Fully randomize plaguebloom spawn 2.0
- Thread starter Brezel
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Chero
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- Jul 11, 2010
Indeed, I understand that. Then you can answer the OP. ^^
Spazztastic
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The sad thing is though is that problems are fixed based on developer whim, which is respectable considering the free to play status
BUT the people saying "use the bug tracker" must realize that bugs are on the tracker for large amounts of time (months, even years) as unfixed, even some with actual confirmed status. Vote points don't really seem to influence fixes.
Forgive the playerbase if we don't take the bugtracker as seriously as the project tells us to.
For example I remember jonezy being so triumphant of using perplexity's gank footage to fix an ancient warrior bug, and I still remember almost every time I use intimidating shout.
anyway the harder the forum cries, the more likely change happens.
BUT the people saying "use the bug tracker" must realize that bugs are on the tracker for large amounts of time (months, even years) as unfixed, even some with actual confirmed status. Vote points don't really seem to influence fixes.
Forgive the playerbase if we don't take the bugtracker as seriously as the project tells us to.
For example I remember jonezy being so triumphant of using perplexity's gank footage to fix an ancient warrior bug, and I still remember almost every time I use intimidating shout.
anyway the harder the forum cries, the more likely change happens.
Buff PB spawns woooooohooooo
Considering it was like that from the begining of the server, i thought it was just a Kronos thing and not a bug. Espiecially because i got reported for this and GM didnt seem to care : https://forum.twinstar.cz/showthread.php/114186-Brochette-Other?p=833714&viewfull=1#post833714
lanevegame
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- Jun 18, 2015
The GM said:
So he didn't mention anything about it being or not being a bug abuse, if I understand it correctly.
The last thing anyone can accuse me of is not caring. If I didn't care I wouldn't spend well over 40 hours a week volunteering behind the scenes.
You know when players who get banned come out and claim that they're innocent? in 99% of cases it's all b.s. While we're not a courtroom, we only issue bans when we have enough evidence beyond a shadow of a doubt that action is needed. The last thing any of the staff want to do is close an account of someone who is in fact innocent. I won't say that never happens because no system is entirely perfect, and we don't have unlimited resources to prove all stories players tell us. But we "error" on the side of caution whenever possible.
You misunderstood me, i wanted to say that you seeing a report on this particular "bug" 1y ago (i was camping the fixed plaguebloom for months before that) and not fixing it or talking about it, implied to me that it was a normal behavior of the Plaguebloom fixed respawn. Everyone since then figured it out, and was/are camping those fixed spawns, so i really thought it was intended. If i felt it was a bug, i would have use the bug tracker. That's why i created a suggestion, to change Kronos policy about it. In the end, it appeard it was a bug which could have been fixed earlier and easily if we have pointed it out more clearly.
I
insec
Guest
I don't want to burst your bubble but your bug tracker is flawed. When an issue that was raised 10 months ago gets insta closed by a hot-headed cuck (Filvorja) who deletes peoples comments in a bug report but is insta-confirmed when it's reposted 10 months later by yourself, it kinda makes people lose interest in actually helping out.
https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?issue=10077 Original (Not a bug)
https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?issue=10919#comments reposted 10 months later w/ different wording (Confirmed)
This is a fundamental game-changing ability that has plagued one of the most played Classes for such a long time.
Small things are ignored too, like the Peasemold bug report that was ignored for 6 months https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?issue=9475&highlight=gates.
Or take Naxx PTR as an example. We were supposed to report bugs, and we documented them and had the full intention to, but when we spend the time to make a post and then it's instantly marked a duplicate, but the report it's a duplicate of is for "internal viewing only" then what the fuck are people supposed to do? Just report every damn thing that's out of place only to have it canceled cuz there's a hidden report somewhere that we can't even see the contents of?
You want to know why most of the bugs in Naxx were reported by Bazzil and whoever else is testing? Because after realizing you just wasted your time making a duplicate report for the 3rd wing in a row you kinda don't feel like spending the rest of your day reporting all the other shit just to have that stamped as a duplicate as well.
