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Information The Next Steps

How should Naxxramas be released?


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Brochette

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Joined
Sep 9, 2015
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#76
I dont get it, most people are not blaming GM/server quality. Head team just can't admit that K1 is really low pop, like really low, that's frustating. We are mad because the server is really good but the fact are simple: a server is dead when the pop is getting too low, and for K1 at least we are just over this limit and nothing was announce to counter this. The recent announcement from the other project might be the final blow.

But dont get me wrong if you consider having 3 raidloggin guild on alliance side as being healthy and alive, then we had a different point of view from the begining and i am sorry for bothering you.
 

Davros

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Aug 20, 2015
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555
#77
Head team just can't admit that K1 is really low pop, like really low, that's frustating.
We have not said that K1 server population isn't low nor have we hid the fact that the K1 population is down. We are constantly monitoring things and with our gameplan in place we're confident that we're on the right path which will end up with a healthy server, especially once K2 has AQ open. Options are currently thin short term, but they significantly improve when both servers are on the same content.
 
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Likes
351
#78
I love both the Kronos community, and the private server community as a whole. We are all a part of something that we feel passionately about. We all want the same thing in the end. We all are willing to fight for the ability to enjoy something that has long since been taken from us in retail. The reason we're all "here" is because we want to enjoy ourselves.

I get a lot of the frustration in the community. I am/was a player just like each and every one of you. I have been in groups that couldn't find members and ended up disbanding. I have been in raids that have been called for lack of players. I have been in raids that were impossible due to bugs and/or lag. These things are frustrating to everyone, and as a staff member I can tell you that these things frustrate us just as much as players.

I'm not a developer, nor am I a network specialist. I do not have a major computer background nor do I have a direct desire to do so. What I do have like all of you is passion. What we as a team have like all of you is passion. Whether you see us in game, on the forums, in iRC or discord, or don't see us at all does not diminish our passion for this project or for the private server community as a whole. None of us are paid to spend our time fixing quests or answering questions or patrolling zones catching bots, or investigating gold logs to put a hurting on gold sellers. The time we spend working hard for every player in our community is ours to give, and for this we do not expect anything in return. Well, let me clarify that last statement. We love making players happy by helping to solve a problem that is disturbing their game experience. It makes us happy when we can be of help, and when we can't we feel like shit. While we can only do so much, there is a lot that is outside of our capability. The enjoyment of players and their passion for the game is all the thanks we as a team need. It's why we do what we do.

Having said all that. The frustration from many players both within the Kronos community and within many other private project communities seems to be on a continual ramp up. Kronos is not alone in this, in fact another game master from a different project who volunteered his time and efforts for the exact same reasons we do could no longer take the frustration and hate that players were emitting and quit their project. I understand where players are coming from, and the problems and issues that plague many projects including ours. But understand that the constant negativity and borderline hate that comes from the player base has as much or more of a negative impact to a project than the problems themselves. It takes strong skin to be in a position such as this, and while I am not one to tell players what they can/can't say (as long as it's within the rules of the server). I do ask that everyone reading this to please think twice before you write based off pure emotion and think about how the negativity will not only effect your fellow community but those who both give their time to help others (staff and non staff alike).

I have never once not believed that Kronos has the best community in any private server. Am I bias? perhaps. I have gotten to know many players on the server both in my role as a staff member and as a regular schmo just playing the game to enjoy the content and community that retail has long since lost. Many of the names I see in this thread are players who I have either come to know in one role or the other, and I personally enjoy the passion you all bring. Seeing some of the things that has been said (and continues to be said) has been not only frustrating as a staff member, but disheartening as a volunteer and as a member of the community. Everyone is entitled to feel the way they do, I do not hold that against anyone. I do only wish that players would understand the greater scope of the situation going on not only on Kronos but the private server community as a whole.

