Who's right? the auction manual ? Psojed ?
Ban on trading accounts and/or characters on public channels
- It is strictly forbidden to trade characters, accounts, Stars, gold or whatever else from WoW for real money.
- Any form of trading with accounts is forbidden.
- It is strictly forbidden to offer or ask for exchanging, purchasing or selling a character on public channels (public channels are “/say”, “/emote”, “/yell”, basic WoW channels, “/world (/worldCZ)”, “/aukcepostav” and “/bg” or “/raid” in BGs). For this purpose, use only the “aukce postav” channel (see the next point).
- If players want to trade with characters, they have a special in-game channel for it – “/aukcepostav”. This channel can be joined by typing the command “/join aukcepostav”.
- It is allowed to trade only with Twinstar accounts and/or characters. Trading with any other accounts and/or characters is strictly forbidden..
Edit: Added original post of CJB:
Seems like you do not understand the whole concept.
If you would gain any power by buying an character from another player, the other one will lose it, won't he?
How is that unfair if a different player plays the same character? If you would get a free character from your friend that just stopped playing, is that pay to win? Should it be banned?
In order to sell your character you need to have access to your email address linked with the game account.
By the character auction nothing will change ingame. Only the controlling players change.
What?
... All "possible" abuses of the character auction mentioned here can be done without using the character auction ever. Can anyone name any "abuse" that cannot be done without using the auction house? I doubt.
Correct. But instead of simply transfering, Twinstar added the element of auction, so multiple people can compete for a single character and the owner of the character can choose the amounts required for his toon to transfer to another person.Twinstar team chose a quite misleading name for this tool. It should rather be called "character exchange system", because that's all it does. You are buying a character transfer from another player, and all the seller can do with the proceeds of his auction is buy a character from someone else himself.
Yes.I believe I do understand you on that part of this concept ... you're saying that a transfer of "power" is okay (ie: auctioning off characters...someone gains a character but someone else loses one - loses that power).
You are, in turn, saying that when a character, or armor/weapons are created (this power is created) and sold, it is not okay (according toward the beliefs held by Kronos [It is pay to win - the power is not transferred but created and given away]).
Do I got that right?
Like I posted in that big reply, the money did the work. It is players choice to use time or money to level up. And the money option is severely limited.... Well, this is what I am saying: The reason it is unfair for a different player to buy, own, and play a level 60 (using transferred power OR created power) he did not level up, gear, and work for, is because, HE DID NOT LEVEL UP GEAR OR WORK FOR IT.
Again with the accounts trading or borrowing. WTF people. Your account stays your own forever, if you are discovered trying to sell your account to another person, your account gets banned.The whole, "If you would get a free character from your friend..." thing is COMPLETELY different. Should that not be allowed? No, it shouldn't. Back in Vanilla they didn't let you even give accounts away. Not even to family. Now, is it going to happen? Yea, probably. Just like in Vanilla. BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN WE HAVE TO PERPETUATE THE VERY PROBLEM WITH REGULATION AND INCREASED TRAFFIC FLOW.
See up.I merely meant that being able to buy a fully geared auctioned level 60 is WORSE than the standard tier armor for sale pay to win systems.
The whole, "If you would get a free character from your friend..." thing is COMPLETELY different. Should that not be allowed? No, it shouldn't. Back in Vanilla they didn't let you even give accounts away. Not even to family.
haha I shared my retail account with three other guys in Vanilla, it's not like Blizzard cared.The whole, "If you would get a free character from your friend..." thing is COMPLETELY different. Should that not be allowed? No, it shouldn't. Back in Vanilla they didn't let you even give accounts away. Not even to family.
Can you give us a reasonable example of how will trading level 60 characters encourage botting?
Correct. [...] You could always see character names as far as I remember. And you could never see items until armory was made.
Better stop the examples, they keep going the wrong way...
Theft = taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.
Trade = transfer of the ownership of goods or services from one person or entity to another in exchange for other goods or services or for money. The important part is that both parties agree to it.
Oh please do that. Sadly, the characters in the auction do not appear out of thin air, so I'm quite curious when will the first level 60 ever to be sold appear in the CAH.
I'd bet it will take much longer than if you would actually level up those 10x60 chars on your own.
You cannot camp herb spawn points, because they are pooled and keep changing locations...
I'm sure that if you are the only "one man tailor guild" on the server, you will control the market. But you won't be the only tailor.
But yet again, you are not buying more options.
Another thing is the auction itself. Yes, it works like a regular ingame auction house. Remember those overpriced epics on Failnix?