Sometimes bitching on the forums is the only way to get your attention nibba.
djevel44
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- Feb 5, 2013
by the looks of it its not much about the lack of willingness to help from you insec, more like you try and someone higher than you simply squish you when you do try, in their little bubble of powertrip and dont give a shit about what you have to say, me my self been on this server before they even restarted it for years ago and mainly been lurking on the forums,
checking posts and so on main problem i seen is some of the staff do/try their best and some of them running around on their personal power trip and simply abusing their powers.
Yes you could say we play for free so we dont got a shit we should say, but if thats the case just close the forums and bug tracker but if you do agree the players should have a say, then take a look at the staff to when posts like this happends and check on the history of the staff thats in question dont just enrage and close stuff try taking a look on both sides.
Dont get me wrong i know its alot of rotten eggs on player side to wich is full of it but through the years of being here i seen both sides having their rotten eggs whit staff usualy power trips, whit players usualy in the way of false info like other servers is better go there and there and so on.
Is it not better to report something and have it marked as duplicate so you know that we are aware of the issue? We can't fix things if they're never reported. So with your lack of willingness to communicate with the developers and testers you're not actually helping yourself or the community. If you go with the mindset of "I'm not gonna report it, it's just gonna get closed and I'm going to waste my time" you're risking the report not being a duplicate of an internal report and therefore it will never get fixed, and who's fault is it? Yours for not making the report. Who are you going to blame? Us. Not all reports are marked as internal by us either. Players can make internal reports if they're sharing content they don't want other players to see.
No effort goes to waste anyway, extra information about the bugs is a great help, even if your report is marked as "Duplicate" the information isn't redundant. The tag is purely there for our convenience, so that we don't have multiple entries of the same bug.
The idea of the bugtracker is so you can help the staff to make the server better. Can I also bring your attention to the rules of the server?
T. Players are obligated to report any bugs in the game via the BugTracker. Failing to do so or abusing the bug will be punished based on the discretion of the Kronos Team. Bugs can only be reported via the bug tracker, not via in game tickets. Bugs submitted via in game tickets will be deleted without reply and may go unresolved, as a result it will take longer for a fix to be implemented.
By playing on the server you basically say "If I find a problem I WILL report it." Your lack of co-operation in this matter is actually breaking this rule, just an FYI.
Hope i've explained this well.
djevel44
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- Feb 5, 2013
fenissa FYI copy pasting rules isnt a answer to what he commented you simply tap danced around the subject, instead of not answering at all and play ignorant to what he commented why not take up the issue?
like problem whit bug tracker whit "internal viewing only" here you could actualy take it up whit the rest and maybe do something about it and maybe change it so everyone can see all bugg reports so this problem dont come up again, not to mention it would not waste players time reporting buggs or waste the staffs time having to repetedly click duplicate on every report.
next problem he brought up staff who cancel bugg reports and saying its not a bugg even if it is a bugg and same staff member agree it is a bugg secound its another staff member who put up the same bugg.
So to your last comment "Hope i've explained this well." no you did not explaine that well, you simply answered 10-20% about what he brought up.
Yes insec could worded him self better whit some of the insults he added, but he did bring up some problems that could be dealth whit to make it better for the staff and for players.
There's reasons why we have internal bug reports. Players don't want their content to be shown, we don't want the community to know every single detail about all of the fights, we don't want other projects using our research that we worked hard to find. You know there's tons of different reasons. To show everyone every bug report we have would be a complete disaster.
Without naming any projects, we'll say one has a bugged quest and they go "Oh, How do we fix it" They come straight to our bugtracker and have all the information they can ever dream of. What do we get for this? Nothing. We have no reason to do it.
It's as if you ignored my point exactly when I said no effort is wasted by either party. The information in a bugreport marked as a duplicate is still used as part of our development and testing. And you're worried about it taking one of us 10 seconds to mark something as duplicate? All that's done in the internal report is the duplicate report is linked so that we can look at all of them. No research goes to waste.