At no point have myself nor any of our staff/devs spoken ill about any other project. In fact, if you look into my history on the wow server sub reddit you will see countless examples of myself not only praising other projects but also wishing that projects would be able to work together as a whole. Sure, that's likely wishful thinking on my part. But the simple fact is that in a community like ours, hate should be the last thing we do to any project (let alone a project you have spent a fair amount of time on). Yes, Kronos has it's flaws. Yes, some issues are more difficult to resolve than others. However rather than looking all at the bad, sometimes you need to stop and recount all the things that were good. Kronos has been through a lot in its time, and has overcome some of the most difficult odds that I challenge any server to compare. The DDoS attacks alone were powerful and lengthy enough that any other project would have taken a year(s) to recover (if at all). Those attacks were meant to kill Kronos. By sure perseverance, determination, a committed staff and an amazing community, we stood up to those who sought to harm us and we overcame. Did we make it out without scars? no, there was some lasting damage caused. We're proud of the scars we bare because they represent our dedication, and this drives us to become better.

On a personal note, I can honestly say I have never seen more dedicated people in a project than I have in Kronos. Through thick and thin we have kept on fighting, and we will keep on fighting. For all of those doomsayers who say "RIP Kronos", to so easily turn your back on a project that has dedicated so much to you is your decision to make. That won't stop us from doing what we do out of passion. Our team as a whole works endless hours and often without any thanks. Fix one issue, players bring up two more. Fix those two, and two more occur. This is a never ending cycle, and in the human population of the world people as a whole always expect more. We're not perfect, perfection is a mirage. However we are, and will continue to be relentless. The dedication and hard work we put in is not going anywhere. None of us will ever hold a gun to your heads and say you can only play here, and to those who view Kronos as doom and gloom and will "jump ship" at the next new shiny project I encourage you to decide what is best for you. We (Kronos) will still be here, continuing this great journey to Naxx and TBC.


In the end we all want some place that is fun and a place where we can meet people and come together. Kronos still is the best community, there is no comparison. I look forward to continue helping and watching Kronos grow, and am very excited for the fun that is to come for Kronos as a whole. I have complete confidence in our staff, in our devs, and in Twinstar. We've come this far through far worse things, and we'll continue to improve the project as a whole. Our community and our quality are our main priorities, and we will do everything we can to continue to be top notch in both. Our heads are not in the sand, our eyes are wide open and we encourage players to come along for the ride if they so choose.

We'll see you in game, and have a great day to all :)
Like Brochette said we're not judging the GMs or the quality of the server itself, and personally I try to never point my finger to anyone in general. Also we should all admire and be grateful for the stoic dedication of the volunteers GMs team.

The negativity you mention in your post is probably coming mostly from the Kronos I community. Many of us feel like we've been left behind, even though I'm conscious that this is not the reality, since the GMs are still active on this server too and the developers keep working to fix bugs and add new content, but this is not the point.

The point is that we all know that Kronos I is lacking new players that are being drained by Kronos II, and it's going to reach an even lower population. That was the reason why there was going to be another experience boost event. But for the sake of a global server equality such event should've never been considered, if not as a last resource. I guess that's why people reacted so negatively when there was that announcement some time ago. Becouse launching another experience boost like that would've probably compromised even more the remote possibility of a merge.
I'm confident that the merge is just a matter of time, at this point I don't think anyone is taking any advantage for keeping up two separate servers, it's just double work for the adminitrators and the whole team; so I'm guessing that when both servers will be alligned, a database merge will happen.

But back to the point, considering all these factors we're simply afraid to play on a very low population server for all the time that is needed for the two servers to be alligned. Also like someone else already pointed out, releasing Naxxramas on Kronos I would just increase the gap with Kronos II and prolong this agony even more, and letting the Kronos I community play on an agonizing server even longer.

I understand that the administrators don't want to disappoint the bigger community on Kronos II, especially now that alot of them might consider to jump on that hype train to some other vanilla project, and that's totally legit. But then don't be surprised to receive some poison from your old rotting community on Kronos I, we do have feelings too.
 
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Slippy

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May 7, 2016
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87
#79
Many of us are worried that once the other options open up the rest of K1 will be gone, never to return. In fact we know they are going because it's all we talk about in chat. That kind of blow is just not something K1 can afford in it's current state; which is why we've been urging action now. A merge months down the road will be pointless because there will be nothing left to merge with.

