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Other unwanted class/spec in raids?

Fatra

New Member
Joined
Nov 10, 2014
Hello, i remember playing Hunter here on Kronos. I was forced to go Makrsmanship spec, unless i could not attend raids. So were there any more worthless classes/specs for PVE?
For instance is it possible to tank with feral druid or only one allowed tanking is warrior?
Thanks.
 
In most 5-mans that you do during leveling, even a hunter pet could do a decent job at tanking, let alone druid or paladin. But for everything more serious than BRD, it's a no-no.
 
All specs are viable, but some of them are limited. For example, i've never seen more than one balance or feral druid in raid. Mostly because it's much harder to gear him up. Your hunter example is because, as hunter - You can't go beastmaster, because your pet dies.. a lot in raids. And survival don't do as much dmg as marksman. So marksman is the best choise for PvE.
 
In most 5-mans that you do during leveling, even a hunter pet could do a decent job at tanking, let alone druid or paladin. But for everything more serious than BRD, it's a no-no.
Eh ferals are ok for all dungeons, raids are where they begin to fall off.
 
Right/Wrong.
MM is superior to Survival until you reach a certain amount of agility (400~) after that survival beats it.
This means early game -> MM
Late game -> Survival
 
Well, in a perfect raid setup you would still be expected to be MM, as survival might deal a percent more individual damage with adequete gear, but placing you in a group with 3 rogues and a fury warrior for Trueshot Aura will end up boosting the raid DPS by a lot more and it would benefit the entire raid far greater than the few extra percents of damage you would be pulling on your own. Hardcore endgame guilds usually don't want their hunters to go with survival because of this reason.

Also don't know how it's here, but on Warsong hunters still dealt more damage as MM even when in T3 gear when comparing to Survival (Yes I had all the best consumables and I was on the best available rotation when I tested it for myself - I'm a min-maxer, so I always conduct these experiments for the best available damage output).

If you manage to keep your pet alive at all times, then the best spec is actually 20 / 31 / 0 with Lupus or ZG raptor. Outperforms survival and regular MM. The pet does a considerable amount of damage. just have to keep an eye on it at all times.

Also other class/spec combos, which are a joke in raids are:
1) Assassination rogue - great burst damage for 20 seconds, but sustained damage is crap end up dealing 2x less damage than combat-swords rogues.
2) Feral druid, outperformed by every melee class in comparable gear in vanilla. 16 debuff slots kick the bleed effects out.
3) Subtetly rogue - some might argue that 1 sub rogue is ok, as hemo boosts raid melee damage, but it actually isn't noticable and having a combat-swords rogue comes out roughly the same if you look at the raid DPS.
4) Ret paladins - are a joke, but a geared & skilled ret paladin can actually deal decent damage in naxx for the lols due to the undead nature of the instance, but he has to make sure he stays on adequete mana levels and spams all consumables (Watch youtube videos), but you would still be better off with a geared mage/lock/fury when talking naxx gear.
5) Prot paladins - useless in vanilla, they can manage to tank patchwerk for the lols due to the undead nature of Naxxramas, but a warrior can still do a better job (watch youtube videos)
6) Enchancement shamans - Their DPS sucks, the totems buffs provided to other melees aren't worth the DPS lost on the individual shaman. Some might argue that having one with nightfall would boost DPS, but in reality the 16 debuff slots and nightfall not procing as much on a fixed server kills the boost, better to just have another awesome DPSer
7) Elemental shamans - still suck compared to a warlock/mage and go OOM fast, no sustained DPS
8) Demo locks - in theory manage to pull decent DPS, but still crappier than having an awesome destro lock
9) Balance druids - go OOM in 45 seconds
10) Fire mages in MC/BWL - mobs have great fire resistance levels
11) Arms warriors - Back in vanilla when theorycrafting wasn't popular it was believed that having one in raid is ok, but his DPS still sucks compared to having a decent fury or another good DPS class.
12) BM hunters - hunters didn't really excel when it came to dealing damage anyway. I mean a skilled hunter could pull decent DPS, but a mage/warlock/fury of comparable skill level would still easily outperform a hunter. The grim truth is that hunters were mostly only taken along for tranq shot / kiting / pulling to tank purposes. And they were always placed in melee DPS groups for Trueshot aura to make some extra use of them.
13) affliction locks - might have been ok at MC level, but a destro lock or SM/ruin could still outperform an affliction lock.

