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    TwinStar team

Welcome to the Jungle

Just don't close it tomorrow, please. We cancelled it last week because we wanted to wait for character updates. If it is not happening then we will do an old-chars run this Sunday.
 
Results of Vanguard's test:



  • Trash packs in the whole dungeon seem disconnected. They don't come as packs when one of them is pulled - they only agro additional mobs that are right next to them.
  • In bat boss area, the bat riders and their bat pets don't patrol. The humanoid mobs do patrol but they are disconnected and do not walk around in groups.
  • When fighting the bat boss, the bat adds are not spawning periodically.
  • During bat boss encounter, the flaming arrows fall on the ground and do proper AOE but I did not see any bat riders in the sky shooting them.
  • Snake boss' Holy Nova spam seems to be happening too often.
  • Gurubashi Berserkers don't seem to be using their AOE fear (https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?spell=16508) at all.
  • Bloodlord Mandokir's whirlwind ability ignores line of sight.
  • Bloodlord Mandokir seems to hit harder than he should.
  • While fighting panther boss, mob packs from outside the room agro and attack the raid. Pathing and line of sight issues.
  • I actually do not know how quickly the panther boss' Whirlwind should be cast, but right now there is no time to dodge it when you notice the whirlwind animation/emote.
  • Hakkar's platform has line of sight / pathing issues as well, people who are feared sometimes fall all the way down to lowest level.
  • Fighting Hakkar without having snake boss killed makes him spit poison twice at the same time, every 2 seconds. As far as I know, he should only spit once. Not sure about the frequency of it.
  • Hakkar's siphon spell seems to heal/damage less than it should. It was around 1k health/damage every 2 seconds.
  • Hakkar's mind control seems to remove threat of the target.
  • And the most annoying bug of them all: You get stuck in combat after fighting mobs all the time. it makes ZG a very annoying and unpleasant experience.
 
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Hagson said:
The problem with the current situation on the PTR is that older guilds are getting lots of free practice while newer guilds dont have an opportunity to try, which creates a very unbalanced PvE scene. If this is not fixed you will have one or a few guilds who will have practiced the encounters to perfection, while the other guilds see the content for the first time on release day.
Click to expand...

it is for this reason aswell why there shouldn't be any 'open' testing at all in the first place. however, it was exactly you guys who asked for open testing, so that you can, as you say, perfect your strategies. (don't even mention the 'bug testing purposes')

anyway, what this kind of open testing does, is that all progress is being made on the ptr and this is just lame shit.
i liked the BWL testing approach much better. the only problem was that there were no 'patch notes' about the fixes that were made. and before releasing it there should have been a 2nd organized test raid to see if the bug fixes the devs made worked out.
 
HBK said:
i liked the BWL testing approach much better
Click to expand...

No difference really. Everyone could see everything in that BWL test raid as well. And you can watch saved streams over and over again to figure out how certain parts work. Only way to prevent people from getting any PTR experience is to not allow anyone to do any testing at all. So if that's the case anyway, then rather allow multiple test raids by multiple guilds so more bugs can be discovered.
 
there is a big difference though between watching a stream and work out tactics through that and actual training inside the dungeon with your entire raid
 
In addition to my test report, I'd like to add that overall the dungeon seems ridiculously easy. I highly recommend increasing health of mobs and mini bosses in order to make it somewhat challenging, also I recommend increasing the amount of trash packs throughout the dungeon. Mind you that the gear we used on PTR is far inferior to the gear we have right now and will have when ZG is released on Kronos, so on live it will be even more of a faceroll if the "difficulty" of the dungeon remains the same.
 
HBK said:
it is for this reason aswell why there shouldn't be any 'open' testing at all in the first place. however, it was exactly you guys who asked for open testing, so that you can, as you say, perfect your strategies. (don't even mention the 'bug testing purposes')

anyway, what this kind of open testing does, is that all progress is being made on the ptr and this is just lame shit.
i liked the BWL testing approach much better. the only problem was that there were no 'patch notes' about the fixes that were made. and before releasing it there should have been a 2nd organized test raid to see if the bug fixes the devs made worked out.
Click to expand...

I agree with your problem picture, I too would prefer if all the progress was made on live realms.
You need PTR testing though, or lots of bugs will be unnoticed, it's a lesser evil so to speak. About the BWL system, several issues went unnoticed that would have been found if all guilds could have done their own tactics (see https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?issue=7084, or numerous other issues reported post launch).
Once you do start letting guilds onto the PTR you need to make sure it's on even ground though, and this ZG system was not. It benefits older guilds (not excluding us) by letting them practice, leaving everyone else out, granting them an even bigger disadvantage for release. I really hope AQ PTR testing will be handled better.