If someone ever decided to stop playing his beloved r14 pew pew imba character with Sulfuras (which I highly doubt), do you think he would give it to a stranger for nothing?
Umm, yes that's kinda the thing of buying something, isn't it?
Since you like examples, I will give you one. Joe and Jill walk into the bakery and Jill buys some bread, Joe decides not to buy anything. Now Jill has spent her money and gained advantage over Joe, she can eat bread right now. But that doesn't limit Joe's chances to bake his own bread, does it? Nor does it make Jill superior to Joe, bread doesn't make you any superior to others. She spent less time, but she lost some money in return, and the baker can feed his children. That's also how the world works.
Twinstar's character auction works the same way. An extra level 60 character does not make you superior to others, so I don't see your problem.
Correct. In my eyes, that is not an advantage. This is your choice to get to the level cap - one person uses money, another person uses time. Buyer or non-buyer are still the same, both are limited by level 60 cap, by the items they can get, proffs they can use, and so on.
And this is why buying the character will NOT get you an unfair advantage.
Okay, let's try it.
- Is there an unlock system in your game? By buying a level 60 I unlock the ability to go to raids, so I guess
YES.
- Can you buy unlocks with cash? You can buy level 60 when someone sells it, so
YES.
- Do the unlocks change how you play the game? example: give you more choices of classes or professions
NO
Altering the last part a bit to be more specific...
- Do the unlocks change how you play the game? example: give you more choices of how to beat a raidboss or how to win in a PvP duel?
NO
I guess that with your handy chart, we passed.
Your main issue seems to be with there being a huge advantage in buying a character. Such advantage that you will not be able to keep up without using the advantage itself, correct?
I see you swapped from "characters" to "accounts" suddenly. Sadly, Twinstar does not allow trading accounts, so get back on track :wink:
Twinstar team chose a quite misleading name for this tool. It should rather be called "character exchange system", because that's all it does. You are buying a character transfer from another player, and all the seller can do with the proceeds of his auction is buy a character from someone else himself.
It's pretty obvious why that isn't allowed in retail: blizzard doesn't earn money from it.
Okay, but I seriously doubt that anyone with a brain will bot for stars :biggrin: The risk of getting caught botting and getting permabanned is way too high and all auctions are permanently logged.I'm not that guy but I'll answer for him.
Before the reasons for botting leveling was to get another level 60, which obviously is something desireable.
Now the reason for botting leveling is to get another level 60 OR to get stars for free. You have more to gain, thus more incentive to do so.
I once sold a character back on Kronos, like three years ago? The character itself is probably deleted, but the auction is still visible in my history.So if the names are indeed shown then I could just compare the name of the character to his armory profile (either official armory or an unofficial like realmplayers). I could then choose to buy a character based on his gear, allowing me to essentially buy gear, provided it was farmed in the convential way.
I like how you generalized the Stealing, but you didn't generalize Selling. If you did, you would have to change the first sentence, as "Selling is something that is usually allowed". :wink: As for your stealing analogues, ripoff prices in many stores are basically stealing too and it's perfectly legal.You really don't see what I'm trying to say do you? I'll break it down.
Stealing is something that is usually disallowed. Most people and governments try to prevent stealing since people in general don't like (apart from the theif of course). Noone is able to fully prevent stealing, it will always happen whatever you do.
The conclusion is to keep stealing illegal and take measures to prevent stealing from happening.
Selling characters / accounts is something that is usually disallowed. Most players and servers try to prevent the selling of accounts/characters since people in general don't like it (apart from the seller/buyer of course). Noone is able to fully prevent the selling/buying of characters/accounts, it will always happen whatever you do.
The solution most servers do is to keep selling of accounts/characters illegal and take measures to prevent it from happening.
Twinstar actually still prevents selling characters anywhere except one specific channel and using anything else than Twinstar's specific tool. Admins took the selling, reduced the risk involved and made it so that it actually helps keep the server working. If that extra money helps (for example) prevent a DDOS attack, all the selling is damn fine with me!What Kronos does is instead to allow it saying "It will always happen, so why even try to prevent it?".
This is where we do not agree. You see it as if it's the government's fault that some people are stealing stuff. I'd say it's the thieves' fault that they steal stuff. Keep your opinion if you want, but I don't agree with it :wink:This is analogous to a government saying "Stealing (or murder) will always happen, so why even try to prevent it?".
Now do you see the point of my example?
Correct and I have no issues with that.If the player leveling 10 characters and the player attempting to buy 10 character starts on release day the player leveling will most likely win.
