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Paladin Why do people hate ret paladins in Vanilla?

Saltskin

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Oct 21, 2016
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#1
I mean, aren't they a great class for PVP? Heavy defense and great damage
Also, for PVE, they have the Vengeance talent, Sanctity aura, seal of crusader, seal of command, vindication. Why aren't they being valued for their dps?
 

Oidd

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Aug 27, 2014
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Greece
#2
pve:
even tanks can do more damage
no utility that a holy paladin can't bring to the raid (unlike shadow priest for example)

pvp:
ret paladin is nice for support (as any paladin spec really) but 99/100 people playing ret paladin are sticking to chasing undead mages instead of using freedom/displelling warriors sitting next to them frozen.
spec does not really matter, the playstyle and priorities make the differce. In serious premade games you will want to stick to healing/supporting.

go holy
 
Joined
Oct 5, 2014
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#3
I've seen good rets but most of the time rets will play only damage dealer instead of support, watch you die without any heals, cleanse, and the worst of them don't even freedom anyone but themselves
 

Saltskin

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Oct 21, 2016
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#4
pve:
even tanks can do more damage
no utility that a holy paladin can't bring to the raid (unlike shadow priest for example)
Doesn't Vindication reduce the mob's strength and agility by 15%? I think that's a great utility.
 

Saltskin

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Oct 21, 2016
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#6
People also seem to complain about levelling up a ret pally. I tried to lvl up a mage, couldn't get past lvl 10 with the frustration. So many spell resists, pull 2 mobs you run out of mana and you're dead, but with a pally, you've got great defense, damage, bubble, lay on hands. Piece of cake

Oh, and you can get engineering for ranged ability. Bombs, dynamites FTW.
 

Horo

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Aug 15, 2015
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#7
Paladin was one of my main classes since EU beta.

It's more the stigma that has been attached to the Paladin since the dawn of time.

Retribution Paladins in particular were people who wanted to deal damage, and rightfully they chose Retribution and expect it to work. Sadly, the spec is broken in vanilla and doesn't work as well as it's supposed to.
Other players see a ret paladin and then automatically assume he sucks.
The fact is that people see 3 different ret paladins:

1.) Rets who deal decent damage, support their group with all kinds of utility and generally contribute enough to the group to warrant their spot.
2.) Rets who deal decent damage.
3.) Rets who don't know what they're doing and suck.

Two of these three archetypes are bad. If two thirds of a certain class' spec sucks, then people will inevitably prejudice at some point.
 

Druidella

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Jun 4, 2017
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#8
Actually, Holy is less versatile than a properly specialized and decently geared Ret Paladin. For example, if you go deep in Holy you end up with Holy Shock, which is okay, but not great. Even with + healing gear you will likely only get 1 critical heal with Holy Shock every 4 uses. It simply doesn't heal enough to make any difference. I mean, even if you get a normal heal for 750 (despite the fact the tooltip says less than 300), it does nothing considering the amount of damage an FC receives from numerous sources. When you factor in the time for Holy Shock to land and any global cooldowns, a couple seconds has actually passed. You would be better off trying to land the 2.5 heal for 2,500.

On the other hand, Repentance provides an extra CC, and any experienced WSG PvPer knows that the game is won on CC, never damage or healing. Most CC wins, hands down, every game.

I do acknowledge the importance of healing in PvP, and for the Retribution Paladin to continue the roll of support. He should spec about 20 talents in Holy, and 31 in Retribution to be an excellent support class overall. Gear up with plenty of intel to increase the chances of the holy spells landing as criticals, as well as having plenty for healing. A Ret pally should aim for about 5k mana unbuffed.

A Ret Pally should never consider himself to be "a warrior who can heal." That is not the definition of a Retribution Paladin. The very word "Retribution" means "punishment inflicted on someone as vengeance for a wrong or criminal act." This means that if a Horde attacks the Paladin or a teammate, the Paladin can strike back using any of his abilities, and the method he employs in striking back could also be how he buffs up and/or heals a warrior to terminate the enemy.

