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    TwinStar team

Mage PVE arcane spec?

Seems like they just felt that pushing a button every 5 seconds is more convenient then pushing another twice as often.
 
I think they used it cause the boss put debuff on you that regenerates mana, rage, energy etc, and missiles are mana heavy but probably higher dps than frost bolt, so on that fight they could spam missiles instead of frostbolts. Im not sure about this just a guess.
 
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pretty sure they have classic pve frost spec but for that boss they spam missiles instead of frostbolts
 
And the correct answer is:
Mages don't spec arcane missiles in vanilla. They use missiles at Vael, because of the fire debuff which causes pushbacks during casting. Arcane Missiles is a channeled cast, which only ends earlier due to pushbacks.
Basically they could shoot frostbolts, 1 in every 5-6 seconds, or spam missiles (since you have infinite mana, so mana costs don't matter) and do only the partial damage of the channeling, which still results in more overall dmg done, than spamming frostbolts. Yeah spell pushback effect is a bitch:p (also that's the reason why elemental shamans unfit for raiding, pushbacks reduce their dmg done by 60% at least, and there's no way to avoid that, talents only cover it pvpwise, and it was only implemented during the major revamp in late 2006.)
Not to mention the fact, that you can have 5 points Arcane Focus and have +10% hit for arcane spells. The Elemental Precision talent for 6% frost/fire hit only came in 1.11, so if the mana is of no concern, spam missles like there's no tomorrow, because of better overall damage:D (getting frost/fire hitcapped was impossible until ZG, and it wasn't easy even after that.)
 
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thatdcdewd said:
And the correct answer is:
Mages don't spec arcane missles in vanilla. They use missles at Vael, because of the fire debuff which causes pushbacks during casting. Arcane Missles is a channeled cast, which only ends earlier due to pushbacks.
Basically they could shoot frostbolts, 1 in every 5-6 seconds, or spam missles (since you have infinite mana, so mana costs don't matter) and do only the partial damage of the channeling, which still results in more overall dmg done, than spamming frostbolts. Yeah spell pushback effect is a bitch:p (also that's the reason why elemental shamans unfit for raiding, pushbacks reduce their dmg done by 60% at least, and there's no way to avoid that, talents only cover it pvpwise, and it was only implemented during the major revamp in late 2006.)
Not to mention the fact, that you can have 5 points Arcane Focus and have +10% hit for arcane spells. The Elemental Precision talent for 6% frost/fire hit only came in 1.11, so if the mana is of no concern, spam missles like there's no tomorrow, because of better overall damage:D (getting frost/fire hitcapped was impossible until ZG, and it wasn't easy even after that.)
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True !

But I disagree with your part about the case of no mana concern "AM has a better overall dmg"
when an AM does 1250 dmg in 5sec, a frostbolt does 900 dmg in 2.5sec, even if we include the better % of crit in AM (5 chances to proc), the dmg is still less than 2 frost.

However AM is usefull in only 3 specifics cases (pve) :
-pushbacks (like Vael)
-proc clearcasting (for a better mana regen during fight while continuing dps)
-arcane sensibility
 
Freezz said:
when an AM does 1250 dmg in 5sec, a frostbolt does 900 dmg in 2.5sec, even if we include the better % of crit in AM (5 chances to proc), the dmg is still less than 2 frost.
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Then we agree to disagree my friend:D I double-checked your math and it just doesn't add up.
Arcane Missiles (r8, trained at any trainer) has a basic damage of 230 each sec, that's 1150 damage over 5sec, or 230dps to make it easier. However Frostbolt (let's stick to r10, because no one will run AQ for a while:p) has a basic damage of 429-464 over (originally 3sec but let's calculate with) 2.5sec which even with the 6% bonus damage from Piercing Ice talent gives us less than 500 damage over 2.5 sec, <200 dps. No hit chance, crit chance whatsoever involved.