If they start a year down the line the player buying will win my an enormous margin.
In my opinion, gaining a special benefit is the describing perk of pay to win. The only thing CAH brings is a choice between levelling and buying, you don't gain any special benefit like an extra class otherwise unplayable to non-buyers, a special profession or whatever... all the options you described are available to a non-buyer too.While that might not be the case, I will still be 10 times as powerful as any other tailor, and thus have an advantage over that player gained by buying characters.
...
Let's say I level a druid to level 60. Now my choices are to play a level 60 druid or a level 1 of any class.
Then I buy a level 60 priest.
Now my choices are to play a level 60 druid, a level 60 priest or a level 1 of any class.
I bought an option.
Yes, the person will save time. The character will not.Also note the section about the cash shop, namely "exp boosts or items that save you time".
Buying a character that someone else leveled and geared for you is undeniably buying something that "saves you time". So "you" failed twice.
...
In my eyes using IRL money (the means of which obtaining these are not related to the game) to earn an advantage in game should not be allowed. While it's still possible to obtain the same abilities a "buyer" has as a "nonbuyer" it's a lot harder and takes more time and effort. So no, they are not the same.
In my opinion, this is only true if you are able to simultaneously play all the characters you buy. You cannot play multiple chars from one account. For 10 characters, you would need 10 accounts and that makes you a multiboxer, which is yet another story of different opinions...Yes, almost. I'm not saying you have to buy more characters to be competive or play the game to its limits. I'm just saying that buying more characters will objectively make you stronger than other players, meaning that keeping up with someone who buys a lot of characters is very hard to do without buying characters yourself.
What you are doing is openly encouraging selling characters.
And that is an enormous difference. It's the difference between saying "this is a problem lets deal with it" and "we wont be able to solve this problem to 100%, so let's make some money off it instead".
This is already a part of CAH :yes: When you create an auction, you can select if it's a classic auction (buy for stars) or Trade auction (buy one [CR]lvl 60[/CR] character with your own [CR]lvl 60[/CR] character). Of course the gear stays on the characters. It wouldn't make much sense to try out a naked warrior, would it?Transform the CAH into a Character Trading System, where you trade one level 60 character for another level 60 character. Make it so that you don't get to keep the name or gear, etc from the former owner.
This way you can't buy more power or options, only exchange your current set of options for another set of options. This would remove the transfer of power from one player to another, and still allow people to "try out another class" like so many have expressed interest for.
JCB said:Let's take a quick mental look at the Feenix Emerald Dream Server. It's been up for a few years now and there are plenty of dormant characters. Bad ass dormant characters. If your system was implemented all those characters would be bought (thru virtual currency or not, it is still considered a purchase in my eyes - somewhere down the road, it is *bought*) and then played by some undeserving random who did not work for any of the value, that the character represents.
If character Auction takes place on Kronos, eventually characters will be sold there. To stop your auction and prove how shamefull and gamebreaking it is. As a Vanilla fan for the past 10 years. I am willing to outbid/buy every character sold and personally delete them. People can keep stating what pleases their view point, but in the end Characters you did not level your self nor geared up or grindfested should never be available to others. Hence I Swear I will outbuy everyone and trash the characters personaly cause that is how gamebreaking and INSUTLING it is to a Oldschool Vanilla player that has dedicate that much time and effort into this game. This is a damn disgrace to wow fans, how can you leaglize this? You people and the project team should be ashamed!!!
you seem to be taking video games pretty seriouslyIf character Auction takes place on Kronos, eventually characters will be sold there. To stop your auction and prove how shamefull and gamebreaking it is. As a Vanilla fan for the past 10 years. I am willing to outbid/buy every character sold and personally delete them. People can keep stating what pleases their view point, but in the end Characters you did not level your self nor geared up or grindfested should never be available to others. Hence I Swear I will outbuy everyone and trash the characters personaly cause that is how gamebreaking and INSUTLING it is to a Oldschool Vanilla player that has dedicate that much time and effort into this game. This is a damn disgrace to wow fans, how can you leaglize this? You people and the project team should be ashamed!!!
