

The list was made for damage only back before the release of Naxx.

I don't see the point in your comment, Nightfall is available prior to Naxx.

Tomato, Tomato. There is no difference in having a slow attack speed weapon with a high dps and one that has a high max damage.

That doesn't change the fact that weapon DPS does not belong in that list. Again, you or me might know what to look for, but new paladin player does not.

Except it is the whole point and you even agreed it was the right formula:

Once again, just for you. The proc chance of Seal of Command is different for different weapon speeds.
46% != 39%

You are arguing semantics.

And what are you arguing here? You're not the author, yet your first reply was "Drahmin clearly states", as if you knew exactly what the author had in mind. I don't care what he thought. The list is useless, filled with errors, the author didn't explain how the players should use the lists.

It does. The first list is ranked solely by SoC's addition to your dps. The second list is ranked by total dps. All based on the stats provided.

Neither of the lists answers the questions. You didn't answer the questions either.

Does it increase your original physical hit which then increases your SoC proc which is then increased another 15%?
100% * 1.15 *.7 * 1.15

After reading your last reply, I'm sure you can use the list to find the answer you seek.

 

[Whitewolf28]

I don't see the point in your comment, Nightfall is available prior to Naxx.


That doesn't change the fact that weapon DPS does not belong in that list. Again, you or me might know what to look for, but new paladin player does not.


Once again, just for you. The proc chance of Seal of Command is different for different weapon speeds.
46% != 39%


And what are you arguing here? You're not the author, yet your first reply was "Drahmin clearly states", as if you knew exactly what the author had in mind. I don't care what he thought. The list is useless, filled with errors, the author didn't explain how the players should use the lists.


Neither of the lists answers the questions. You didn't answer the questions either.


After reading your last reply, I'm sure you can use the list to find the answer you seek.

What's with the constant hostility? Weapon speed variance is already in the formula:

Formula to calculate SoC dps :

((Damage range ((weapon dps + attack power dps) * weapon attack speed) * 0.70 * 7 ppm ) / 60 seconds) * 1+crit%

You mentioned Might of Menethil in another post so I was mentioning the time frame the list was made.

Which two-hand weapon is better for your paladin? The answer is not always easy when you take Seal of Command (SoC) into account.

Many elements have an impact on SoC dps : Weapon speed (the slower, the better), weapon dps (the higher, the better), weapon special attributes (Agi, str, attack power, %crit), total attack power, total %crit and spellpower.

So I decided to calculate SoC dps for every 2h weapons with over 50 dps usable by paladins (Maces, Swords, Axes, Polearms).

Edit : I will add, like suggested by McHammar, a list that also included physical damage (with 25% damage reduction from armor). But keep in mind that this isn't an exact hierachy of the best weapons. For that, I'd need to calculate procs (And I can't do that, even if I wanted to!).
To be fair, I'd also need to calculate physical dps with different stats setup and/or physical damage reduction. (again, I won't do that, it would be endless). Another thing I did not consider is the effect of vengeance, I'm trying to figure out a way to calculate it and If I find something worth posting, I'll keep you updated.

Is the math wrong? Is it just not up to the extremely high standards of a perfectionist? What am I missing that is causing this to be anything other than a discussion?

Edit:

And what are you arguing here? You're not the author, yet your first reply was "Drahmin clearly states", as if you knew exactly what the author had in mind. I don't care what he thought. The list is useless, filled with errors, the author didn't explain how the players should use the lists.

I just realized you quoted me out of context.

Drahmin clearly states the parameters of the lists, and it would be unreasonable to list all the different variables without a spreadsheet. The list is not about the utility of weapons.

Drahmin clearly states first that "weapon speed (the slower, the better)." He then mentions weapon dps as when you have a slower weapon with a higher dps you end up with the better weapon to use. He also mentions other factors that need to be taken into account.

Did I tell a lie? Did I speculate? I realize I forgot a comma between "dps" and "as", but I didn't think that everything he said was mutually exclusive.

 

[bl4ckc0d3r]

I have a ret paladin spreadsheet I made that I could share if you are interested; it contains Seal of Command DPS as well. However, since I made it for my personal use it's not that user-friendly and requires you to manually edit some fields that correspond to base stat values for your race and talent points, and there is no option to compare two different gear sets; you would have to swap gear pieces and then compare DPS values.

One thing that the spreadsheet does not consider is partial resists due to level (sometimes you get 25% of holy damage resisted) as I don't know what the formula is. No clue how often it should happen. It also does not consider weapon procs nor enchantment procs. For example, if you have Crusader on weapon, you have to manually add that to the calculation: 100 str with 1 PPM, lasts 15 secs, so adds 25 str when uniformly distributed over a minute; SoC procs and judgements increase PPM over 1.5 per minute so this number should be higher etc so Crusader adds roughly 37 str on average. The point is, spreadsheet doesn't do this for you automatically.

