About the wow emulators!

[Magnifican]

Ok, so I am very new to this server emulation thing and have some newbie questions. Maybe this thread is made in the wrong part of the forum but I thought "general discussion" work since its a question involving Kronos as well as tbc and wotlk servers, if not then mods can move it

Alright, so Kronos is using Mangos-zero server as far and I know and it comes with alot of unfinished stuff. The previous Kronos project had alot of work done to it and since then it have been in development for years to the point we are now, and it obviously still has alot of bugs (100% bugfree doesnt exist anywhere) - yet it is still the best vanilla server script-wise!

So I got a few questions about emulator cores out there. Lets say a new server opens up with TrinityCore 3.3.5 for example, would they have to go back to develop vanilla content for years like Kronos have done, then polish BC content for years like CoreCraft have done, then also Wotlk content for years? How come there are so many Wotlk servers out there? Do they all have crappy (bugged) vanilla content? Or is it like i've seen some posts on the web saying that with emulators like TrinityCore the vanilla content is already properly scripted and almost bugfree to begin with? I understand Mangos-zero is the only vanilla core out there, and Kronos obviously use this one, but how would a later emulator function with vanilla content etc?

This same thing goes for TBC. I see alot of BC servers developing their server for years yet it still have bugs to that current content as well as lots of bugs to the vanilla content as well. Is this because they use "bad" cores? Some use Mangos or ArcEmu for BC too right? With TrinityCore (again as the example) the scripting of quests, events, dungeons, mobs etc are already done for that older content? Would you be able to raid MC on a "fairly new" 2.4.3 server without issues? Would you be able to raid Black Temple on a new 3.3.5 server? or ICC on a 4.3.4 server without major issues? The question im looking for is backward compability I think :blink:

Also about the future. How would a core be able to handle WoD? This expansion have sooo many scripted quest with events, nearly every damn NPC starts to talk (mostly voiceless but many of them even have voiceovers) when you trigger a quest, it has heavy scripted raids with so many mechanics in them, like using the environment around you to trigger another event etc. I see Wrath servers having problems with phasing (wrathgate event and Battle of Undercity dont work on most wrath servers), how would a WoD server handle the garrisons and other heavy phasing, will it be possible? I have yet to try out a cata/mop/wod private server, so I have no idea what they look like. Again im a big noob on these things so some enlightenment would be great! ^_^

And back to Kronos. In the future if Kronos succeeds and stays with a healthy community, I heard that they might open up a TBC server for us to continue our adventure on. If that would happen, how would the transformation process work? Like, I assume we would keep all of our characters, proffs, gear etc (would be a bit of a turnoff otherwise), but would we still be using Mangos as core for BC or a new core entirely? Would that require years of development to be made? Or will we use the already established BC server that Twinstar have? Or a "copy" of that work?

Lots of questions! I hope someone can fill me in on all this. Maybe a link to some introduction on how pvt servers and emulators work and what the difference is between them. I dont want a guide on "how to make one" or anything like that.

Cheers!

 

[dagid4]

... So I got a few questions about emulator cores out there. ... TrinityCore 3.3.5 for example ... Do they all have crappy (bugged) vanilla content?

I think, the answer is simple. They have got bugged vanilla content. It's all about marketing. People want datadiscs. So we give them datadisc with working new dungeons, arenas, etc. and people are happy, nobody care about not working vanilla quests.


Kronos is our redemption. Finally someone put the work in low level content and bring us working quests.

 

[Magnifican]

I think, the answer is simple. They have got bugged vanilla content. It's all about marketing. People want datadiscs. So we give them datadisc with working new dungeons, arenas, etc. and people are happy, nobody care about not working vanilla quests.


Kronos is our redemption. Finally someone put the work in low level content and bring us working quests.

I dont understand your answer. There are plenty of posts on many different forums saying TrinityCore and other newer emulators come with a lot more scripted, bugfree and stable base compared to Mangos-zero for example, to start with. This makes it more easy to polish vanilla content because its already in a workable state. Is this the reason it takes so much work and effort to get vanilla working properly, because Kronos, Nos, Molten and ED use Mangos (which is the only vanilla emulator out there) ?

Kronos might be our redemption as far as vanilla alone goes, but that wasnt really what my post was about. Lots of questions there that I would appreciate being answered, or give a link to some site that does explain all this abit more

 

[Aieris]

He is partialy right. Most servers with expansions don't care about lower content and so it's in basic state. It's also true, that it works from the begining very well. The problem is, that MangosZero was downgraded from WotLK Mangos and with this downgrade, a huge amount of things got broken.