How would a future merge even work without one of the servers making a sacrifice? Either K2 skips The War Effort, or, K1 holds on Naxx for 5+ months until AQ is released on K2 and they've had time to farm it. They can hardly release Naxx and AQ at the same time on one merged server. I can't imagine how bad K1 would be after that amount of time. They might as well close it.

The best way to do it would be to skip The War Effort on K2 and merge now before everyone leaves. The War Effort sucks anyway. I'm not saying it's an easy decision, but it's one they're going to have to make eventually, and this is the best time.
 
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Joined
Jan 18, 2016
Likes
39
#80
We have not said that K1 server population isn't low nor have we hid the fact that the K1 population is down. We are constantly monitoring things and with our gameplan in place we're confident that we're on the right path which will end up with a healthy server, especially once K2 has AQ open. Options are currently thin short term, but they significantly improve when both servers are on the same content.
Im on the same page with brochette. I love this server, have had first hand experience of how great and passionate the GM's are. I personally am not experiencing issues with lag or know of anyone in my guild who is at any time. I know the Euros are having issues because their certainly is some latency issues during peak EU hours. At the same time it bothers me deeply that we are not seeing fresh blood on K1 because people are forced to choose between a server that is thriving and a server that is dwindling.
 

Davros

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Aug 20, 2015
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555
#81
Nothing is set in stone, and everything is on the table. If a server merger happens, it won't happen until K2 has AQ open. Depriving players of the great war effort and the ability to gain the mount would be unfair to them since the war effort was a big part of Vanilla. So with everything being on the table and Naxx scheduled for the new year, there is one possibility that a merge could take place before the release of Naxx. Again, nothing is in stone and there are numerous possibilities open to us. But we will do what is best for the health and wellbeing of Kronos as a whole, as we always have.
 

Slippy

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May 7, 2016
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87
#82
I don't get much lag in the UK.

I really think that at this stage of K1's life they should increase the xp rate to say x3. I know all the arguments against, but really, what have we got left to lose? People don't want to roll on K1 because they know it will take forever to level, and then have to catch up in gear to AQ at 60. Increasing xp will help speed the levelling experience so they can do the fun stuff at 60.

It will get us new levellers, right? K1 needs to give players an incentive to roll there over other places and faster levelling could be it.
 

galfior

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Apr 28, 2016
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#83
Nothing is set in stone, and everything is on the table. If a server merger happens, it won't happen until K2 has AQ open. Depriving players of the great war effort and the ability to gain the mount would be unfair to them since the war effort was a big part of Vanilla. So with everything being on the table and Naxx scheduled for the new year, there is one possibility that a merge could take place before the release of Naxx. Again, nothing is in stone and there are numerous possibilities open to us. But we will do what is best for the health and wellbeing of Kronos as a whole, as we always have.
Fine we K1 players will wait for AQ to open on K2 before a merge. However you are eluding one simple question that a lot of people are asking in this thread. Will you make the war effort blizzlike on K2 or not? Will it complete it self after two months or will it be like on K1 (wich took 6 months even thought there was an income of new players from the 7x xp event and Nost shutdown). Because if you are planning to make it like it was on K1, we might as well give up now.
 
Joined
Jan 18, 2016
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#84
Well the openness is appreciated, but I for one am not gonna wait for something that 'might' happen. I get what you guys are doing, you're waiting and seeing what happens with this other project which you are entitled to do in your own right. But I'm not gonna wait and see what kronos does. I'm gonna go play on this new project and perhaps ill raid log on kronos until their aren't enough people to raid kronos anymore with.
 
Joined
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#85
I am glad that you decided not to rush things that would have deprived Kronos 2 players from a major part of the vanilla experience.
Still i understand the urge people feel about merging .. and i dont see any reason this should be delayed more then neccessary, since both servers will profit from this in the long run.

The problem i see is that many people dont really think long term based, but instead want fast changes. Even if those changes have the potential of doing more harm then good (in terms of overall population on both servers combined .. and since we want ONE healthy populated server in the end THIS is what should matter, right?).

I know some people dont wanna hear this .. you have no other choice but to be patient atm. Take a break or start an alt somewhere (doesnt even have to be on the Kronos project).
Yes, many people will leave (and many already have) in favor of other projects, but i also see many people coming back to Kronos once there is new content avaiable and the playerbase to back it up.
You simply cant farm MC/BWL for years without getting bored at some point .. and a lot of people already exceeded that point by far.

