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The Question of Naxxramas Difficulty Vol. 2

Which changes would you like to see for Naxxramas in the foreseeable future?

  • Re-introduce world buffs and remove Buffed Stats from monsters

    Votes: 73 21.0%
  • Re-introduce world buffs and keep Buffed Stats on monsters

    Votes: 20 5.8%
  • Don't re-introduce world buffs and remove Buffed Stats from monsters

    Votes: 91 26.2%
  • Keep it as it is at the moment

    Votes: 163 47.0%

  • Total voters
    347
  • Poll closed .
its not about nerfing anything. ive never made that argument.

if patchwerk in 2006 had 10 million hit points and hateful strike'd for 50k damage then that is what kronos should emulate.
if kelthuzad aggro wiped only the main tank when he mind controlled then that is what kronos should emulate.
if sapphirons aura ticked for 1000 damage that is what kronos should emulate.

if patchwerk in 2006 had 1 million hit points and hateful strike'd for 5k damage then that is what kronos should emulate.
if kelthuzad never aggro wiped when he mind controlled then that is what kronos should emulate.
if sapphirons aura ticked for 100 damage that is what kronos should emulate.

i have spelled out the argument since the start. when nostalrius vs kronos war launched in march 2015, this forum, wowservers reddit and the private server community in general were in a which server is more blizzlike war. i was sold on kronos. in the final hour there was a sudden shift to be on the same boat as vanillagaming, feeix, etc... by modifying numbers to the whims of the devs. kronos has shifted its policy.

how is this a hard argument to understand?
 
Because it's not an argument at all. It's an opinion. I understand what you like. You are not (at all) answering, why this should be preferrable here at the final raid of Classic World of Warcraft.

You are merely repeating that you would blindly advocate for "blizzlike" stats no matter how ridiculous the ramifications would be. That's a religious amount of faith in Blizzard's old values.

Whether you explained your reasonings in the past, why this is so important to you, or not is irrelevant here. You will have to make the arguments again or refer to those from the past. Because here you are not at all explaining why this is important to you.

And let's not forget that Kronos deviates from the blizzlike paradigm enough of the times.

- Respec costs

- Caster LoS

- Warlock summoning

You seem to conveniently forget about those aspects, when you educate me about "the framework which kronos used to abide by". I have played before Kronos II launched, my guild's voice counts as much as yours. In fact, my entire original guild quit the server before Elysium, because they felt AQ40 was too easy. Where were your complaints when everything was patched to 1.12 values all along? Where were your complaints when C'Thun was not blizzlike the first months, which made him allegedly impossible to beat?

My apologies if you were this upset through all those former counts, but you are full of shit when you say that you want stuff nerfed now because of the blizzlike argument, unless you point out to me your outrage from the past on all these other counts. You are just using this as an excuse (and I grant you that you are an advocate of blizzlike stats and always were) to get an easier "loot pinada".

Right now, your guild is the vocal minority, unless you can get another guild's GM to voice their support in this thread.
 
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respec cost and caster LoS were modified to entice pvp and keep the raiding community available to pvp. these changes i will grant are not blizzlike and never have been and are almost why i wouldve chosen nostalrius over kronos. the warlock summoning was changed in response to vanguard dominating world bosses in the midlife of kronos.

for the record i was against any changes away from blizzlike, despite people whining about vanguards warlock summons.

the server started under these presuppositions including being a patch 1.12 server. that was agreed upon and known upon creating a character here and everything that comes with 1.12 including the inability to activate TOEP and ZHC at the same time, final version stats of dungeon gear, the release of dire maul, the talent revamps, etc... the fact that the server is 1.12 does not invalidate any argument or opinion i hold.

the population used to thrive on the mantra of being the most accurate representation of classic wow to ever be on the vanilla server scene, and for a time that was true.

again, you may not agree with and you may lazily manipulate my words (claiming im a proud main tank) but i have always articulated my exact stance and i believe this is what kronos used to be on the same page with in regards to everything related to pve. this is why the bug tracker requires definitive 2005-2006 objective proof and not just anecdotal truth and claims. the rigorous commitment on the bug tracker to reach as close to perfect emulation as possible reflects this principle.
 
respec cost and caster LoS were modified to entice pvp and keep the raiding community available to pvp. these changes i will grant are not blizzlike and never have been and are almost why i wouldve chosen nostalrius over kronos. the warlock summoning was changed in response to vanguard dominating world bosses in the midlife of kronos.

