Paladin Leveling: Crusader VS Command

[gotmilk0112]

Which is better for leveling? I've tried both, and while they have their pros and cons, Seal of the Crusader seems to be much more consistent.

With Seal of Command (and Crusader judgement), it's like getting an extra weapon swing each time it procs. But, being a proc, it's random to an extent (yes I know it's proc-per-minute) so you don't always get it, and it can be frustrating sometimes.

With Crusader, you get that +40% swing speed no matter what, and on top of that, you use much less mana due to not having to judge->reseal, so you never have to drink. Just throw on Crusader and autoattack, and then heal up after combat. Any mana you spend on heals will be regen'd while you're autoattacking.

I compared my kill speeds with both (I have the FuBar addon that tracks your combat time) and with both methods, I had mostly similar kill times. Command would kill much faster if I got lucky with procs, but that didn't happen often. Crusader was much more consistent with its kill times.

So...should I just go with Crusader? I like the simpler rotation (seal -> autoattack) and not having to drink. And once I hit 34 I'll be respeccing Reckoning, so I'll be using Crusader anyways.

 

[frederik]

It depends on your weapon. If you have a fast weapon use Seal of the Crusader. But if you have a slow weapon like Corpsemaker Seal of Command would be the better choice. Although on lower levels it does not make much of a difference due to the bugged state of Seal of Crusader currently. The damage you deal with each swing should be reduced when using it. This does not work properly now, which makes it overpowered on Kronos due to the huge AP and attack speed boost. See the bug report for details: https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?issue=4904

Also as you can see in the bug report the damage you deal is reduced when Seal of the Crusader fades from you. This is also the case when you use Judgement with it. So if you are using Seal of Command to compare it to Seal of the Crusader, don't use Judgement of the Crusader in the beginning of the fight as your damage will be reduced.

I hope the that is getting fixed soon. I can tell you that later on though you kill way faster with Seal of Command if you have the right weapon for it. Even if you compare it to the bugged version of Crusader. I especially started to notice that when I got Stoneslayer back then. On lower levels though the difference is not as much (as you did notice).

As soon as Crusader is fixed there will be no comparison though, Command will the way to go with slow weapons. Other than for its debuff you will rarely use Crusader. With fast weapons Seal of Righteousness would be the better choice then.

 

[gotmilk0112]

I've currently got Verigan's Fist (3.2 speed), and I'm finding Crusader to be on par with Command, if not better due to being a flat +40% attack speed, instead of a semi-random damage proc.

It's only when I get 2 (or more) Command procs, that Command catches up to Crusader's kill speed. But yeah, it's not that big of a difference, and there's a lot of RNG with dodge/parry/miss for both seals.

So just stick with Crusader for now? I do enjoy just being able to autoattack and alt-tab, with the added bonus of much lower mana usage.

 

[frederik]

I've currently got Verigan's Fist (3.2 speed), and I'm finding Crusader to be on par with Command, if not better due to being a flat +40% attack speed, instead of a semi-random damage proc.

It's only when I get 2 (or more) Command procs, that Command catches up to Crusader's kill speed. But yeah, it's not that big of a difference, and there's a lot of RNG with dodge/parry/miss for both seals.

So just stick with Crusader for now? I do enjoy just being able to autoattack and alt-tab, with the added bonus of much lower mana usage.

For now just stick with it if killspeed is the same. Later on Seal of Command will take the upper hand, even with Seal of the Crusader being unfixed. So keep testing it. Assuming that you have a weapon suitable for Seal of Command (one slower than 3.2 I'd say) of course.
And don't forget that Judgement of the Crusader will reduce the damage you deal with Command afterwards. So test Command without it as long as Crusader isn't being fixed. In the bug report somebody wrote that they found out the formula and how it worked back then. So I guess it will be fixed soon.

Regarding mana cost Crusader will get more expensive than Command later on too. You can always use Rank 1 Command. The proc damage is the same, just the Judgement damage differs. But you always have to use the highest rank of Crusader to benefit in the same way. You can auto attack and alt+tab with Command as well. Usually you don't spam Judgement of Command anyway to preserve mana.