What we need is something that allows people to be patient without feeling that theyre waiting for ghosts, something that i just dont see right now.


So the next part is directed towards the Kronos staff

You announced that you need to align content on both servers to make a merge possible in the future.
My Conclusion from your announcement and especially from Davros comments today

We have not said that K1 server population isn't low nor have we hid the fact that the K1 population is down. We are constantly monitoring things and with our gameplan in place we're confident that we're on the right path which will end up with a healthy server, especially once K2 has AQ open. Options are currently thin short term, but they significantly improve when both servers are on the same content.
is that you agree with the majority of your community that a server merge will have a positive impact on your project.
If i am right and this is the case, why dont you make it clear so that everyone understands that? All you have talked about is the "possibility" of a merge in the "future".
You act like politicians trying to make everyone happy (which is impossible) - but you are gamers, developers - people with passion for this game.
You should do whatever you think is best for the project and what is in line with your own core values.
Nobody here has really given up this project, otherwise we wouldnt be wasting our time arguing about the future of Kronos. We just want a glimpse of hope that all this turns out well in the end.

So please, share some concrete plans with the community and and give us an ETA for this.

Can we expect the War Effort on K2 to end within a reasonable time?
How long do you want to wait after the first AQ clear on K2?
Do you even think a merge is a good idea at all? Maybe you have other plans of keeping the project alive that nobody in the community came up with?

Cheers
 
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bolaski

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Apr 27, 2016
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Location
New York
#86
Naxx Specific Feedback: (from someone who led one of the only 23 US guilds that cleared retail Naxx during vanilla)

1) Please do CLOSED PTR testing only. Set up specific times, and allow people to sign up to participate in the test (with predetermined requirements/restrictions). This would allow you and your team to observe the testing at a time of your choice, while not putting guild leaders in the awkward position of having to force their players into participating in an OPEN test against their will. It's not a matter of being lazy and not wanting to go on a PTR--no, it's a matter of Naxxramas being that super awesome raid that most people never got to see, and they don't want that "mystique" ruined by PTR testing everything ahead of time.

2) Find a way to give us a Blizzlike Naxx progression experience, even if it means buffing hp/damage. I would much rather know that the hp values aren't blizzlike and have an encounter that is actually challenging, than a blizzlike one that is a complete pushover like nearly every boss in MC, BWL, and AQ40 have been. I don't want to see Heigan die in only one dance phase. I don't want to see Patchwerk die 4 minutes before berserk the first time we fight him (which is something most guilds wiped to the first few weeks after retail Naxx launch). Give us a well-scripted, challenging experience that will be memorable, and you won't regret it.

3) Launch all wings at once. I don't care if it takes an extra month, or an extra 6 months of development. If you stagger it wing-by-wing, that's completely un-blizzlike, and a deal breaker for me. I'm not interested in participating in that sort of Naxx, sorry. Shouldn't even be up for debate...
I agree with Shard on doing Closed PTR testing with set schedules to gather information, but please don't scale these encounters based off top Guilds Raid DPS/Healing. Remember that there will be other Guilds in Naxxramas that arn't as hardcore as Risen and would also like a chance to clear the content. If clearing Spider Wing means having everyone flasked and in full AQ40 gear then it's already not Blizzlike. The Feenix Community had a 15-20% buff in Molten Core and all new starting Guilds had to flask for Lucifron because dungeon gear wasn't enough to clear MC. If you are going to Cator to the Top Guilds on Kronos then don't expect any new Guilds to form anytime soon.
 
Joined
Jul 22, 2015
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#87
Many of us, like you, have our own story about personal projects that we dedicated a tremendous amount of time to. I won't get into the details of my own, but it's very similar to your story. What I'm getting at is that we understand the level of dedication that you and the rest of the Kronos Team have for this project. I don't think any of us would say that the team isn't dedicated, or that you don't care.

I think perhaps the criticism is being taken in a way that it isn't intended.