And the reasoning is that this topic warrants an exception, as well.

for the record i was against any changes away from blizzlike, despite people whining about vanguards warlock summons.

I'll grant you that. If you didn't, that would be quite hypocritical.

the population used to thrive on the mantra of being the most accurate representation of classic wow to ever be on the vanilla server scene, and for a time that was true.

It wasn't, though. You said it yourself, you almost chose Nostalrius. They tried to represent the entire time line. I guess they have their exceptions as well, but I don't see how we can possibly make this huge claim.

Kronos always followed the mantra (and I can quote GM responses for that), that if the community prefers something heavily, they would listen to them. That is why the LoS thing is in place - due to a vote apparently. I disagree with that decision as well, but I don't go complain about it every day to the GMs until they cave in ad nauseam.

And here, sorry bud, it's only you that is so heavily advocating for sticking to the "blizzlike" stigma. Most other guilds... at least for now... seem to prefer this as voiced by the GMs representing their horde guilds in this thread (Pipfugl, Fried. Wasn't someone from Friends commenting as well?).

Why don't you just postpone Sapph for 2-4 weeks? Maybe there will be a nerf (God, I hope not) and your gear will self-nerf the fight. It's probably the biggest self-nerfing fight in World of Warcraft. You can never unnerf something once nerfed. And frankly, the entire server seems outraged about the idea of introducing world buffs for Naxxramas.

But Kronos was never about sticking to the blizzlike religion blindly.

again, you may not agree with and you may lazily manipulate my words (claiming im a proud main tank)

Why are you still so upset about this? "You tanking" meant your guild tanking because you sent me a warrior PoV at very high HP while implying the video was from your channel ("as well"). I never even watched the video, I am sorry that you misunderstood what I weas trying to say and are so upset about this. There is enough other shit to be upset about, let's stick to the point.
 
i agree with sticking to the points, i never make ad hominem attacks and although youve gone back and edited the bs out of your posts you opened the salvos making this into some sort of misconceived personal vendetta.

were just not going to agree and thats fine, as i have said. you cannot argue against my logic although you may disagree on a matter of opinion. just understand i have in the past been advocates of buffing undetuned weak mechanics because they were not properly blizzlike and shouldve been stronger. but not because i wanted them stronger, but because it wouldve blizzlike. same goes for the reverse. you can call it religious, i dont care. thats not even derogatory term. you can even call it ideological. the proper term is its principled and not subjective. its an objective statement and a standard. if arguing for the standard makes me a bad guy then thats fine as well. i can handle it.
 
Got it, no arguments other than "muh blizzlike". So it's really just your opinion as a guild vs. the rest of the faction when it comes to not buffing the challenging bosses... heck you don't want anything to be buffed. Your religion has no room for compromise.

Gz on countering the Anub Rekhan buffs btw ;) Maybe now you will wipe less at that. I am starting to see what you meant by "it took awhile to systematize aq40".

just understand i have in the past been advocates of buffing undetuned weak mechanics because they were not properly blizzlike

Yep, it's fine by you as long as it does not mean it's difficult content where you have to wipe and fight the actual mechanics. "systematizing the game" á la ONSLAUGHT.

if arguing for the standard makes me a bad guy then thats fine as well.

Arguing for the standard wouldn't. Only doing it to this extent whenever it suits you does. You are effectively holding the admins hostage by complaining about it over and over again and over-representing what you perceive as a problem. Now you got your vote and NedStark will not hesitate to deceive and you will not hesitate to try and bend the results of a questionable poll to your favor. And once pointed out that you are the only guild wanting a heavy Naxxramas nerf, you fucking flip-flop and make it a matter of principle and no longer a matter of popularity.

What is to stop you from brigading this vote?

edit (before you freak out again, i am being sarcastic. In case this is not obvious)
 
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@Topic:
Please keep world buffs out of Naxx, don't nerf bosses. They are all perfectly killable in their current state and will become significantly easier with gear progression anyway. I don't mind the current state of trash mobs either but if you need to nerf anything then stick to the trash only please.