Also, playing a Retribution Paladin provides the paladin the best means of self defense, as opposed to Holy. Holy is useless when spell-locked, and cannot heal himself out of trouble, nor can he melee decently to defend himself. But a Ret Pally who had SoC active can actually fight back.

I noticed how people seem to think that Holy is some kind of pvp god, but the reality is that Holy only sounds like a good idea because of how much people want heals. However, Holy cannot heal any better than any other Paladin spec when he is being constantly CCed and spell locked. Full Holy has no more defenses against CC than a Ret Pally who has 20 talents in Holy, and Full Holy is actually more defenseless.
 

Horo

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Aug 15, 2015
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#9
I remember how you could get Spiritual Focus, Illumination and Divine Favor with just 11 points in Holy. It was called the "holy 11". Then Blizzard changed that. :(
 

Masmin

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Mar 1, 2016
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Illinois
#10
Actually, Holy is less versatile than a properly specialized and decently geared Ret Paladin. For example, if you go deep in Holy you end up with Holy Shock, which is okay, but not great. Even with + healing gear you will likely only get 1 critical heal with Holy Shock every 4 uses. It simply doesn't heal enough to make any difference. I mean, even if you get a normal heal for 750 (despite the fact the tooltip says less than 300), it does nothing considering the amount of damage an FC receives from numerous sources. When you factor in the time for Holy Shock to land and any global cooldowns, a couple seconds has actually passed. You would be better off trying to land the 2.5 heal for 2,500.

On the other hand, Repentance provides an extra CC, and any experienced WSG PvPer knows that the game is won on CC, never damage or healing. Most CC wins, hands down, every game.

I do acknowledge the importance of healing in PvP, and for the Retribution Paladin to continue the roll of support. He should spec about 20 talents in Holy, and 31 in Retribution to be an excellent support class overall. Gear up with plenty of intel to increase the chances of the holy spells landing as criticals, as well as having plenty for healing. A Ret pally should aim for about 5k mana unbuffed.

A Ret Pally should never consider himself to be "a warrior who can heal." That is not the definition of a Retribution Paladin. The very word "Retribution" means "punishment inflicted on someone as vengeance for a wrong or criminal act." This means that if a Horde attacks the Paladin or a teammate, the Paladin can strike back using any of his abilities, and the method he employs in striking back could also be how he buffs up and/or heals a warrior to terminate the enemy.

Also, playing a Retribution Paladin provides the paladin the best means of self defense, as opposed to Holy. Holy is useless when spell-locked, and cannot heal himself out of trouble, nor can he melee decently to defend himself. But a Ret Pally who had SoC active can actually fight back.

I noticed how people seem to think that Holy is some kind of pvp god, but the reality is that Holy only sounds like a good idea because of how much people want heals. However, Holy cannot heal any better than any other Paladin spec when he is being constantly CCed and spell locked. Full Holy has no more defenses against CC than a Ret Pally who has 20 talents in Holy, and Full Holy is actually more defenseless.

Druid your missing the point. It's not the spec, it's the pallies that gear full "ret" and mainly try to do damage. 90% or more of Rets don't throw out cleanses or heals or freedoms. They just focus fire. Sarei touched on this in the other thread, it's not the spec that's the issue that people hate on. It's the mindset of the majority of players that play ret that is the problem.
 

Kamchak

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Sep 12, 2016
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#11
It's the mindset of the majority of players that play ret that is the problem.
I can second that. One can go full retribution and still do cleanses and freedoms well enough if you want. And with Healing Light and Illumination (20 points) one can heal fairly tough PvP battles for relatively long time. That is with poor all-spec (not better than D2 or D2-shaman) gear.

Druid your missing the point.
I think you two are speaking the same thing actually.
 

Khrey

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Sep 18, 2014
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142
#12
Same reason ppl hate on ench or ferals, they just watch you die. The spec is fine but they never adapt to the situation. Like at least dispel viper :p
 
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