Overall, I think that had they copied the characters this would have been a good enough approach, with the only better option being hiring people who do not partake in PvE content here to test it for them (good luck).
 
bl4ckc0d3r said:
In addition to my test report, I'd like to add that overall the dungeon seems ridiculously easy. I highly recommend increasing health of mobs and mini bosses in order to make it somewhat challenging, also I recommend increasing the amount of trash packs throughout the dungeon. Mind you that the gear we used on PTR is far inferior to the gear we have right now and will have when ZG is released on Kronos, so on live it will be even more of a faceroll if the "difficulty" of the dungeon remains the same.
Click to expand...

I was not a part of any test raids here, but when I played on retail 9 years ago, we did ZG prior to MC with no gear and no raiding experience. So if you want it to be blizzlike, then the difficulty really should not be that hard.
 
By the way, are we expected to make separate bug reports on the tracker for all the bugs we encountered or is reporting them here fine? Also, should we expect bugs to get fixed from time to time and retest it again? Asking because we did another run today and nothing seemed to have changed.
 
After only half of ZG testing (4 bosses+trash in between), I really want to ask Peasemold and Hagson. On what server you did ZG testing? Are we all on same Kronos PTR? "Nothing hugely broken" isn't situation we found inside raid. No hard feelings, I'm not arguing/insulting/whatevertalking, but instead of doing actual test and a bit of research to help make this easier for devs, you guys made this thread into pissing contest, talking about server firsts and unfair older guild progression.
 
moljac89 said:
After only half of ZG testing (4 bosses+trash in between), I really want to ask Peasemold and Hagson. On what server you did ZG testing? Are we all on same Kronos PTR? "Nothing hugely broken" isn't situation we found inside raid. No hard feelings, I'm not arguing/insulting/whatevertalking, but instead of doing actual test and a bit of research to help make this easier for devs, you guys made this thread into pissing contest, talking about server firsts and unfair older guild progression.
Click to expand...




bl4ckc0d3r said:
Results of Vanguard's test:



  • Trash packs in the whole dungeon seem disconnected. They don't come as packs when one of them is pulled - they only agro additional mobs that are right next to them.
  • In bat boss area, the bat riders and their bat pets don't patrol. The humanoid mobs do patrol but they are disconnected and do not walk around in groups.
  • When fighting the bat boss, the bat adds are not spawning periodically.
  • During bat boss encounter, the flaming arrows fall on the ground and do proper AOE but I did not see any bat riders in the sky shooting them.
  • Snake boss' Holy Nova spam seems to be happening too often.
  • Gurubashi Berserkers don't seem to be using their AOE fear (https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?spell=16508) at all.
  • Bloodlord Mandokir's whirlwind ability ignores line of sight.
  • Bloodlord Mandokir seems to hit harder than he should.
  • While fighting panther boss, mob packs from outside the room agro and attack the raid. Pathing and line of sight issues.
  • I actually do not know how quickly the panther boss' Whirlwind should be cast, but right now there is no time to dodge it when you notice the whirlwind animation/emote.
  • Hakkar's platform has line of sight / pathing issues as well, people who are feared sometimes fall all the way down to lowest level.
  • Fighting Hakkar without having snake boss killed makes him spit poison twice at the same time, every 2 seconds. As far as I know, he should only spit once. Not sure about the frequency of it.
  • Hakkar's siphon spell seems to heal/damage less than it should. It was around 1k health/damage every 2 seconds.
  • Hakkar's mind control seems to remove threat of the target.
  • And the most annoying bug of them all: You get stuck in combat after fighting mobs all the time. it makes ZG a very annoying and unpleasant experience.
Click to expand...

bl4ckc0d3r said:
In addition to my test report, I'd like to add that overall the dungeon seems ridiculously easy. I highly recommend increasing health of mobs and mini bosses in order to make it somewhat challenging, also I recommend increasing the amount of trash packs throughout the dungeon. Mind you that the gear we used on PTR is far inferior to the gear we have right now and will have when ZG is released on Kronos, so on live it will be even more of a faceroll if the "difficulty" of the dungeon remains the same.
Click to expand...