Regarding the direction this topic has taken:
While I personally disagree with Fei's opinion of sticking to exact blizzlike values I don't see any reason for personal attacks against him. He has voiced the same opinion since the discussion about Naxx difficulty started and stuck to it ever since. He is entitled to his opinion even if it differs from other opinions in this thread.
 
I'm way late to the party, so don't even know how many people are going to read this, but...

There is no way to make everyone happy in this situation, and each person's opinion is valid based on their own experiences. Some of you guys are running in guilds from old k1, farming AQ40 for probably a year now, and have raids filled with 40 players that are BIS and very good at their respective classes. On the other side, there are guilds like Obsolete who haven't been farming the old content for that long, and lack the same level of gear that more established guilds do. For instance, we went 6 months straight without ever seeing a Tear or DFT drop, we've still NEVER seen a Femur or twinemps off-hand, and as is such I'm not sure if we have a single player that's BIS. Of course our experiences of this new content are going to be different, there is no way they wouldn't be given the massive discrepancy in gear.

All that being said, I don't want to see bosses nerfed but i DEFINITELY don't want to see content buffed any further either (to whoever said they wanted a 50% health buff and 30% damage buff to Maexxna - no thank you). I think disabling world buffs was a good idea, and enjoy not having to waste an hour and a half before every raid summoning people all across both continents. But the trash does suck, a lot, and could use a nerf down to it's normal levels.

I don't want welfare epics, but I do think that something should be done to get the price of consumes down to a more reasonable level. I had over 1000g before Naxx opened, and I currently have less than 100g. I think the cost of raiding right now is probably one of the biggest contributing factors to players getting burnt out, and i can't see 40 players from the less-skilled guilds being able to keep going at this rate for several more months until we're 15/15 like the better guilds.
 
All that being said, I don't want to see bosses nerfed but i DEFINITELY don't want to see content buffed any further either (to whoever said they wanted a 50% health buff and 30% damage buff to Maexxna - no thank you).

I can see where you are coming from. But fights have been made easier already than they were, when Naxx released. I don't know if the changes are live, yet. But Thaddius, Patchwerk, Loatheb, Anub'Rekhan and Razuvious have been adjusted to the original armor values, removing more than 20% of their armor. That is very significant. People implied that trash mobs tend to have higher values now.

Of course, giving Maexxna a damage buff must have been sarcastic, her damage is buffed quite brutally. If anything, I'd lower her damage buff very slightly (I am not actually suggesting this). The complaint some have with Maexxna is that you get to down her to 0% inbetween Web Spray cool-downs, avoiding a really fun mechanic, where Maexxna enrages and the raid gets cc'd.

The people asking for buffs are not masochists that hate themselves. I for one want a challenge. Last raid we lost all three tanks to autism during Thaddius and he was still killed in a straightforward fashion. And now he is even easier.

About the consumables, this is a blizzlike Naxx experience. Guilds back then struggled with the same thing. I see guilds like Wipe Club doing a really good job in not burning themselves out. IMO guilds used far too many consumes before they were needed.

https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?issue=11522
https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?issue=11521
https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?issue=11523
https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?issue=11520
https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?issue=11519

I would say it is a far more reasonable request to buff some very special aspects (not Maexxna's tank damage) of some few bosses (like many have been asking) compared to nerfing everything without exceptions to the blizzlike values ONSLAUGHT has been advocating for.

Why did we even have Chero script Ragnaros' submerge mechanic, when nobody on the entirety of K2 has ever seen it happen. Have you?
 
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Why did we even have Chero script Ragnaros' submerge mechanic, when nobody on the entirety of K2 has ever seen it happen. Have you?

You should go run MC with Hangin with my Gnomies or Thunder Downunder - they still see the submerge mechanic weekly. ;-)
In all serious, i totally understand your perspective, that's why i said there is no way to please everyone. But there are a number of guilds that actually do struggle with earlier content, but then again if you can't get Rag down before submerge i think we can all agree you don't have any business stepping foot inside naxx yet.
 