 

[gotmilk0112]

And don't forget that Judgement of the Crusader will reduce the damage you deal with Command afterwards. So test Command without it as long as Crusader isn't being fixed. In the bug report somebody wrote that they found out the formula and how it worked back then. So I guess it will be fixed soon.

Are you sure? Because no matter what I do:

Command by itself -> autoattack

Crusader -> Judge -> Command -> autoattack

I'm not noticing any difference in my autoattack damage.

You can auto attack and alt+tab with Command as well. Usually you don't spam Judgement of Command anyway to preserve mana.

I meant that with Crusader, you just autoattack and that's it, whereas with Command, you have to judge and re-seal first.

 

[frederik]

Are you sure? Because no matter what I do:

Command by itself -> autoattack

Crusader -> Judge -> Command -> autoattack

I'm not noticing any difference in my autoattack damage.

Maybe it got fixed already (the status of the bug report would say so though)? I don't know. It's been a few days since I played on my paladin. I will quote Psojed on this (he wrote it in the bug report). You can repeat the steps and see whether it still is happening for you.

Status changed from Need Retest to Confirmed.

I confirmed the bug on live. It doesn't affect just attack power buffs, it affects any buff that has an effect on your damage, including Vengeance proc.

Steps to reproduce:
1) Note your basic damage in the character screen.
2) Blessing of Might yourself.
3) Activate Seal of Crusader, then right click it (or judge it). Blessing of Might stays active.
4) Notice your basic damage in the character screen will be lower than in the step 1, while it should be higher due to BoM being active.
5) Dispel Blessing of Might, your damage will return to normal.

The same thing happens with Vengeance proc.

The bug is not visual only, it actually lowers your damage output. Tested as Unarmed to remove damage ranges.

Unarmed Damage with BoM was 79.
Unarmed Damage with BoM+SoCr was 82.
Unarmed Damage with BoM after SoCr faded was 56.

So your white damage should be reduced. Which effects Command procs as well.

I meant that with Crusader, you just autoattack and that's it, whereas with Command, you have to judge and re-seal first.

You don't have to judge Command as well. You can for additional damage. But if you use rank 1 to save mana, you will not do that as the damage is pretty low. And if you using max rank you probably won't do it because its too expensive. So its only reseal after 30 seconds, as it is with Crusader.

 

[gotmilk0112]

Maybe it got fixed already (the status of the bug report would say so though)? I don't know. It's been a few days since I played on my paladin. I will quote Psojed on this (he wrote it in the bug report). You can repeat the steps and see whether it still is happening for you.

Basic damage: 112 - 146


W/ Might: 127 - 161


w/ Might + Crusader: 128 - 162 (I have 3/3 Imp Crusader)


After clicking off Crusader: 109 - 143


After clicking off Might: 112 - 146



So yeah, it looks to be still bugged. But really not reducing my damage by that much. 3 points off max and 4 points off min. So that's probably why I'm not noticing a difference in my damage.

You don't have to judge Command as well. You can for additional damage. But if you use rank 1 to save mana, you will not do that as the damage is pretty low. And if you using max rank you probably won't do it because its too expensive. So its only reseal after 30 seconds, as it is with Crusader.

I meant judge CRUSADER, not judge Command.

With Command, I'd do:

Crusader -> Judge -> Command -> Autoattack

Whereas with Crusader, it's just Crusader -> Autoattack, no having to judge anything, simpler rotation.

 

[frederik]

So yeah, it looks to be still bugged. But really not reducing my damage by that much. 3 points off max and 4 points off min. So that's probably why I'm not noticing a difference in my damage.

I guess the damage reduce is not flat so you might notice it more later.

Crusader -> Judge -> Command -> Autoattack

Oh, well you don't have to do that. You also can just as well do

Command -> Autoattack

Later on you would still make more damage with Command even if you did not use Judgement of the Crusader before (I don't use it if the mobs dies fast enough anyway). But you need to test when you reached that point. It is definitely the case for me now and I noticed it when I was 46 and got Stoneslayer which has speed 3.9.

 

[gotmilk0112]

Yeah, I think I'll just stick with Crusader for the moment, until I get a slower weapon. The RNG of Command procs frustrates me sometimes. :angry:

 

[frederik]

Yea, the randomness is really annoying. What helps is getting Precision for increased hit chance. It does not affect Seal of Command but at least you don't miss that often anymore.