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    TwinStar team

AQ40 did not live up to the Kronos standard

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DarkStorm

Authorized
Joined
Jan 25, 2015
I really feel like this thread has to be made. Although its been discussed in threads not really dedicated to the subject itself I feel like this really needs just that, its own thread.

When I joined Kronos instead of Nostalrius back when ED went to shit I was amazed by how well scripted Kronos was. There was an attention to detail in quests and mechanics that didnt exist on Feenix. It was very clear in the start that it was a lot better scripted than Nostalrius was at launch and I felt like I had made the right choice.

This AQ40 launch did not reflect this at all however. I understand that most of the people involved are unpaid and that it is a free product however I feel like the scripting in AQ40 and 20 could have been prevented easily. Judging by the lightning speed fixes while the raid was happening I am sure that with proper testing the raid would not have been this bad off.

As far as I know, pretty much every single boss inside AQ40 was bugged in some way except perhaps for C'thun. Thats not counting how many trash mobs that also were bugged.

I understand that you put a huge amount of effort into making the AQ event work but I still feel a bit dissapointed by the quality inside AQ40 and AQ20.

What I basically want to say with this post is that please revise your testing methods for Naxx. Do a joined PTR like you did for BWL. There is just NO WAY that you didnt run into bugs like Twins sharing aggro table if you tested your raids with 40 people.

I mean for example the bugged adds on Frankriss was a global bug that happened over a week before AQ release. It affected all mobs, including the ones in Dire Maul, strat etc.

Im torn. On the one way I feel like I shouldnt complain because this is all free but on the other hand I feel like the raids could have been better tuned. Its hardly like Chero is an incomepent dev, he has shown to be very competent in the past.

What do other people feel? How did you experience the first clear of AQ40 and 20?
 
There are still bugs present. In another post Davros wrote an apology when I said "hire testers who know what the hell they are doing", which is not what I wanted to accomplish at all. Don't need to make anyone feel bad or demand apologies, just giving serious feedback.

That serious feedback is that testing really needs to be done properly and that in the past it has never been done properly. Allow me to explain this so it doesn't look like I'm just complaining without trying to help or suggest a solution.
  • Blackwing Lair release. One big PTR pug with people from multiple guilds. Lots of bugs were reported. When BWL got released, some bugs still remained and a few more bugs were discovered that weren't present before.
  • Before ZG. Because of the BWL release had bugs, and because we cared about the "best scriped vanilla server in universe" reputation and scripting quality that DarkStorm mentioned, we asked that you allow multiple interested guilds to have separate PTR guild raids that would be monitored by GMs and in that manner 99.99% of all bugs would be discovered since different guilds use different tactics and end up in different situations.
  • ZG release. What we asked for we got half-way. They allowed all guilds to test ZG on PTR. However, they did so by keeping PTR open for 2 weeks, allowing everyone countless number of raids without GM supervision. The bugs that got reported in the ZG PTR thread were ignored because they were not posted on the issue tracker. Yes, we failed to notice you asked in the thread specifically to report it on issue tracker but does that justify simply ignoring bug reports on forum that were posted over time course of two weeks? Some of the reported ZG bugs were never fixed to this day - bat boss trash and patrols anyone?
  • Dragons of Nightmare. Taerar's adds, just like all adds that are neutral on Kronos, still fixate on a single target and never change it, ignoring taunts and all threat done. Never fixed.
  • Before AQ. We were told there will be no AQ PTR raids for Kronos community, probably because of negative experience with what they did with ZG. Apparently they had full confidence in their tester team and also didn't want average players to witness AQ before it gets released in order to keep things more challenging (the last part is my own assumption)?
  • AQ release. They nerfed soulstones so that we can't spend 30 minutes running outside AQ, reclearing the respawned trash, soulstoning the whole raid, and going back to C'thun. That completely ruined our plans (we couldn't care less about it in reality, apologies for sarcasm). Inside AQ40, the bugs started with first boss and continued until C'thun. Davros already said in other thread that some of the bugs did not exist on PTR and that they ''apeared'' when the content was moved to live realm. After hotfixing the biggest gamebreaking bugs that made bosses unkillable, some bugs still remain and are currently on the issue tracker.

Enough with history and overview of how things went. What is the conclusion? Conclusion is that 99.99% of these bugs would have been avoided with a different strategy when it comes to pre-release raid testing. I still strongly believe that my original suggestion from before ZG that there should be multiple testing raids supervised by GMs would be the best solution. Another way to make sure that Naxx doesn't end up being horrible is to at least conduct the raid testing AFTER the content is moved to live realm, not just on PTR.

The reason we are writing this and "complaining" is because we actually care, I hope the staff understands that. It is completely obvious that you require more developers and testers, or perhaps you need better ones. Or simply different pre-release testing strategies.
 
bl4ckc0d3r said:
-Lots of text-

The reason we are writing this and "complaining" is because we actually care, I hope the staff understands that. It is completely obvious that you require more developers and testers, or perhaps you need better ones. Or simply different pre-release testing strategies.
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While we have our disagreements in other threads you pretty much summed up everything I wanted to say. Good post.
 