Yo guys, Cymbeline from Lost in Sauce here. Our guild is having a great time clearing Naxx, have not really come across a problem except for clearing already killed content to make room for the later half, but that will come with time/gear. World buffs for naxx is a horrible idea, just a waste of time. As for consumes, the rng factor to plaguebloon takes a huge weight off most of our raiders shoulders (at least for me, where my herber gets shit on by alliance everywhere I camp:^]). Trash damage is high, but overall we get better every week with little to no deaths on trash aside from full on wipes. One big thing i'd like to comment on is bring back ACTUAL HP VALUES, not percentages, knowing how much hp an opponent has, pve or pvp is huge imho. Hmm what else, almost all our raiders aren't even close to bis, 7/15 and hoping for 9/15 this weekend. Personally, i never rauded naxx in vanilla, same goes for most of our core, but this content is so fresh, gives actual challenge and a sense of accomplishment(reminds me of killing an Old God for the first time). Guilds like us, who have not been clearing content for nearly as long as Indecisive, Agony, ONSLAUGHT, we speak in whispers about it throughout Orgrimmar, Thunder Bluff and Undercity. We didn't steamroll through that hollowed place like most other guilds, in it's current state it demands respect, nerfing it now is like spitting in my guilds face, like "You didn't clear the hardest raid in vanilla in 2 weeks? Well let's tune it down to ****** mode for ya."
 
Revert the trash. It’s a horrible annoying waste of time.

I won’t beat a dead horse about blizzlike boss values but ffs revert the trash. It’s not fun.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I play rather raid rather casually as a rogue and my guild killed quite a fee bosses in naxx. I think 7. I joined two raids up to now and I think naxx feels right. I never raided it in vanilla, but I think that I would have a similar experience in retail when going there with an at the retail vanilla times top guild of a server. What made naxx hard back in the days for most guilds, are not the values, it was the organisation and coordination. Even in my guild were we have a solid core of like 20 ppl and some other ppl come and go or not raiding every raid night like me, we can manage to kill quite some bosses. In retail vanilla this kind of setup would be a clusterfuck which barely manages to clear bwl. I was in a similar guild on retail. The “bad“ players in out guild would be considered “good“ back then. Just to point another thing out, a friend of mine raided retail naxx up to 4hm and he and his guild was considering heigan a hard boss. They had everyone watch tactic videos and so on and still fucked up sometimes. I was at heigan for the very first time recently, only heared of it and saw a video once back in the days. It was easy as hell to understand and execute the dance. Also dont forfet that the lag,delay and latency back then could cause some major problems in fights like this. May conclusion: keep bosses as they are, dont bring back world buffs, maybe tune down trash, but it is not a must. I like naxx alot in the currebt state and i am happy that i dont have to be only 1 hour earlier for world buffs. I can rather use that hour for farming consumes
 
Naxxramas is so fun in its current state, if you are gonna nerf anything I guess the trash. Personally I prefer it in its current state and especially Sapph/KT are such fun fights. If they were made easier the fun would be drastically reduced.
 
if no changes to bosses are made, at least nerf the damn trash. most seem to be in agreement of that, despite this questionable poll leaving that option out
 
You should go run MC with Hangin with my Gnomies or Thunder Downunder - they still see the submerge mechanic weekly. ;-)

You are joking, but I had the luxury to play with a hardcore, speedrunning guild in the past and now a semi-hardcore guild (not necessarily by nature, but we just gotta do with whatever players we have, which requires a lot of patience). I would much rather raid with HwmG or THC than I would raid with any of the guilds that killed KTZ. It actually gives healers something to do. People are no longer playing World of Warcraft. They are playing Realmplayers. My former guild (The Government) would easily invest many and many hours collectively to shave seconds of their holy MC time. And after a player or two died, we might as well come back next week. (The guild actually disbanded after the effects of such a wipe, followed by a bad decision, followed by a very questionable ban of the guild leader who was at holiday at that time. That's what I meant when I was talking about the bad atmosphere during ONSLAUGHT's raids that Fei perpetuated. The blame game is especially funny whenever he is wrong). Honestly, The Government did not even do speed running right. It just burnt them out the way they approached it.

Also, what is the point of logging in past killing KTZ? Having these bosses gives me a sense of not having beat the game yet. It gives me a reason to log in. I don't understand who people think they fucking are, but saying the server would lose its players due to them not being able to beat the final two bosses of the final raid. What I see is the opposite. Normal guilds, that did not burn themselves out in too long gaps without content, they are desperately trying to farm Strat again to get those slackers above 40 frost resistance. I am used to - throughout the past year - of not being able to do any public groups at all. I just gave up on finishing rep in Strat etc. Now it's easy to get into many pugs a day.

