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    TwinStar team

Starting raids without world buffs

impossibledream

New Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2018
I think it is bad idea, I base my opinion on two not approved facts yet:
1) this server will be blizzlike
2) the naxx/rag on release will be truly naxx/rag on release (not nerfed 1.12 version with a lot of nerfs)
In case one of (1), 2)) does not apply this thread is meaningless.
Do not base your opinion that 11 years ago players were worse and they did not know shit - this is bs and it is proven by the screenshots of Kungen - the raid setup is close to perfect and he has way more and flexible consumables(potions) compared to private server tanks that tank naxx.

The idea goes like that: there were bosses that were unkillable without world buffs in naxx/rag (ragnaros was unkilled for 156 days because of overtuning and that wasnt because of skill, again, the players playing that game saw FAR MORE CHALLENGING bossfights in 2000's Everquest than they were in vanilla mechanically) (
13min Loatheb according to Kungen at least). So this gives 1month of no progress other than like 60-70% bosses being killable.
Isnt it better to adjust it a bit? Like giving no world buffs and +5-10% boss hp/damage (or even +15%) in molten core/ bwl and all of the dungeons this would include people having to bring holy waters from boxes in order to kill rivendare, making Balnazzar really challenging fight with awesome rewards and so on. (and keeping buff ban since MC and BWL are significantly easier than aq40/Naxx with dmg requirements) and maybe +5% in naxx (or more incase private servers dont have access to prenerf bosses) but allowing world buffs?
Question is: will you replicate real ragnaros / naxx experience or rely on 1.12 client hp/dmg mods? Because killable ragnaros in 7days at start is just lame private server stuff and waste of time.
 
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It's actually a valid concern, that has been brought up here as well: https://forum.twinstar.cz/threads/k...-try-to-solve-it-for-once-and-for-all.123766/

Key bosses should generally be no push-over.
It is kinda weird how private servers "fix" the things. Retail was brutal and unfair lets face it. Molten Core was impossible to complete at first (Ragnaros overtuning) then they nerfed it a bit and bunch of guilds rolled, then nerfed again and majority of playerbase completed it (so what 1.12 brings is 3 nerfs after the unbeatable version a.k.a. freeloot mode). Same with AQ40, the same story with loatheb, The Eye (TBC), 0lights, Lich King HC 25, ragnaros HC. All these bosses were horribly overtuned most of them (except rag hc and 0 lights) unkilled prenerf. Right now many of private players think they're the shit and they know how to optimize stuff. But the brutal reality is, if anyone would have launched prenerf ragnaros he would stay undefeated for as many weeks as you want him to be undefeated (unless you would launch the tiers above rag aswell) and that would be fun - seeing how many of players would try and complain about difficulty that not private servers, b ut retail servers had to endure and that killed the guilds and people were clueless that bosses were unbeatable.
 
I was there on release year, i know what you mean.

Must've been early 2005 when the first major guilds of our sever (EU-Frostwolf) dared to enter the mystic realm of Molten Core. No easy cake addons for thread meters/boss mechanic warnings/decurse etc, just brutal and pure first-hand experience.
Lucifron brought us to the brink of surrender after hours and hours of wiping, until the whole teamspeak server broke out in excitement and joy, downing the Gatekeeper of WoW raiding.

Wasn't much different with Ragnaros some months later. Still raiding with people in green/blue items. Some lucky chosen few were running around half-decked with epics, which was such a nice contrast to have.
Yeah those were the times i most fondly remember.

And still i much rather play 1.12 than most of the current mmorpgs. Because even if it's less hardcore than a decade ago, the overall world creates an experience second to none and wpvp, community efforts and some raids (AQ/ZG are probably my favorites) are still very enjoyable.

WoW 1.12 is not hanging by a thread, but i am with you on that it could (many veterans would say: should) be more true to its origins.
 
the naxx/rag on release will be truly naxx/rag on release (not nerfed 1.12 version with a lot of nerfs)
Kronos is 1.12.1, with just some items and 8 debuff slots being gated.

You know why no private server ever did real Vanilla pre-nerf? Because Vanilla was mostly nerfed by buffing the players, the raids themselves were hardly changed (if ever - I'd be grateful if you can show me a patchnote where a raid nerf is mentioned). And you can't play with talents and abilities within 1.12.1 client (and it would be a tremendous amount of work just to bring back a game as unbalanced as 1.1 was).