I don't mean to offend you but Frostbolt rank 10 never hits for 900, nor does rank 11:/ unless you have BWL-AQ level gear of course, but then Arcane Missiles hit harder too:p

(data source: vanilla twinhead because we're having our dispute on Kronos forum:D)
 
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you are talking about basic damages mate =)

I was talking about usual damages when you are 60 with arround 400-500 spellpower (werent we talking about bwl ? =)

figures i gave above were appropriate to this situation

the problem is the scaling of powerspell on arcane missiles which is a channeled spell

anyway, if you are naked, your figures are perfect !
 
AM, 5 sec cast 100% spelldmg
FB, 3sec (2.5) cast 81,43%

20% scaling / sec for AM and
32,57% scaling / sec for FB

Over 2.5secs thats 50% sp scaling for AM and 81.43% for FB. Every 2.5secs FB gains 31.43% more from sp then AM.

The higher your spelldamage the better FB gets compared to AM. If you have really bad gear (prio to 5man BiS or MC) AM is stronger then FB.
Since this guild progresses through BWL I doubt their gear is that bad.

Conclusion, these mages are retarded.
 
Lharts said:
Conclusion, these mages are retarded.
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Ah, somewhat perhaps, but not in relation to not using Frostbolt on Vael. The constant dmg that hits everyone, gives too much push-back for Frostbolt to be viable. Either you spam AM(especially if you have Imp AM - not that you ought to have that), or you spam AE.
 
Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

Edit: But to give other people an idea about how much push-back there was on the Vael fight in retail, I will reference to this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3XXD74fbbw

As can be seen there's roughly 1 push-back per Shadow Bolt.

With Fire Ward up you can ofc start with a Frostbolt. Likewise if you get Burning Adrenaline, you can spam Frostbolt.
 
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Like others have said, this is an old vid from way before Mage talent revision. This is what Mage talents looked like in 1.6: http://www.wowprovider.com/Old.aspx?talent=1604500_8

Pretty terrible. Also dungeon gear was not that great, so many mages were running around in Tier 1 (sucks) with low spell damage, hit and crit. Half the consumables we have in 1.11 didn't exist at this time.

Arcane missles was just a lot better to spam for this specific fight. 10% Hit, Pushback Immunity, and -40% Threat just from the first three talents in Arcane made it superior to Frostbolt for Vael.

Of course in 1.11 with better gear and talents, Frostbolt became a bit more viable for the fight, even with Pushback. But this is not 1.11.

I've seen vids of 1.6 where Mages spammed Arcane Explosion on Vael, which is a bit funny.
 
Im with Lharts on shis, they are stupid. If your arguement is to use AM cause no mana problems on Val, why would you then not just keep up both frost shield and mana shield at the same time and rotate 3 frost bolts to every one fire blast (i know resist lvls on fire blast, but the instant cast is still an increase to dps).
 
Cpstabber said:
Im with Lharts on shis, they are stupid. If your arguement is to use AM cause no mana problems on Val, why would you then not just keep up both frost shield and mana shield at the same time and rotate 3 frost bolts to every one fire blast (i know resist lvls on fire blast, but the instant cast is still an increase to dps).
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Are you serious? First of all, only one mage should have Ice Barrier(Frost shield as you call it). Mana shield should do nothing cuz you shouldn't be hit by the tail, and if you were hit it would knock you back and interrupt you anyway. Furthermore Fire Blast would do nothing cuz Vael is immune to fire.
But apart from all of this, the argument isn't(for most ppl anyway), and has never been, that you ought to use AM cuz of no mana problems. It's partly because of push-back and partly because you fought this fight before many of the talent revamps. Mana is only a minor point, that ensure you don't have to use mana pots, or mageblood or any other mana regaining abilities(Evocation, gems etc).

Edit: Actually no mages should have Ice Barrier back then cuz Winter's Chill was different and not even in the late tiers.
 
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Sources said the pushbacks came in every 5 seconds. If so, Frostbolt would be better.
The video shows that this is not the case and the pushbacks come way more often, this way, AM is more powerful.
If a priest is shielding you all the time when rdy and you drink fire absorb pots on CD Frostbolt would come out way ahead again.

First I thought this would be pretty clear, turns out its not. With pushback resist skilled AM is a viable option for Vael if not the best.
 
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