And I am not the only healer feeling this way (preferring to play in a guild that actually takes damage). Things do regularly go wrong in our runs and I absolutely love that. Those attempts, where a tank died early and we had to improvise were some of the most fun I have had in this game. My shields matter, they save people (and I make a big effort to let them know I did). It gives you a sense of you actually mattering. Making a difference.
 
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the government quit because kronos gms are fuckin retarded. They waited to ban them 2 weeks later when BWL was released so we couldnt get server first BWL not because being burnt out or cuz we wiped that speed run..... they made the right fuckin decision cuz this server is fucking retarded and the gms are fuckin clueless i should of fuckin quit then too instead of spending every waking fuckin minute farming consumes for a fucking dumb ass overtuned shit raid. Meets dumbass will realize this when he gets to sapphiron and KT and he has fuckin titans every raid member to even have a chance at killing it everyweek
 
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the government quit because kronos gms are fuckin retarded. They waited to ban them 2 weeks later when BWL was released so we couldnt get server first BWL not because being burnt out or cuz we wiped that speed run..... they made the right fuckin decision cuz this server is fucking retarded and the gms are fuckin clueless i should of fuckin quit then too instead of spending every waking fuckin minute farming consumes for a fucking dumb ass overtuned shit raid. Meets dumbass will realize this when he gets to sapphiron and KT and he has fuckin titans every raid member to even have a chance at killing it everyweek

Writing "should of" and calling other people retarded in the same post is a bit rich, don't you think?
 
the government quit because kronos gms are fuckin retarded. They waited to ban them 2 weeks later when BWL was released so we couldnt get server first BWL not because being burnt out or cuz we wiped that speed run..... they made the right fuckin decision cuz this server is fucking retarded and the gms are fuckin clueless i should of fuckin quit then too instead of spending every waking fuckin minute farming consumes for a fucking dumb ass overtuned shit raid. Meets dumbass will realize this when he gets to sapphiron and KT and he has fuckin titans every raid member to even have a chance at killing it everyweek

Its fucking hilarious reading this from a player previously going for server first claiming that sapph and KT are currently overtuned. You gotta have some serious disconnect considering yourself a good enough player to claim a server first and at the same time complain that a perfectly killable boss (the last two in the expansion for that matter) is overtuned.
 
Custom damage is fundamentally frustrating to die to. It's double frustrating to be forced to flask your entire raid due to custom damage. How many titans flasks do you think most guilds have banked? What do you think will happen when people start running out?

Blizzlike dmg Naxx would have been plenty challenging as evidenced by Anathema. Shard was shouting from the rooftops that blizzlike would be too easy and too many guilds would clear in a month. It's been 2 months now and only 7 guilds have killed KT with blizzlike values. 2 of those have only killed KT 1x and wont kill him this week.

This custom damage horseshit will harshly accelerate people quitting this server. All so 3 guilds could have a challenge at the expense of everyone else.
 
Custom damage is fundamentally frustrating to die to. It's double frustrating to be forced to flask your entire raid due to custom damage. How many titans flasks do you think most guilds have banked? What do you think will happen when people start running out?

People that are interested and actively trying to progress and be good should have at least 25 personally.
 
It's been 2 months now and only 7 guilds have killed KT with blizzlike values. 2 of those have only killed KT 1x and wont kill him this week. This custom damage horseshit will harshly accelerate people quitting this server.

It's been only 3 weeks from Kronos release, and already 4 guilds have killed him with increased values, more than half than there in 2 months, taking into account the increased difficulty. Oh, and several other guilds have been very close to killing him. So, what is your point? I don't see people quitting because of that.
 
And what 4 guilds are that? Oh yeah the ones shouting from the rooftops for buffs because they had full bis and an insane stockpile of consumes. So we buffed the crap out of content to appease those 4 guilds and they blew through it anyways. Meanwhile back in reality the regular folks are going to run out of flasks in a month or so, not to mention keeping up with using 20+ protection pots a week at a minimum.

Again, its fundamentally an extra level of frustration to be wiping or using 2 flasks extra a week because of CUSTOM damage. Lets see how healthy the server is in a month. I was right about Naxx being plenty difficult even if blizzlike, but no you HAD to buff the damage.

How many guilds killed Sapphiron this week after blizzard was buffed? One?
 
In other words , I don't have enough gold so nerf everything then I can use less?
 
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