Comments like "RIP Kronos" have very little to do with the perceived dedication of the team. It has to do with issues like these:

1. The lack of acknowledgement of the issues we're facing. You state now that there has never been anyone who said the population isn't declining, etc. The problem is, on the podcast that was done a few weeks ago, Gurky specifically stated that there is not a perceived problem with the population on K1 among the admin team. Maybe he wasn't authorized to speak on behalf of the team, but he did, and a lot of people heard it. Instead of correcting him, you guys had the VOD of the podcast taken down, and then said that the community was misrepresenting the statements made in the podcast. There has also been no acknowledgement of the severity of the network issues up until incredibly recently. This leads to point #2.

2. A lack of transparency and communications. Up until recently, there has been very little transparency about the state of the project, issues, development work, etc. I realize that a lot of your time as a team is spent actually doing the work, but if you don't communicate, then the players have no clue that anything is actually happening.. until changes are stealth-implemented and we figure them out on our own.

3. There is an apparent lack of staffing resources to run this project in the way that you would probably like to, or that would be best for the community. Maybe it's because you don't trust "random players" with the power that comes with these roles, maybe it's because you don't have people offering their help, or maybe it's because you're not looking hard enough. Whatever it is, it's a serious issue.

It appears that you don't have a single person on the admin team with a networking background who could help understand the lag that is affecting so many players.

The GM presence seems to be more focused on K2 than K1. Tickets continue to take longer and longer to get a response, even though the player base is getting smaller and smaller.

Forum presence and in-game presence from the admin team (up until recently) has been virtually non-existent.

The "customer service" aspect of Kronos has gotten worse over time due to your lack of resources (no more help with raid loot unless it's due to loot not dropping or a major bug).

You need structured, well staffed, and well articulated roles so that players know who to go to when they have a specific issue.


4. A lack of population on K1. Berni summed it up pretty good with just 1 sentence : "it bothers me deeply that we are not seeing fresh blood on K1 because people are forced to choose between a server that is thriving and a server that is dwindling."




The announcement that Chero made starts to address issues 1 and 2, but really doesn't address 3 or 4. These are the issues that I think about when I hear or say "RIP Kronos". It is not that I don't think you or anyone else on the team lacks dedication. It is that I don't think things are headed in the right direction and I don't seem to be hearing anything to make me think otherwise.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2015
Likes
19
#88
So with everything being on the table and Naxx scheduled for the new year, there is one possibility that a merge could take place before the release of Naxx.
A big big + for this option. And especially if they get blizzlike war effort (the way we had it on K1 was a bit too long and at some point it looked like it will never come to an end). That way the possible merge might be in 2-3-4 months and I'm sure noone minds Naxx being "postponed" a bit if needed. The postponed time can be easily used for polishing it, PTR testing even and ofc usual bug fixing.

Also - make warlock summons lvl20 again so the players who couldnt benefit from x7 are not in a disadvantage.
 
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galfior

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#90
You guys voting for Naxx "wing by wing" release...
You do realise that if it happens, it means a closer release and that it could lead to K1 not merging with K2 because we won't be on the same progression again?
 
Joined
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#91
Just want to leave a big thumbs up for Cheero and every GM on the team for the continued work here on this project. You guys are doing a great job, please don't get your heads down for doomsayers! I'm not playing currently because I have lot of RL stuff to do ATM, but I'll be creating a character here soon.

And nice text Davros! :smile:

EDIT: I guess this is a stupid question, but "our development team will turn their attentions to The Burning Crusade" means Cheero will join Ares team right? It doesn't make sense to start a new TBC project when Twinstar has one already.
 
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Oidd

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#92
You guys voting for Naxx "wing by wing" release...
You do realise that if it happens, it means a closer release and that it could lead to K1 not merging with K2 because we won't be on the same progression again?
You guys voting for Naxx "all at once" release...
You do realise that if it happens, it means it will be cleared in a matter of days/weeks and then there will be no more content and hardcore raiders will start to leave server?

they can just delay the release till k2 catches up.....and then release wing by wing to prolong the serve's raiding timeline
 
Last edited:
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#93
You guys voting for Naxx "all at once" release...
You do realise that if it happens, it means it will be cleared in a matter of days/weeks and then there will be no more content and hardcore raiders will start to leave server?

they can just delay the release till k2 catches up.....and then release wing by wing to prolong the serve's raiding timeline
Well that's a good point, but then it has to be clarified that Naxxramas shouldn't be opened at all untill K1 merges with K2.
 

areczq

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#94
So with everything being on the table and Naxx scheduled for the new year, there is one possibility that a merge could take place before the release of Naxx.
Are there any disadvantages of such a step?
Lets hold on with releasing any new content on K1, and wait untill K2 will catch up K1 - then merge. After marge prepare to release NAXX on one big, healthy server. Is someone doesn't agree with this can say why?