And btw even the top 2005 players were awful by modern standards. They just couldn't know everything we know in advance. And the ping was worse. So I think even if e.g. Blizz will emulate 1.1, it will still be fairly easy to clear MC.

Hope it's more clear now.
 
Kronos is 1.12.1, with just some items and 8 debuff slots being gated.

You know why no private server ever did real Vanilla pre-nerf? Because Vanilla was mostly nerfed by buffing the players, the raids themselves were hardly changed (if ever - I'd be grateful if you can show me a patchnote where a raid nerf is mentioned). And you can't play with talents and abilities within 1.12.1 client (and it would be a tremendous amount of work just to bring back a game as unbalanced as 1.1 was).

And btw even the top 2005 players were awful by modern standards. They just couldn't know everything we know in advance. And the ping was worse. So I think even if e.g. Blizz will emulate 1.1, it will still be fairly easy to clear MC.

Hope it's more clear now.
You have no idea what you are talking about mate. From your ping argument to talents. I have been playing games since 11 years old and Mu Online (ofc you havent heard of game because you are youngster) was on 120ping for me (that is quite insane given the servers were hosted in Taiwan). What you are reffering is average frame rate per second and it was only problem in your country and postsoviet eastern european countries and alike (i.e. poor countries). Low (but stable) average frame rate per second is rarely a problem in world of warcraft and other games like that. Reaction time only provides you with advantage when you're abusing complicated death evasion mechanics (such as mage blink at last milisec after casts/ iceblock the mechanic) or on a fun duty (such as Alysrazor firemage ring duty).
Anyways my argument still holds it was not just talents, Ragnaros was overtuned by insane amount. Same with AQ40 (they nerfed it and like 5 hours after Cthun nerf it was cleared by manyyyyy guilds), same with loatheb, Kael'thas, Lich King HC, 0Lights, there is so many examples it hurts - even Legion Guldan raid it was heavily overtuned until the nerfhammer nerfed everything past including Krosus. It was like that since Ragnaros (the very first raid encounter excluding onyxia) till the very last raid (excluding wotlk naxx, emerald nightmare legion, mogu'shan vaults MoP and few other trivial raids that doesn't pop out in my head atm).
Facts :
top players in 2005 werent awful by today's standards. Human did not evolve in intelligence that far since then, wow is simple game that only requires simple Statistics101 to emulate all of its possible dps mechanics (atleast vanilla ones) to see the distribution tables of dps and so on.
Many players were awful, but there were enough who would overwhelm majority of today's players - some would unveil true power of class even before 60 and qq on blizz forums forever so they would fix its OP mechanics (rogue with worn dagger and no gear could beat literally any class and it wasn't because everyone couldn't play against rogue - it was because till late vanilla most of classes were stupidly bugged and not finished to even compete with classes that were almost finished (rogue was only class to be almost finished at launch - others were stupidily not which is why we had specs like arcane mage, surv hunter, ret pala, prot pala, warriors who had to tank in arms etc.) People did not fail rag because they sucked, people failed rag because he was insanely overpowered with his pushbacks RNG (it was much more than what you see in private servers) people would wait and wait and wait till they get "good try", not like in these 1.12 servers where you can 1shot it everytime statistically. Statistically you could kill rag only 1 out of 1000 tries which is why it wasn't killable.
P.S. coming back to average frame rate per second problem - human reaction time even dropped since the average adult has lower reaction time than average teen (and wow pop is aging). Given your arguments 50+ yo raid couldn't even down rag because they have this "fps drop" in their reaction time which admit, sounds awful - even 70+ yo grannies could down ragnaros on 1.12 private servers.
 
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Anyways my argument still holds it was not just talents, Ragnaros was overtuned by insane amount
Any proof of it? You're right about C'Thun, it was tuned to unkillablity as I heard. No idea about Loatheb, but again, guess the overtuning didn't last long. I still think it was mostly about 1.1 weak classes.

When I say "players were awful", I refer in particular to them not prefarming resistance crap, and not even gearing their tanks for 4HM year in advance.
 
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