 

[dagid4]

... plenty of posts on many different forums saying TrinityCore and other newer emulators come with a lot more scripted, bugfree and stable base compared to Mangos-zero for example, to start with. ...

I'm not talking about base/core/mechanic, i'm talking about 1-60lvl quests and these are not working on many WoW servers.

... This makes it more easy to polish vanilla content ...

If it is easy, why is it not working ? I don't agree with this. It is not easy to properly script all quests.

... Is this the reason it takes so much work and effort to get vanilla working properly, because Kronos, Nos, Molten and ED use Mangos ...

The reason is not bad server emulator. The reason is that there are thousands of quests, which some of them need custom scripting. So maybe better core make it easier to script, but still you must script them and it needs plenty of time.

... Kronos might be our redemption as far as vanilla alone goes, but that wasnt really what my post was about. Lots of questions there that I would appreciate being answered ...

I know you want different type of answers, but i'm not right person. I don't know much about WoW emulators, but i still think that my answers are enough for understanding why is it hard to properly script vanilla content and why newer emulators haven't got it properly scripted.

 

[JoeShmoe]

Interesting topic, hopefully people with the know how provide some answers. As far as my experience I see the same bugs regardless of server. Some big.. most minor.

 

[Magnifican]

He is partialy right. Most servers with expansions don't care about lower content and so it's in basic state. It's also true, that it works from the begining very well. The problem is, that MangosZero was downgraded from WotLK Mangos and with this downgrade, a huge amount of things got broken.

Which means Wrath emulator have a better working base. That was my point when I said that Trinitycore have a better base to build from. But thanks for your answer nontheless, it confirmed some things at least. From what I gathered Twinstar Wrath server does polish the vanilla content fairly well though, right? If we were to play on Hyperion right now we could start raiding Molten Core, BWL, AQ etc pretty much like it should be like? If Twinstar ever decide to make fresh international Wrath and/or TBC server I would play there forever Sadly now it's basically CZ only. Even if Kronos succeeds it will be couple of years (at least 2) before we get a Kronos TBC version out I bet. Here's to hoping!

I'm not talking about base/core/mechanic, i'm talking about 1-60lvl quests and these are not working on many WoW servers.

But they are working alot better than Mangos-zero does in its base state vs their basic state, that was my point. But this was not really what my topic was suppose to be about.

If it is easy, why is it not working ? I don't agree with this. It is not easy to properly script all quests.

I've only tried 2 wrath servers and both had working vanilla quests. Not 100% bug-free ofc but still working. Anyway. I agree with you its not easy, I didnt say it was/would be.

The reason is not bad server emulator. The reason is that there are thousands of quests, which some of them need custom scripting. So maybe better core make it easier to script, but still you must script them and it needs plenty of time.

But the emulators are very different, some come with lots of stuff already scripted and alot less bugs than say Mangos-zero does, which is the only vanilla emulator. Apparently alot of things got broken when they downgraded the Mangos to vanilla, check Aieris post above.

I know you want different type of answers, but i'm not right person. I don't know much about WoW emulators, but i still think that my answers are enough for understanding why is it hard to properly script vanilla content and why newer emulators haven't got it properly scripted.

But newer emulators have got it alot better scripted than the older ones, even if they dont even care about 1-60 content. Compare that to Kronos that have to spend years working on the core to get it to where it is today.
Anyway, thanks for your answers and input!

I still hope someone can give me some more in depth answers to my OP, or a link

Interesting topic, hopefully people with the know how provide some answers. As far as my experience I see the same bugs regardless of server. Some big.. most minor.

Thanks! I hope to learn more about this as well!:yes:

 

[dagid4]

But they are working alot better than Mangos-zero does in its base state vs their basic state, that was my point.

If that is your point, then OK. It seems logical that newer emulators are better scripted, but we are still comparing two or more server emulators in their base state.

If we compare one of them with reatil, or Kronos (just for vanilla content) for example, then you will see that they are bad scripted (i mean content such as quests, deungeons, etc. not gaming mechanics).

tried 2 wrath servers and both had working vanilla quests.

:biggrin: Sorry, but this is bullshit and you can't proof that. Even on Kronos there are still quests which are not working.