Since I no longer play my paladin, I never got round to finishing this up nor do I have such plans for now. However, if you are still interested, let me know.

 

[Psojed]

...

I'm not hostile. I'm only annoyed.

You quoted my text about Nightfall and replied with "list was made prior to Naxx". But I did not mention MoM in our discussion about Nightfall, which is why I didn't see the point in your comment. I listed Might of Menethil in my own list of weapons for paladins.

Weapon speed variance is already in the formula
...
Is the math wrong?

Let me break this down for you:

((weapon dps + attack power dps) * weapon attack speed) * 0.70

is the formula for calculating SoC average damage. Weapon speed is part of that formula, because he uses DPS to get an average, so he needs to convert the DPS back into DAMAGE with each hit. That is

DPS * weapon speed = damage

The * 0.7 means only 70% of that damage converts into SoC damage.

So that leaves you this part

* 7 ppm ) / 60 seconds) * 1+crit%

disregarding the crit % chance at the end leaves

* 7 ppm  / 60 seconds

so every single weapon's resulting SoC damage got multiplied by 11,67%, or in other words, the calculated SoC dps is as if your weapon speed was always 1.00.
You might know, that % proc chance formula is

weapon speed * PPM / 60

As you can see, Weapon speed is completely omitted in his formula when calculating proc chance, which makes his SoC dps calculation AND spell damage bonus calculation wrong. Both his lists are useless because of that.

I said the same thing in my first reply:

You take weapon dps + AP dps, multiply by speed to get avg. damage per hit, then multiply by 0.7 to gain avg. SoC damage, then you multiply it by 7 procs per minute and divide by 60, but that would mean that every single weapon has the same proc rate. Which is not true.

 

[Whitewolf28]

((Damage range ((weapon dps + attack power dps) * weapon attack speed) * 0.70 * 7 ppm ) / 60 seconds) * 1+crit%

So assuming a 90-110 damage weapon. 3.8 attack speed and 0 crit. 100 average damage / 3.8 attack speed is 26.32 dps. 280 attack power is 20 dps. 26.32 + 20 = 46.32 total weapon dps.

Multiply 46.32 by 3.8 attack speed to get the 176 Average damage per swing. Multiply that .7 to get the 123 average SoC proc damage. At 3.8 speed you get an averaged 15.79 swings in 60 seconds for a 7 / 15.79 = 44.3% chance to proc which averages 7 ppm. With 7 ppm you get 862 average damage over 60 seconds. Divide by 60 to get 14.4 dps.

So following what you said I should multiply again by 3.8 to get the true dps of 54.6?

I am apparently really lost if 14.4 isn't the average dps

 

[WilliamBarrows]

(Maths Stuff)

That's what I originally thought too, but I double-checked and as it turns out the formula is actually correct. Look at it this way:

Once you've got your ((weapon dps + attack power dps) * weapon attack speed) * 0.70 that's the holy damage of a single proc.

7ppm means that the proc chance is chosen in such a way that you get on average 7 procs per minute.

So if you multiply the damage of a single proc by 7 you get the average SoComm damage per minute (since there are on average 7 proc per minute).

You now convert your "damage per minute" to "damage per second" by divinding it by 60, resulting in the forumla in the OP.

 

[Psojed]

Okay, that makes sense. Still, this formula feels so weird to me. Probably since this works on paper, but in minute of game combat, you don't usually get 7 procs of Command.

PS: No, I still believe it's wrong. The formula ignores haste effects and extra attacks (Hand of Justice, Reckoning). PPM uses base weapon speed to calculate proc chance, but due to haste or due to extra attacks, you will get more than 15.79 attacks per minute.

 

[WilliamBarrows]

Yea, it seems pretty unintuintive.

PS: No, I still believe it's wrong. The formula ignores haste effects and extra attacks (Hand of Justice, Reckoning). PPM uses base weapon speed to calculate proc chance, but due to haste or due to extra attacks, you will get more than 15.79 attacks per minute.

You're right that the forumla doesn't take into account haste and extra attacks, but that doesn't make the formula wrong. It's only meant to calculate pure SoComm proc DPS, not including haste or extra attacks. As such it doesn't give a be-all and end-all list of the best two-handers, it just ranks the ones with the highest SoComm proc DPS which can be one of several factors to consider when deciding on the overall best weapon to use with SoComm (other factors being talents such as Reckoning, weapon procs, etc).