That's all that comes to mind right now.

Unfortunately it's pretty linear, key player classes in ~Naxx gear are:
1) Warlocks (greatest potential damage output)
2) Mages (2nd closest)
3) Furys in adequete gear (easily outperfrom rogues in comparable gear once in Naxx)
These 3 classes are the core DPSers, I'd go as far to say that having your raid consist only of the first 2 would maximise raid damage and give the best peroformance overall.
4) Prot warriors for tanking
5) Holy/disc priests
6) Holy paladins / resto shamans
7) Resto druids
8) minimum amount of MM hunters necessary for an encounter
9) minimum amount of combat rogues necassary for an encounter (combat rogues were comparable to fury damage up until BWL , but after around AQ40 a skilled fury can outperform a rogue of equal skill & gear, gets even worse at naxx levels.)

This is your perfect raid setup unfortunately, so it does get a bit dull and linear in vanilla. In a perfect raid your damagedealers would consist only of mages & warlocks to maximise damage output :p
 
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if you talking about zg raptors and lupos ,it looks like pets arent normalized on warsong, huh... the best you can tame and use in raids, is wolf on passive and binded howl. Survival should be better when you reach agi above 400,so theres something wrong on warsong aswell.
 
Can anyone comment on mages? I specifically would like to know, how "bad" is it playing a fire mage till lvl 60 and beyond, because fire is a more dominant element of nature for me :)
 
Can anyone comment on mages? I specifically would like to know, how "bad" is it playing a fire mage till lvl 60 and beyond, because fire is a more dominant element of nature for me :)

Fire mages are actually pretty awesome with rolling ignites, can potentially top damage meters 24/7 once in AQ40. Problem is that in the first two 40man raiding instances fire is useless. As mobs & bosses in both MC & BWL (& even Onyxia?) have high fire resistances, so you would still be forced to go with frost (you could still go with fire in ZG & AQ20 though). But once you get to AQ40 and naxx, then fire with rolling ignites and destro locks are the best available dpsers. A skilled fire mage can always be #1 damagedealer on meter
 
Can anyone comment on mages? I specifically would like to know, how "bad" is it playing a fire mage till lvl 60 and beyond, because fire is a more dominant element of nature for me :)
While leveling fire mage is pretty fun as you tend to kill mobs before they reach you but probably inferior to frost due to higher mana cost and less survivability. I still play fire when leveling, simply because it's more fun.

On 60, fire is absolutely unplayable in the Blackrock instances except for most of BRD (BRD,UBRS,LBRS,MC,BWL), due to the high fire resistance of many mobs. But as soon as fire becomes viable in non-blackrock instances it becomes superior damage wise to frost. (except for very drawn out encounterse as frost is still more mana efficient iirc.)
 
if you talking about zg raptors and lupos ,it looks like pets arent normalized on warsong, huh... the best you can tame and use in raids, is wolf on passive and binded howl. Survival should be better when you reach agi above 400,so theres something wrong on warsong aswell.

nah, they finally normalized the DPS. But to squeeze the extra few % of top DPS out you have to have a set of macros to control your pet and keep an eye on it all the time, as if the pet dies then you will lose ~30% of your DPS. But it's rather fun and challenging. I like it. Need to follow your perfect rotation, keep an eye on your surroundings, keep an eye on your pet and control your pet with macros to keep it safe (out of aoe, command it back when melee has to run away from boss etc happens every 20 secodns on some encounters.) and to maximize it's damage.

I was able to pull 700-800 DPS and even come top 4-6 most tank & spank bosses(even naxx bosses. Always having scrolls, foods and jujus on pet and myself. pet also gains extra buff from warrior shouts and totems etc.(I've got a folder of screenshots to boast).
 
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6) Enchancement shamans - Their DPS sucks, the totems buffs provided to other melees aren't worth the DPS lost on the individual shaman. Some might argue that having one with nightfall would boost DPS, but in reality the 16 debuff slots and nightfall not procing as much on a fixed server kills the boost, better to just have another awesome DPSer

I agree with everything you said except this. Having 1 in raid is a nice boost for the raid just like 1 SP in Warlock group(which you forgot including :p). Totemtwisting is a pretty nice boost.
 