 

[Aieris]

Well, the Trinity Core have some things implemented in better way.. Taht's why there was Trinity zero as first vanilla emu. Mangos zero was developed when trinity creators forbid to develop vanilla core based on downgraded trinity. Then yehonay contacted Vladimir and he have done the same with Mangos. I gues, that after some digging, you will be able to find Trinity zero as well.

To the bugs. Even basic mangos zero have decently working quests, but when you start to fix other things (like class and spell mechanics), you will discover, that it have so many workarounds and improper implementations, that you have to rewrite it to be able to reproduce retail behavior. And when you do this, you basicaly mess all other things based on this. That's why Kronos is now worse in some ways than it was year ago.
The same aplyes on basic Mangos Zero. WotLK mangos was based on something, it was downgraded and rewrited to work with Vanilla client, but vanilla is missing many features of WotLK and so things, that used to work with WotLK will not work now.

 

[Magnifican]

:biggrin: Sorry, but this is bullshit and you can't proof that. Even on Kronos there are still quests which are not working.

Alright, you obviously dont understand what im trying to say so I give up. I didnt say there werent any bugs or that "everything" is working.. But thanks for your input nontheless.

[...]

Thanks for the info Aieris! Helps to clear some things out about mangos-zero downgrade and why things break etc. If you have the time on your hands, feel free to answer some other questions in the OP. You seem to know quite alot so would appreciate your input! :yes:

 

[dagid4]

Alright, you obviously dont understand what im trying to say so I give up. I didnt say there werent any bugs or that "everything" is working.. But thanks for your input nontheless.

Actually i really don't know what are you trying to say. You were asking:

Lets say a new server opens up with TrinityCore 3.3.5 for example, would they have to go back to develop vanilla content for years like Kronos have done, then polish BC content for years like CoreCraft have done, then also Wotlk content for years?

Yes, they have to go back to develop vanilla content for years like Kronos have done. (If this is not answer to your question, than i will give it up too.) If you want to have working vanilla content, you must do the hard work script precisely all not scripted/bugged quests just like Kronos did. Better server core only make it easier. Almost every private WoTLK server has got bugged lot of quests, for example escort quests, but i can be more specific:

The Attack!
The Missing Diplomat chain
Ammo for Rumbleshot
...

How come there are so many Wotlk servers out there? Do they all have crappy (bugged) vanilla content?

Almost all my answers were to this question, so don't tell me that you weren't asking this.

Or is it like i've seen some posts on the web saying that with emulators like TrinityCore the vanilla content is already properly scripted and almost bugfree to begin with?

These posts are just lies. If there were about 5 bugged quests i would say nothing. I'm speaking general so i can't give you concrete numbers, but i think there is minimum 30 hardly bugged vanilla quests on almost every private WoTLk server and im not counting lesser bugged quests which will be maybe every fifth to tenth quest. I also think that im reserved here, because if you look at Kronos bugtracker, you will see 5376 records.

What is my point ? It makes me angry, if you say:

tried 2 wrath servers and both had working vanilla quests.

If you read other comments in this topic, you will see this:

Most servers with expansions don't care about lower content and so it's in basic state.

As far as my experience I see the same bugs regardless of server.

So stop saying that server emulators in their base state has got "98% percent working" (i think and it is just my estimation that it is like 60%) vanilla content and i will stop reacting to your topic. :smile:

 

[Magnifican]

...

Yeye, now stop derailing my thread.. I asked alot of other questions in the OP as well, and you said yourself that you didnt know alot of emulators, so let someone who does answer please. Aieris have alot of interesting answers as to why mangos have alot of things that broke in the downgrading process, which makes the stuff that wasnt downgraded.... not broken?
I never said anything about 98% working either, thats something you just made up. I did say "working quests", which was not all that specified, but on those 2 servers I was on the vanilla quests that I did while levling up was indeed working. These posts i've read about TrinityCore might all be lies for sure, it doesnt really matter anyway. I dont want the focus of this thread to switch to this nonsense anymore, in the OP I made had bunch of other questions and your posts so far doesnt help me understand the matter any better, so perhaps leave it to others.

 

[Cision]

Check out cMangos, they have re-written alot of code.

 

[Aieris]

...

I see only one more question to answer.
You wonder why WotLK or TBC servers are more polished? Well, in 2005/2006, something called mangos was created, It was answer to WoWemu lua emulator and it aimed to emulate WoW in "the proper way". However, it was never finished (i think that you still can find its latest version, mangos 0.12). The reason why it was not finished was TBC expansion. The new emu for TBC was developed from mangos 0.12 and vanilla version was left. During TBC, Some ppl were not satisfied with mangos and so they took it and they created Trinity Core. From then, these two emulators exist abreast. Developed for each new expansion by different people.