As for the bugreports being marked differently. The more recent bug report contains another point as well as the one about the stun, the bugreport could have been marked as confirmed for that point but you're tunnelvisioning straight on that one point. You've also said that in one report a staff member marked as not a bug and then in another one, same staff member marked as confirmed. In the example you linked that is not even true. Filvorja marked the first bug report as not a bug and Chero confirmed the second report. In the first one Chero did not say it was not a bug, he merely asked the community about the mechanic of the spell, and filvorja hasn't even commented in the second bugreport, so I do'nt see where you're seeing this. In other reports it could be a misunderstanding of the way it's worded and another report makes it a lot more clear. But you're not even thinking from our perspective, people try to word things to make their class buffed. You have to see it how we see it to understand.
Without naming any projects, we'll say one has a bugged quest and they go "Oh, How do we fix it" They come straight to our bugtracker and have all the information they can ever dream of. What do we get for this? Nothing. We have no reason to do it.
It's as if you ignored my point exactly when I said no effort is wasted by either party. The information in a bugreport marked as a duplicate is still used as part of our development and testing. And you're worried about it taking one of us 10 seconds to mark something as duplicate? All that's done in the internal report is the duplicate report is linked so that we can look at all of them. No research goes to waste.
As for the bugreports being marked differently. The more recent bug report contains another point as well as the one about the stun, the bugreport could have been marked as confirmed for that point but you're tunnelvisioning straight on that one point. You've also said that in one report a staff member marked as not a bug and then in another one, same staff member marked as confirmed. In the example you linked that is not even true. Filvorja marked the first bug report as not a bug and Chero confirmed the second report. In the first one Chero did not say it was not a bug, he merely asked the community about the mechanic of the spell, and filvorja hasn't even commented in the second bugreport, so I do'nt see where you're seeing this. In other reports it could be a misunderstanding of the way it's worded and another report makes it a lot more clear. But you're not even thinking from our perspective, people try to word things to make their class buffed. You have to see it how we see it to understand.
djevel44
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- Feb 5, 2013
to first thing you pointed out good to know i did not think of it that way so yes your right there but i will also stand by what i said, lets make a example its a bugg that needs to be hidden then you hide it like you would anyway, then copy paste add it to bugg tracker whitout much info other than its being fixed like headlines "plagueblood spawn bugg" info "its hidden in internal but we working on it" atleast that way people know and can go on whit finding other buggs.
it might take 10 sec to click duplicate, but depending on how well you report a bugg it could take pretty long, so i will ask you the same to see it from our point to.
As for the last point you made out whit tunnel vision yes i tunneled on one thing wont deny that, but i seen things like that happend before (not alot) but i seen it, to that point im simply asking if your not sure about it ask around instead of smacking not a bug on it got great people on this server and we got a great staff wouldnt hurt to ask another just to make sure.
All in all must say this was a way better reply than the first got to put my self in your shoes to whit the info you gave so thanks for that!
Overall the server runs okay, but i just read a new bug report that fits perfectly into this conversation btw.
It's been obvious for a long time that Razorgore and some other bosses stach their melee attacks while casting their spells, and then unleash 4-6 melee autoattacks on the main target. This got brought up a few times, and one day was discussed in General Discord channel with participation from Cardigel/Bazzil as well. People there got mocked in a way for bringing it up in there, even the smart black dude meme got brought up with "spots a problem, uses the bug tracker". ( Timestamp 16.07.2017 Bazzil, you'll find it discord history. ) Takeaway from that conversation overall. It's a bug, it's stupid, report it after being mocked for bringing it up somewhere else then the tracker.
Next day a report on the bug tracker gets made: https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?issue=10894
Sure, not the best ticket ever seen, but especially after taking part in the conversation the day before, it should be clear that something is up and it is in the interest of the server to fix it. Nope, just gets canceled without any comment or any note or anything.
So, the person writing the first ticket sets away more time, and writes a way better one in hopes of getting something fixed.
https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?issue=10896&highlight=razorgore
A week later something is supposed to be fixed, when asked if fix worked, people say no. The mistake here is that out of the 4 bosses listed there, someone else bring up another boss that has this ability, gets talked down to because of that, ticket is pending ever since...
Perhaps this will get better treatment this time ( seeing as it being done by Fei this time ), but also no information that this exact pattern didn't happen back in the days, so unlikely. https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?issue=11386.