I think most of us would agree, that now a merge is not possible or at least not good. The content on both servers must be equal. But what is wrong with the merge when K2 catch up K1?
What speaks for maintaining both servers?
I would be very happy if I knew how you admins / devs / GM see the situation with population and whether you want to have two servers in its present state or one migrated.


NAXX isn't nothing attractive for new players even if NAXX release will be tomorrow. Why? It is very simple. It will be just out of reach. Leveling from 1 to 60 lvl is about 2-3 months. Then you must face with MC > BWL > AQ and maybe ZG somwhere in the middle. Lets add to this current low population on K1 and problems with finding players to raid. Regarding above, I think 8-10 months is real time to see NAXX gates for new players. But all of this is true if NAXX release will be tomorrow.


You act like politicians trying to make everyone happy (which is impossible)
True.
 
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Cmx

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#95
combine power and effort with tbc devs, screw naxx, and release the best tbc server like BOMB.
 
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#96
K1 is currently declining...after new nost it will decline exponentially. Even the players who would rather stay on Kronos will probably leave for the new server simply because they can't raid on Kronos anymore.

But on the bright side, someone on k2 will get a bug mount
 

Grifinger

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#97
1. The lack of acknowledgement of the issues we're facing. You state now that there has never been anyone who said the population isn't declining, etc. The problem is, on the podcast that was done a few weeks ago, Gurky specifically stated that there is not a perceived problem with the population on K1 among the admin team. Maybe he wasn't authorized to speak on behalf of the team, but he did, and a lot of people heard it. Instead of correcting him, you guys had the VOD of the podcast taken down, and then said that the community was misrepresenting the statements made in the podcast. There has also been no acknowledgement of the severity of the network issues up until incredibly recently. This leads to point
Just to confirm, the podcast was not taken down on purpose, but was actually due to a "minor" issue (fuckup) on my end in forgetting to enable the VOD saving, and also not recording it. Oops. :p
 
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#98
Just to confirm, the podcast was not taken down on purpose, but was actually due to a "minor" issue (fuckup) on my end in forgetting to enable the VOD saving, and also not recording it. Oops. :p
I can accept and appreciate that, but here's the thing.. Why wait until now to admit that? This is what I'm talking about with the lack of transparency. Make a forum post explaining that you fucked up, and ask if anyone has questions / needs clarification on anything that was discussed. Saying that we misrepresented the ideas that were discussed on the podcast, is really just throwing mud at the people who listened to it and then posted here on the forums to share with the community.
 

Slippy

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87
#99
So I went and checked out K2. I joined this big ass levelling guild and you know what they were talking about? Nost. This guild had 400+ members and they were basically saying the purpose of the guild was to get a core and then move over to Nost once it releases. They were killing time until the move.

All this discussion of Naxx is pointless. How the hell is K1 supposed to last even the next 2 months? Never mind talk like "Lets delay Naxx so that it can be released at once!" Are we playing on the same server? The other place isn't even released yet and this is what it's like. K1 needs action taken and it needs it now.

Someone mentioned earlier claiming that we were being shortsighted. It's the complete opposite. We are the ones thinking long term. It doesn't take a crystal ball to see what the future of Kronos is going to look like if nothing changes.
 

galfior

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Yeah all this to make one guy happy with bug mount on K2...

Anyway meanwhile we still don't know if the aq war effort will be blizzlike or not. Right now people are expecting a merge in 2 months (even thought i agree there might be nothing to save in 2 months) but there is a big chance it will actually be 6 months or more if it is like on K1...
Everyday i ask the question this thread and the staff just ignores it... I guess that means it won't be blizzlike /sigh
 
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