Why don't people in this topic just understand that no matter what, people will always sell and buy characters. It is just so easy to create each character on a separate account just in case I want to sell it later with whole account and e-mail. The only thing that removal of char auction will lead to is people getting forced to sell/buy on black market with lots of scammers (and then coming to us crying they were robbed - and we can't do anything about that since they willingly gave away their account).If character Auction takes place on Kronos, eventually characters will be sold there. To stop your auction and prove how shamefull and gamebreaking it is. As a Vanilla fan for the past 10 years. I am willing to outbid/buy every character sold and personally delete them. People can keep stating what pleases their view point, but in the end Characters you did not level your self nor geared up or grindfested should never be available to others. Hence I Swear I will outbuy everyone and trash the characters personaly cause that is how gamebreaking and INSUTLING it is to a Oldschool Vanilla player that has dedicate that much time and effort into this game. This is a damn disgrace to wow fans, how can you leaglize this? You people and the project team should be ashamed!!!
People who are serious, who devote themself to their characters will Never accept this.
Respect that some people are against this.
So they dont prevent selling characters.Twinstar actually still prevents selling characters anywhere except one specific channel and using anything else than Twinstar's specific tool.
This is where we do not agree. You see it as if it's the government's fault that some people are stealing stuff. I'd say it's the thieves' fault that they steal stuff. Keep your opinion if you want, but I don't agree with it :wink:
In my opinion, gaining a special benefit is the describing perk of pay to win. The only thing CAH brings is a choice between levelling and buying, you don't gain any special benefit like an extra class otherwise unplayable to non-buyers, a special profession or whatever... all the options you described are available to a non-buyer too.
Yes, the person will save time. The character will not.
I find your opinion awfully narrow-minded. It's no different from asking your friend to level up a priest for you. Should Twinstar ban people levelling up characters for their friends?
In my opinion, this is only true if you are able to simultaneously play all the characters you buy. You cannot play multiple chars from one account. For 10 characters, you would need 10 accounts and that makes you a multiboxer, which is yet another story of different opinions...
I'd say you should direct your opinions to the players willing to sell their characters and persuade those to not do so, as Twinstar established regulations and left a completely free hand to the server community.
This is already a part of CAH :yes: When you create an auction, you can select if it's a classic auction (buy for stars) or Trade auction (buy one [CR]lvl 60[/CR] character with your own [CR]lvl 60[/CR] character). Of course the gear stays on the characters. It wouldn't make much sense to try out a naked warrior, would it?
If they want to get rid of it they will just sell their account on the black market for REAL money. If you think this doesn't happen on every private or retail server you are in for a surprise. Just google "buy emerald dream account" and you will be amazed.
The only thing kronos offers is
1) a safe way to trade your character with someone else if you want to play a different class
2) an option for new players that are die hard against x1 leveling to buy a real character someone else has leveled to 30, 40, 50 or 60 and buy it in a safe way. These are people who might never play here if it wouldn't be possible. Which will be good for the population and who is against that? It still makes or breaks a probate server.
And this all happens without you noticing a single thing ingame and not causing any inbalance.
[Feenix is bad]
At least on kronos there is transparancy and freedom of speech. It is not so common in the private server scene. I haven't seen a single topic get locked here.
they are not even selling it for 15 euro they are selling it for fucking twinstar starsWhy do people think high pvp ranked/geared pve'rs will be selling their characters? Outside of one instance on ED, no pvpers sold their accounts. Very few geared pve'rs bought/sold their character. You're telling me some guy whose invested 40+ days into their character will sell it for 15 euro? Bullshit, the only characters being sold are going to be scrub shit geared blank faces.
If character Auction takes place on Kronos, eventually characters will be sold there. To stop your auction and prove how shamefull and gamebreaking it is. As a Vanilla fan for the past 10 years. I am willing to outbid/buy every character sold and personally delete them. People can keep stating what pleases their view point, but in the end Characters you did not level your self nor geared up or grindfested should never be available to others. Hence I Swear I will outbuy everyone and trash the characters personaly cause that is how gamebreaking and INSUTLING it is to a Oldschool Vanilla player that has dedicate that much time and effort into this game. This is a damn disgrace to wow fans, how can you leaglize this? You people and the project team should be ashamed!!!
No offense to Hagson and JCB, but there is so much facepalm in some of their arguments that they make it very hard for me not te get nervous. They seem to be fundamentally against this feature and refuse to follow other peoples logic.
Okay afaik the characters will have a buyout price of twinstar points with the equivalent of about 15€ maximum. So the character can never be more expensive than this. To make it 100% clear the seller only gets donation points and not actual money. So you think people that quit will put up their "bad ass" characters in order to get a small amount of donater currency? While they can only buy a different lvl 60 or a murloc pet with it for a game they stopped playing?
If they want to get rid of it they will just sell their account on the black market for REAL money. If you think this doesn't happen on every private or retail server you are in for a surprise. Just google "buy emerald dream account" and you will be amazed.