And now you want to tell me that starting to write tickets about the things that got broken in the last 4 weeks alone on Kronos is a good investment of time? If you play the game, you notice things breaking left and right it feels. [ BWL Dragontrahsmobsvulnerability doesnt work anymore (4 school still stifled, last one just does normal damage, Chromaggus with same ability works though) ; AQ20 Trash on way to Moan spawns once you enter the water, is not up earlier the way it should be and was for 60+ weeks; Ossirian crystals still not fixed, but now he also only gets a vulnerability roughly every second crystal, not like usual and 60+ weeks before every crystal; Ossirian one shotting people even after vulnerability is applied to him; Dragon tail swipe areas are huge compared to what they were the last 2 years, likely a model error ]
Edit: Sorry for sounding aggressive here, but what do you expect? And it is not about wanting a fix instantly. I, and surely most rational people know, time is scarse, esp. with Naxx release date set. But saying it's on the players is also not fair. Make a status like "will be fixed soonish" and everyone is happy and can manage for a while.
It's been obvious for a long time that Razorgore and some other bosses stach their melee attacks while casting their spells, and then unleash 4-6 melee autoattacks on the main target. This got brought up a few times, and one day was discussed in General Discord channel with participation from Cardigel/Bazzil as well. People there got mocked in a way for bringing it up in there, even the smart black dude meme got brought up with "spots a problem, uses the bug tracker". ( Timestamp 16.07.2017 Bazzil, you'll find it discord history. ) Takeaway from that conversation overall. It's a bug, it's stupid, report it after being mocked for bringing it up somewhere else then the tracker.
Next day a report on the bug tracker gets made: https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?issue=10894
Sure, not the best ticket ever seen, but especially after taking part in the conversation the day before, it should be clear that something is up and it is in the interest of the server to fix it. Nope, just gets canceled without any comment or any note or anything.
So, the person writing the first ticket sets away more time, and writes a way better one in hopes of getting something fixed.
https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?issue=10896&highlight=razorgore
A week later something is supposed to be fixed, when asked if fix worked, people say no. The mistake here is that out of the 4 bosses listed there, someone else bring up another boss that has this ability, gets talked down to because of that, ticket is pending ever since...
Perhaps this will get better treatment this time ( seeing as it being done by Fei this time ), but also no information that this exact pattern didn't happen back in the days, so unlikely. https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?issue=11386.
And now you want to tell me that starting to write tickets about the things that got broken in the last 4 weeks alone on Kronos is a good investment of time? If you play the game, you notice things breaking left and right it feels. [ BWL Dragontrahsmobsvulnerability doesnt work anymore (4 school still stifled, last one just does normal damage, Chromaggus with same ability works though) ; AQ20 Trash on way to Moan spawns once you enter the water, is not up earlier the way it should be and was for 60+ weeks; Ossirian crystals still not fixed, but now he also only gets a vulnerability roughly every second crystal, not like usual and 60+ weeks before every crystal; Ossirian one shotting people even after vulnerability is applied to him; Dragon tail swipe areas are huge compared to what they were the last 2 years, likely a model error ]
Edit: Sorry for sounding aggressive here, but what do you expect? And it is not about wanting a fix instantly. I, and surely most rational people know, time is scarse, esp. with Naxx release date set. But saying it's on the players is also not fair. Make a status like "will be fixed soonish" and everyone is happy and can manage for a while.
Last edited:
Bazzil
New Member
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- Jan 25, 2016
He cancelled the report himself. You can see that by opening the 'status changes' tab.
This is the typical back-and-forth. Bottomline is the way we deal with bugs doesn't change. It's been, and will always be the bug tracker. Everytime you choose to use the bug tracker you take the chance that it takes a long time before something gets done, and that something might not get done at all. Not using the bug tracker at all you increase the probability of those outcomes significantly. There is no way around it. It all comes down to:
- The relevance and quality of the sources provided in the report
- Your level of detail in describing what is the problem and when/why/how it occurs
- Your persistance in returning to issues you care about and bump them
- Your interest in providing more information when this is asked for
- Providing feedback to the report when a fix is applied to the live server
Yall may be doing the same thing always for the bug tracker doesn’t mean people enjoy it. I’ve heard a decent amount of complaints for the bug tracker but I cannot say much of it myself since I don’t use the bug tracker often at all. But that may be due to the stories I’ve heard.