As I have sayed above, the old emulator was left for many years without any development and when idea of creating vanilla private servers came, some developers discovered, that it will be much easyer to downgrade WotLK emu rather than continue in development of the old one, because the old one had about 1.5 year of development behind it while WotLK one had 4-5 years.

 

[tristan]

I see only one more question to answer.
You wonder why WotLK or TBC servers are more polished? Well, in 2005/2006, something called mangos was created, It was answer to WoWemu lua emulator and it aimed to emulate WoW in "the proper way". However, it was never finished (i think that you still can find its latest version, mangos 0.12). The reason why it was not finished was TBC expansion. The new emu for TBC was developed from mangos 0.12 and vanilla version was left. During TBC, Some ppl were not satisfied with mangos and so they took it and they created Trinity Core. From then, these two emulators exist abreast. Developed for each new expansion by different people.

As I have sayed above, the old emulator was left for many years without any development and when idea of creating vanilla private servers came, some developers discovered, that it will be much easyer to downgrade WotLK emu rather than continue in development of the old one, because the old one had about 1.5 year of development behind it while WotLK one had 4-5 years.

You forgot Ascent and Antrix emulators which were very popular alternatives for Mangos, but well, I think it will be adding more shit to the story. Your post is a good resume.

 

[Aieris]

The point was, that Mangos zero is from familly of vanilla/tbc/wotlk the youngest one.

 

[Magnifican]

You wonder why WotLK or TBC servers are more polished? Well, in 2005/2006, something called mangos was created, It was answer to WoWemu lua emulator and it aimed to emulate WoW in "the proper way". However, it was never finished (i think that you still can find its latest version, mangos 0.12). The reason why it was not finished was TBC expansion. The new emu for TBC was developed from mangos 0.12 and vanilla version was left. During TBC, Some ppl were not satisfied with mangos and so they took it and they created Trinity Core. From then, these two emulators exist abreast. Developed for each new expansion by different people.

As I have sayed above, the old emulator was left for many years without any development and when idea of creating vanilla private servers came, some developers discovered, that it will be much easyer to downgrade WotLK emu rather than continue in development of the old one, because the old one had about 1.5 year of development behind it while WotLK one had 4-5 years.

Thanks alot for your answers once again Aieris!

I got some follow up questions based on my OP and your posts though. Based on your explaination, the people who used the later cores would then indeed have a more stable base to work with, so the posts about TrinityCore would not be totally lying when they state its more bugfree, I.e the core havent gone thru that downgrading that you spoke of. But this only raises my respect for Kronos because that means they got even more hard work and unstable things to work with at the start, and now got it to where we are today, thats pretty cool.
The question the first part of my OP was about was really "backward compability", as I said. Would later cores handle previous content better as a base to start with, this would indeed be the case since they take parts from previous developed cores and make new ones, just like you explained. Hypothetical example was, would we be able to raid MC on Twinstar's Hyperion server like its suppose to be in wrath?

I see only one more question to answer.

No no, there are many more! :biggrin: I also asked questions about the future of emulation here:

Also about the future. How would a core be able to handle WoD? This expansion have sooo many scripted quest with events, nearly every damn NPC starts to talk (mostly voiceless but many of them even have voiceovers) when you trigger a quest, it has heavy scripted raids with so many mechanics in them, like using the environment around you to trigger another event etc. I see Wrath servers having problems with phasing (wrathgate event and Battle of Undercity dont work on most wrath servers), how would a WoD server handle the garrisons and other heavy phasing, will it be possible? I have yet to try out a cata/mop/wod private server, so I have no idea what they look like. Again im a big noob on these things so some enlightenment would be great! ^_^

Maybe you dont have input about this? Maybe someone else does. You guys think it'll be possible?

Oh, and these questions too!

And back to Kronos. In the future if Kronos succeeds and stays with a healthy community, I heard that they might open up a TBC server for us to continue our adventure on. If that would happen, how would the transformation process work? Like, I assume we would keep all of our characters, proffs, gear etc (would be a bit of a turnoff otherwise), but would we still be using Mangos as core for BC or a new core entirely? Would that require years of development to be made? Or will we use the already established BC server that Twinstar have? Or a "copy" of that work?