Shadow Priests aren't brought to raids very much because they do subpar damage compared to other ranged dps, and they go oom quickly. Some guilds however bring 1 skilled shadow priest for extra ultility and to help buff the damage of warlocks.
 
Problem is, that a properly functioning 16 debuff slot limit affects shadow priest gameplay as it knocks some important SP shit off the table as far as I can remember (not 100% sure though, can't remember - haven't seen it in action for a long time.)

The greatest challenge is talking all the furys in on respeccing out of deep wounds as that seriously tampers with the debuff slots and wastes & fucks around with the performance. most good furys are min-maxers, so every single DPS counts to them to feed their ego staring at the meters :)
 
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This discussion is so boring in my opinion.

Play what you want - have fun.

That´s all. :smile:
 
16 debuff slot is working here and yes, spells are in 3 categories of importance and all SP debuffs are in 2nd and 3rd category (rewritable by first).
 
Well even Nihilum used one shadow priest, remember Muqq? The problem is mana management and debufff slots. Shadow weaving is good for warlocks and for the priest itself but Shadow Word: Pain and Mindflay will use 2 debuff slots if you don't consider Vampiric embrace.

Considering you can clear almost all content (from MC till Aq40 maybe) with only 35 players you could have some boomkin/retardin/shadow pedophile/cat/bear in raid just for fun and diversity. Hey we are in 21st century, no room for discrimination, right? :p
 
Actually you dont need a "shadowpriest" for weaving. Just stick with mix spec and 20 points in shadow and you are good to go. Throw a mindblast in between heals and the debuff stays up.
 
Actually you dont need a "shadowpriest" for weaving. Just stick with mix spec and 20 points in shadow and you are good to go. Throw a mindblast in between heals and the debuff stays up.

Actually a shadowpriest can do decent damage if they know a proper mana efficent rotation, but also know how to gear their characters up. In MC/BWL tiers, shadow/spell damage and MP5 are key to shadowpriest dps and they can easily fight with mages and warlocks on meters.
At later tiers due to increased manapool from gear they can ditch MP5 for more damage. They will be dropping abit on meters, mainly because other casters + warriors gain better gear and better burst and shadowpriest damage is 95% sustain. That plus the weaving is why pretty much all guilds use a Shadowpriest in whole vanilla raid timeline.

I'm one of the founders of Realmplayers and we introduced raidstats to log raids similar to what retails guilds do with worldoflogs.
These are the logs of my old guild. If you see in most of our raids, our shadowpriest can easily compete with other casters (in March/April we had a new shadowpriest whom lacked gear so thats why he is low there):
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidList.aspx?Realm=ED&Guild=Team Plague

PS: Hope to bring Realmplayers to Kronos aswell, unless they have something else they want to use for their own server.
 
I never said that shadows can't compete with others. I played one myself and did quite well with it.
My only statement was that you don't necessarily need to be shadow if your only goal is the weaving debuff.

As alliance with JoW mana shouldn't be much of a problem either.
 
A skilled fire mage can always be #1 damagedealer on meter

Isn't it only the first mage who procs the ignite who gets the ever-increasing damage from it? Maybe it was some bizarre bug on warsong, but I recall we could let one mage proc ignite and die, let tank pick up aggro and for the rest of the fight all damage (and threat) from concurrent ignites would be attributed to the mage who died.

Maybe only relevant for fights like Frankriss, but the questions remains: is it only the first mage who crits that will roll on the other ignites? If so, so much for "skill".

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As alliance with JoW mana shouldn't be much of a problem either.

I don't know what gear levels you played on, but all warlocks in our guild fell like rocks on the meter on Patchwerk once they had to start lifetapping (GCD) instead of using runes/pots. And that is the appropriate gear level for a Patchwerk-kill while being potted to the teeth. I can only imagine it being worse for Spriests.
 
Yea, unfortunately it's just the one mage, who get lucky with the rolling ignites. That's why I said: "A (singular) skilled fire mage can always be #1 damagedealer on meter" ;)
 
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