I have only good experience with bug tracker. I have reported hundreds of bugs and lot of them got fixed sooner or later. I don't expect my bugs to be fixed asap nor to be praised for reporting crucial things. And I know that devs will fix what they know how to fix or what they decide is realy important.
Simply, I have never before seen better bug tracking system. This one allows you not only report a bug but also to discuss problems with other players and find proper solutions. I still don't get this outrage. Why? Why don't you just make one detailed list on bug tracker and wait for someone who will be willing to fix it? Have you considered option that devs simply don't have a time to fix that? Or that they may not know how to fix it? Or that fixing it will be too complex and it will take week or month and so they decide that it is better to put it aside for now and continue on developing new content?
One nice example is a bug, that allows you to dissapear from the game world by alt+f4. It was reported and evidence was found how it should work. It was sayed nearly two years ago, that there is work being done on proper fix for this, but it required rewriting of entire session handling system and obviously, it was too complex to do that it is still not properly fixed two years from report. But why complain? When they will know how to fix it, they will do it, untill then, I can either join the team and fix it myself or wait.
Simply, I have never before seen better bug tracking system. This one allows you not only report a bug but also to discuss problems with other players and find proper solutions. I still don't get this outrage. Why? Why don't you just make one detailed list on bug tracker and wait for someone who will be willing to fix it? Have you considered option that devs simply don't have a time to fix that? Or that they may not know how to fix it? Or that fixing it will be too complex and it will take week or month and so they decide that it is better to put it aside for now and continue on developing new content?
One nice example is a bug, that allows you to dissapear from the game world by alt+f4. It was reported and evidence was found how it should work. It was sayed nearly two years ago, that there is work being done on proper fix for this, but it required rewriting of entire session handling system and obviously, it was too complex to do that it is still not properly fixed two years from report. But why complain? When they will know how to fix it, they will do it, untill then, I can either join the team and fix it myself or wait.
NotSachi
Authorized
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- Oct 28, 2015
I mean at the base level you're already requiring your users to know what is bugged and what not. On top of that this server has made many deliberate non blizzlike changes to cause further confusion on that. Just because you notice a static spawn of a herb doesn't mean you know that that's not supposed to happen. But a user might reason that it was deliberate (es evidenced in this thread).
Another part of the problem is probably the heavy burden of evidence you put on your users. It's one thing for users to go: "oh this is probably broken" but then the next step to making the actual bug report, testing and finding the evidence is a big barrier. There are not many people willing to invest hours to find evidence that might not even be possible to find just to fix some minor or major issue. Take these herb spawns for example. It's easy to notice that perhaps something was off with plaguebloom spawns, but actually going out of your way to find and prove that there weren't any static plaguebloom spawns... good luck. The fact that this was fixed without any actual evidence provided supports what I'm saying.
Kronos also has a relatively small community to begin with. 1% of elysium's community reporting bugs is going to give a lot more of a thorough combing than 1% of kronos' population.
Add to that that for every update with fixes, random shit breaks. It's something that generates weariness and complacency with your community towards their willingness to get stuff fixed. People will be quicker to use that mindset that "if it's manageable, we'll deal with it". For example the weird way stuff spawns in AQ20 in Moam's area. (Especially since, as said the community is small which results in the same people making the reports.
The end result is a lot of bugs just never make it to the devs. I'm not trying to blame you, nor do I think the bug tracker is a bad system. I'm just trying to frame the problem of disparity between how users are experiencing bugs and bugs not getting fixed and devs just scraping their work of the tracker. It gives a feeling that you are out of touch with your community even though from your point you are probably doing your best to fix everything you come across.
I'm not sure if any devs actually actively play and raid on kronos, but if you don't you should honestly try to spend some of the time you do deving, playing in stead so you know what lives with your community and you'll probably run into a WEALTH of bugs that never get reported.
It's probably in your best interest to make bug reporting more accessible somehow, though I can't say I have any real solution for you at this time sorry ^^.