Yes. All pissing contest and no actual feedback.
 
moljac89 said:
After only half of ZG testing (4 bosses+trash in between), I really want to ask Peasemold and Hagson. On what server you did ZG testing? Are we all on same Kronos PTR? "Nothing hugely broken" isn't situation we found inside raid. No hard feelings, I'm not arguing/insulting/whatevertalking, but instead of doing actual test and a bit of research to help make this easier for devs, you guys made this thread into pissing contest, talking about server firsts and unfair older guild progression.
Click to expand...

The only thing I forgot about was the mind control on Hakkar not restoring aggro. Everything else is wonky but you can still "clear the content". This was done in dungeon/MC gear due to how the character copy worked out. We also only did one run, you cannot really gather vast data from one run - which is why you want multiple guilds running. So things some miss others will find. This is normal.

Also we deliberated on writing up a bug list but with no real place to put it we haven't done so. We recorded the run, too.

BWL was broken on PTR and in a similar state when it was released, I fully expect the same with ZG.

No one is running PTR to practise content, this isn't retail.
 
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Everything else is wonky but you can still "clear the content
Click to expand...

That's not how you report bugs though. What's the point of streaming as fast as possible through a PTR raid and giving a feedback like: "Okay everything is not how its supposed but still doable topkek".

We tried to have mutliple tries on every boss and from what i can tell, nearly every bossmechanic was broken in some way until yesterday.
 
Fabix said:
That's not how you report bugs though. What's the point of streaming as fast as possible through a PTR raid and giving a feedback like: "Okay everything is not how its supposed but still doable topkek".

We tried to have mutliple tries on every boss and from what i can tell, nearly every bossmechanic was broken in some way until yesterday.
Click to expand...

My point is you can kill shit, maybe it's more difficult, maybe it's easier. Look at Chromaggus, that was reported on the PTR and it took a few months to fix after release. If there was a bug so bad you couldn't finish an encounter - that is a huge issue which should be fixed. And as I said we did it in mostly dungeon and MC gear and felt that we vastly out geared the entire instance, so I didn't expect anyone to have issues with actually killing bosses unless they were wearing greens or didn't know the mechanics to begin with. Watch what happens when BWL geared guilds go in there, some mechanics won't even matter.

So we post bugs here? The tracker? Report to IRC? A single post stating where all ZG bug reports should go would've been preferred, that's all. My only experience of bug reporting on this server was for BWL which we talked directly to Gurky about it.
 
I'm not sure I've understood you... what prevents you from reporting bugs where bugs are reported? :blink:
 
How to bug-report, Kronos guidelines : http://www.kronos-wow.com/bug-reporting/

Just my two-cents : Everyone has different points of views and expectations and concepts. For some Kronos is a server where quality is key and the scripting must be 100%. For others Kronos is a server where they can do some raiding with a good community, as long as the bosses can die and don't make them spend 5h on a fight they are happy. What is "Gamebreaking" depends on who you ask, many would say ZG is already good enough to be shipped, others would highly disagree. Whether we agree or not we will probably do a better job if we focus on objective elements about the situation, ie: "Boss X does/doesn't do Y at Z moment". This way devs can do their work.

As for why bugs can sometimes take a lot of time to repair, you may find this interesting.
 
"...some mechanics won't even matter." Let's just leave this discussion there and close this post.
 
moljac89 said:
"...some mechanics won't even matter." Let's just leave this discussion there and close this post.
Click to expand...

You think MC boss mechanics matter to BWL guilds? Even some BWL mechanics can be ignored with the correct gear levels. You do understand the concept of out gearing content, right?

Does this mean those mechanics should not be corrected if bugged? Of course not. Do I expect 100% retail accuracy at release? No. Will this matter in the long run? No, probably not.

If it's released in the PTR state it would just be a difficult version of the dungeon until they fix it. Just like Chromaggus.
 
I can't believe what i'm reading.. what has out gearing have to do with anything?
The fights are clearly bugged and not working properly.

If you're going in to TEST the encounters, please do actually test the encounters and compare them to retail.
Don't go about 'we tested it, nothing much seemed bugged and content seemed easy as baking pie, few things here and there but it was ok'...

Of course mechanics matter, i'd rather have a working fight than a boss spamming his abilities, EVEN if you can kill it.
 
Peasemold said:
Does this mean those mechanics should not be corrected if bugged? Of course not.
Click to expand...

The reading comprehension in here.

Yes, they are buggy as fuck. If they are fixed on release, great! If they aren't, that's disappointing but the content is still able to be cleared. How do you not see this distinction?

All this is fucking irrelevant, too. Who knows what is fixed and what isn't, what they've even acknowledged as bugged or working, because they don't disclose it.
 
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