This is strangely constructive for a Kronos forum post, I'm impressed.

I echo the sentiment of the neutral adds being extremely disappointing as that was a well known bug for some time.
Overall I think it was a fairly good release for aq40 with some professional standard responses to some of the bugs (twins especially) and as mentioned early on in DarkStorms post, we aren't paying to be here and we aren't paying the devs for their time. AQ40 normally kills private servers, so I'm glad we've gotten through it and back out the otherside, more than anything.
 
I believe if the Kronos team had done proper AQ raid testing, it would've been buffed/fixed.

We did AQ20 on release, and it was the most broken instance I remember doing in private vanilla 1x servers. Skipped nearly everything, including a second boss and his trash waves (both kept respawning), skipped Moam's mana drain since he drained so little to fill his mana bar - 1 Viper Sting kept Moam oom. Ofc without any world buffs we still killed Moam (in zg/mc gear mostly) before he stoneformed and his adds appeared.

Ossirian was broken, he randomly resets between crystals, crystals didn't respawn, became uninteractable... to the point where we were just gonna kite kill him since he moved so slow, but ofc, the server lag made it impossible.

All this took 3.5 hrs due to restarts and lag.

Didn't even bother with Ayamiss/Buru at that point.

There was a reason I was hyped for Kronos back in July 2014. This show, and watching Vanguards slip-everything BWL video, is just appalling to any vanilla enthusiast. Definitely not the Kronos I remember promised.
 
There are many problems present with every single encounter we have experienced so far.

Skeram: Illusions were moving and attacking before they were even visible, arcane explosion is spammed WAY too much, and (now fixed) Skeram's illusions were not despawning after a wipe.

Sartura: We experienced massive server lag when we got to this boss mid-attempt. Our add's become un-attackable and began clipping through the ceiling and other geometry. After we killed Sartura we were all stuck in combat for several minutes.

Fankriss: Just like Sartura, the server took a massive shit on this boss mid-attempt, causing a wipe. The adds are spawning in and attacking before they are visible but this fight is generally considered really easy regardless.

Huhuran: She completely ignored the 15 closest soakers during her berzerk phase and was blasting random people.

Twin Emps: They were targetting random people who should've had no threat, for example we had a dps cloth randomly have unlimited aggro on Vek'nilash (he's magic immune, btw) and charge into the middle of the room causing a wipe. Vek'nilash is doing auto-attack bursts and the bugs mutate way too fast. Most of the problems we experienced; however, were emps teleporting in and not being visible, clipping through geometry and then eventually double teleporting onto the same spot. This happened literally 3 times in a row for us.

C'Thun: The giant claw and giant eye tentacles are active before they are even visible. The giant claw is killing people with melee while the knockup from spawn is happening, (if you dont titans, youre dead) this shouldnt be the case. The small tentacles are all targetting whomever is closest to them instead of random people, as well. We also had tentacles spawning during invulnerability, multiple times. This should NOT be possible.

So far every boss experienced has had glaring scripting issues.
 
I dont think there is anything wrong with complaining, even though the server is free. Don't feel bad.

Gesendet von meinem LG-D620 mit Tapatalk
 
Maybe its not clear but we (K1) do not want to be the PTR for K2. We would like the encounters to be scripted at release. Ive seen people from all guilds who raided on the first day comment on how disappointing the encounters were. Yesterday Ned streamed Corals AQ run and a theme of the chat with 200 viewers was how poorly it was scripted. This is giving Kronos a really shitty reputation in the private server scene and in my opinion it doesnt reflect the server overall, however you cannot deny that both raid instances were trainwrecks.

I appriciate that Chero probably has worked nonstop to fix these bugs but the point here again is that if we are to raid this even remotely competitively then the encounters need to work on release, not 1 or two weeks after.
 
AQ40 looks very nice to me. skeram is a little tougher then he should be but thats fine. a small minor things need fixing but overall it was a great experience

you guys need to grow some balls and stop whining all day long like babies. be grateful for what the kronos team is doing for YOU for FREE.
 
This just come across as some rant from the two guilds waking up at 4AM to raid "competitively". It was more than doable when we went in under 24 hours later, and I'm sure they are still working on further improving it. For the love of god, if it isn't one it's the other.

You wipe ONCE one twins to a bug and it's instantly hotfixed, yet you fucking feel the need to cry a river over how bad everything is on the forums. Get a life.
 
Ya, being destroyed for 31 000 damage by a mob that's untargettable is really quite nice, not to mention all of the other bugs listed. Let's shovel shit down our gullets and call it caviar, that'll solve it.

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Rolexsweep said:
This just come across as some rant from the two guilds waking up at 4AM to raid "competitively". It was more than doable when we went in under 24 hours later, and I'm sure they are still working on further improving it. For the love of god, if it isn't one it's the other.

You wipe ONCE one twins to a bug and it's instantly hotfixed, yet you fucking feel the need to cry a river over how bad everything is on the forums. Get a life.
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Every boss was bugged, something that a PTR could prevent, lifting up both the reputation/enjoyment of the server by all. I have friends that are currently stuck on bosses due to their broken mechanics and they shouldn't be happy about it because it was totally preventable.

I don't understand the pushback in this regard, it's entirely reasonable to ask for measures to prevent these type of things, but people insist on being apologists, it's boggling.
 
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"It could be cleared when we did the dungeon so shut the hell up and stop complaining"

Just because you don't give a damn about server firsts doesn't mean that content should be released bugged when it can be completely avoided with some testing on live realms, whether with inner team or gathering knowledgeable players from interested guilds.

And 'the two ranting guilds waking up at 4AM to raid "competitively" that are crying a river' that you mock probably promoted the server far more than you have or ever will. We are part of the community just like everyone else and we should be able to expect released content to be in good condition when we hold our competitions, not just when your guild decides to raid after taking its time.
 
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bl4ckc0d3r said:
"It could be cleared when we did the dungeon so shut the hell up and stop complaining"

Just because you don't give a damn about server firsts doesn't mean that content should be released bugged when it can be completely avoided with some testing on live realms, whether with inner team or gathering knowledgeable players from interested guilds.

And 'the two ranting guilds waking up at 4AM to raid "competitively" that are crying a river' that you mock probably promoted the server far more than you have or ever will. We are part of the community just like everyone else and we should be able to expect released content to be in good condition when we hold our competitions, not just when your guild decides to raid after taking its time.
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sounds like someone got beat to c'thun and is blaming it on bugs that everyone else had to deal with as well. QQ
 
Rolexsweep said:
This just come across as some rant from the two guilds waking up at 4AM to raid "competitively". It was more than doable when we went in under 24 hours later
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Oh wow, and now guess WHY it was doable when you went in 24 hours later? Oh, that's right, because the fucking nerds going in at 4 am noticed the bugs before you went in.

Grow a fucking brain.
 
"be grateful for what the kronos team is doing for YOU for FREE." - epix

Yes, because investing ~12k stars into the project is just charity work.
 
Naice said:
Oh wow, and now guess WHY it was doable when you went in 24 hours later? Oh, that's right, because the fucking nerds going in at 4 am noticed the bugs before you went in.

Grow a fucking brain.
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Yeah I'm fucking sorry every boss wasn't perfectly scripted on your first try, while the EU-located developer stayed up in the middle of the night fixing shit for you. 12 hours later it was OK, but who cares because YOUR try and "race" wasn't perfect. Every release it's the same: whine, whine, whine. Grow up.

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bl4ckc0d3r said:
"It could be cleared when we did the dungeon so shut the hell up and stop complaining"

Just because you don't give a damn about server firsts doesn't mean that content should be released bugged when it can be completely avoided with some testing on live realms, whether with inner team or gathering knowledgeable players from interested guilds.

And 'the two ranting guilds waking up at 4AM to raid "competitively" that are crying a river' that you mock probably promoted the server far more than you have or ever will. We are part of the community just like everyone else and we should be able to expect released content to be in good condition when we hold our competitions, not just when your guild decides to raid after taking its time.
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You certainly didn't seem to care much when a member of the staff explained how certain bugs weren't present on the internal PTR but went through to live. No tell me how a PTR-test would have fixed that. How much do you actually know about how this works? Exactly.
 
People just want Kronos to live up to it's reputation which attracted people here in the first place , getting bugged raids isn't enticing or what Kronos should be known for.

Even the summoned adds bug has existed for over week which I'm guessing wasn't on the PTR but it should of been tested again on live properly.
 
You guys aren't wrong, you're just a$$holes.

I'm sure the the Kronos team is working non stop to fix all the issues we are experiencing. Sorry your day 1 runs weren't perfection but I think it is silly to expect everything to be bug free at release. Have some patience, it will be better soon enough.

I'd like to thank the dev team for all their hard work and getting us some new content. Thank you.
 
Hull said:
I'd like to thank the dev team for all their hard work and getting us some new content. Thank you.
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same here. just ignore these salty bois whining about anything. they dont have anything else to do in their lives
 
Big thanks to the trailblazer guilds who had to deal with all that craziness. Also GJ to the dev team to reacting pretty darn quickly.
 
Rolexsweep said:
You certainly didn't seem to care much when a member of the staff explained how certain bugs weren't present on the internal PTR but went through to live. No tell me how a PTR-test would have fixed that. How much do you actually know about how this works? Exactly.
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You didn't even read the very post of mine that you quoted - I didn't mention PTR there.
 
Since when did constructive criticism make people assholes? The only person to post shit slinging is Rolexsweep.

Yes it's a free service and a project done voluntarily. That doesn't mean you aren't allowed to discuss things that come as a disappointment. If no one ever mentions things that are wrong, how are they supposed to improve?

My guild normally raids at the time it was released. We had to deal with numerous bugs too. We weren't racing, we just wanted to do new content. Despite bugs, lag and whatever else it was still the most enjoyable raid experience in a very long time.
 
after watching the russian stream of <OUTPLAYED> killing c'thun

I must say, that fight is just as gorgeous to watch as it is to kill.

well done Kronos team, I really enjoyed the raid and cant wait to see how it is next week with even more bug fixes


some ppl seem to forget that this is a "Private Vanilla Project", key word being project
 
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