Another part of the problem is probably the heavy burden of evidence you put on your users. It's one thing for users to go: "oh this is probably broken" but then the next step to making the actual bug report, testing and finding the evidence is a big barrier. There are not many people willing to invest hours to find evidence that might not even be possible to find just to fix some minor or major issue. Take these herb spawns for example. It's easy to notice that perhaps something was off with plaguebloom spawns, but actually going out of your way to find and prove that there weren't any static plaguebloom spawns... good luck. The fact that this was fixed without any actual evidence provided supports what I'm saying.
Kronos also has a relatively small community to begin with. 1% of elysium's community reporting bugs is going to give a lot more of a thorough combing than 1% of kronos' population.
Add to that that for every update with fixes, random shit breaks. It's something that generates weariness and complacency with your community towards their willingness to get stuff fixed. People will be quicker to use that mindset that "if it's manageable, we'll deal with it". For example the weird way stuff spawns in AQ20 in Moam's area. (Especially since, as said the community is small which results in the same people making the reports.
The end result is a lot of bugs just never make it to the devs. I'm not trying to blame you, nor do I think the bug tracker is a bad system. I'm just trying to frame the problem of disparity between how users are experiencing bugs and bugs not getting fixed and devs just scraping their work of the tracker. It gives a feeling that you are out of touch with your community even though from your point you are probably doing your best to fix everything you come across.
I'm not sure if any devs actually actively play and raid on kronos, but if you don't you should honestly try to spend some of the time you do deving, playing in stead so you know what lives with your community and you'll probably run into a WEALTH of bugs that never get reported.
It's probably in your best interest to make bug reporting more accessible somehow, though I can't say I have any real solution for you at this time sorry ^^.
bl4ckc0d3r
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- May 22, 2015
Since Razorgore has been mentioned, I will use it as an example of where developer team fails to help players with testing and bug reporting. If I am wrong about the following, please correct me.
Let us take as an example the issue where Razorgore can hit a player up to 9 times after casting volley or conflagrate. Has any developer actually taken a look in the Razorgore script to check if Razorgore unleashing 9 hits is something that is coded into the server? Instead, conversation about it typically goes along the lines of:
"find a source for your claims that he shouldn't thrash"
"even if he should, why the hell is he hitting 9 times?"
"find a source that he shouldn't hit 9 times"
In other words "stop bothering me, don't give a damn about your Razorgore". Again, correct me if I missed it and players have actually been given proper information of what kind of behavior is INTENDED for Razorgore on Kronos. But if they had, we wouldn't see so many bug reports on the issue, I would assume.
So... can a dev go and glance over the script and give the answer to the few players that still care and want to help fix bugs, so that players know whether they should simply report that he is doing more hits than he should, or whether they need to spend hours (yes, literally hours) watching 50 videos from 2005 and 2006 in order to prove that in none of those videos there were multiple hits on the tank?
Keeping too many secrets may be okay from the security point, Fenissa. But leading developers and testers need to be rational about it and know when they stop making sense.
Let us take as an example the issue where Razorgore can hit a player up to 9 times after casting volley or conflagrate. Has any developer actually taken a look in the Razorgore script to check if Razorgore unleashing 9 hits is something that is coded into the server? Instead, conversation about it typically goes along the lines of:
"find a source for your claims that he shouldn't thrash"
"even if he should, why the hell is he hitting 9 times?"
"find a source that he shouldn't hit 9 times"
In other words "stop bothering me, don't give a damn about your Razorgore". Again, correct me if I missed it and players have actually been given proper information of what kind of behavior is INTENDED for Razorgore on Kronos. But if they had, we wouldn't see so many bug reports on the issue, I would assume.
So... can a dev go and glance over the script and give the answer to the few players that still care and want to help fix bugs, so that players know whether they should simply report that he is doing more hits than he should, or whether they need to spend hours (yes, literally hours) watching 50 videos from 2005 and 2006 in order to prove that in none of those videos there were multiple hits on the tank?
Keeping too many secrets may be okay from the security point, Fenissa. But leading developers and testers need to be rational about it and know when they stop making sense.
bawa
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- Nov 8, 2015
save magnotank :tank: