PvP Honor System Improvement.

[Khrey]

I sincerely doubt that ANYONE likes the current honor system, worst part about vanilla as you can't take breaks really without falling behind (decay) and having to no-life for longer.

Now listen, I'm not saying it should be easy or quick to get epics, or even blue gear (like when you could buy epics with honor just before TBC, that was silly), but can we please at least try to come up with some improvements so you don't have to play as much as you possible can to compete every week for months?

Like take a look at raiders, they have what, 1-2 raid nights (max a few hours) and they are done for the week, gets all the good stuff (with a bit of luck of course), like good luck even getting blue gear with that amount of playtime every week as a pvper.

And on top of that, the raiders gets gold, pvpers get a few silver every AV weekend (once a month) for turning in 3x marks (or 90 silver for greater honor, but that's only if you're saving marks from each BG).

Not the best deal folks, not the best deal.

Asked the staff @ https://www.twitch.tv/projectkronoswow if they would consider improving the honor system so its less no-life, I got the reply that "It's the vanilla way".
Like, alright, yet there is 5g respec cost (not that I'm complaining), but I guess you don't have to be that consistent in "the vanilla way".

I love pvping in vanilla, it's the only reason I still play this game after all these years, but the honor system is so unhealthy and bad.

#improvements, we can do better.

 

[edhris]

No we really don't need to make it easier to get gear, many people have nightmares of the 2.0 honor system. we simply need incentives for more people to play pvp. Gold for marks, taking measures against the premades dodging each other, additional honor for world pvp have already been suggested. At the moment you can casually pvp for a few weeks and get r10 gear which is perfectly fine in my opinion and would be easier if we had more people playing to increase the standing numbers.

I feel like everything remotely possible has been suggested and they haven't even tried to implement a single idea.

A wild idea I had was to add a secondary option to purchase the high rank gear, lifetime hks. Like say after 50k hks you could get r12 75k r13 etc. this would allow the people who can't grind for 8 hours a day to feel as f they're working towards a long term goal. If you get 75k hks in vanilla you certainly have as much experience if not more in pvp than someone who grinds a few weeks in premades then quits after hitting their rank. CRAZY IDEA I KNOW

 

[bawa]

Don't really know of much changes they can make with the way vanilla BGs work, other than put back the increased rep for all BGs. PvP is an optional gear grind, as is PvE. It's just unfortunate that the PvP gear grind relys on a flourishing population in order for it not to require 16+ hours a day to compete for the epic quality gear.

That's just the way it is, hardly any way to carve it into something different without destroying it completely.

 

[Khrey]

@edhris: I like that wild idea ^^ +1

I don't think it should be easier (as in quicker and requiring less effort) to get gear, I just think it should be less unhealthy, like the top rankers have to play all day as Bawa mentioned, sometimes barely getting sleep because of war for top standing (depends on the competition of course), I just think its silly :tongue:.

I wouldn't necessarily call grinding to rank 10 casual (that is what I went for), because if it was, I think we would see more people going for it.

 

[Sarei]

I don't think we should change ranking system, as hard and fucked up as it is, it really contributes to the "Vanilla feeling" in a great measure and it's one of it's fundamentals. However I'd like to see these changes in PvP department and they are all suggested here before, so I'm just backing them up:

1) Small amount of gold for battleground marks - This will 100% sure bring more people into battlegrounds. With let's say 3 gold per 1 mark the amount will be small enough not to be gamebreaking, but big enough to make people PvP for it. Seriously, 3 gold per mark is nothing, even if you won every game fast with instant queue it would still be 50g/hour, you're probably better off farming it in normal ways if it was only about the gold. Not to mention chances are you probably wont win every game that fast and have instant queue all the time on top of it.

2) Deserter on drop queue - Suggested billion times and it really fixes the dodging situation, would be more Premade v Preamde and more Pug v Pug games, there's literally no downside for this.

3) Use highest lifetime rank as a measure of how much honor some player is worth, not the current one and increase those values a bit - This is something that Feenix implemented and it was really good because it encouraged people to go for Wpvp between queues since it was actually worth it honor-wise. For example, if you killed solo someone who was R14 (but R3 now for example), he would always give 400 honor for a first kill. If his highest lifetime rank was 13 and you solo killed him, he'd give 380 honor for a first kill and so on.. On Feenix if people Wpvp'd whole day between queues they would have 15-20k honor more at the end of it which is a decent amount. I can see people Wpvping a lot more if it was worth honor-wise like that when it comes down to standing fight where every honor matters. On Feenix there was even a guy who got R12 just by Wpvping like a maniac day in - day out in IF/Menethil Harbor (Ziggster for those who played on Warsong server).

4) Make it possible to queue from anywhere in the world and return there upon leaving the battleground - This and the thing I wrote as a 3rd suggestion in combination should lead to people killing each other in BRM/Slithus while waiting in queue (or farm in the open world if not wpvp), join a game when it pops up, return right back to wpvp when the game ends. Much better then semi afk sitting in capitals until game pops ye?

5) As Dervin wrote in another topic, make system think there is always at least 1000-1500 players in standing pool - This way people would still have to play as much weekly, but it would actually be worth getting other top standings besides standing 1 and not make you stuck at R12 for 6 weeks just because there are those 2-3 guys who are going for R14 and have a little bit more rank progress then anyone else so they rightfully claim st1-3 every week until they are done and you can't really progress with other standings because there is 500 people in pool but you have to keep playing not to decay.. This severely burns out people and many of them never PvP again after the grind because they get sick of it just due to standing pool being too small for the given amount of rankers.


Just few ideas from top of my head, think all of them would help PvP activity a lot.

 

[Topmong]

1) Small amount of gold for battleground marks - This will 100% sure bring more people into battlegrounds. With let's say 3 gold per 1 mark the amount will be small enough not to be gamebreaking, but big enough to make people PvP for it. Seriously, 3 gold per mark is nothing, even if you won every game fast with instant queue it would still be 50g/hour, you're probably better off farming it in normal ways if it was only about the gold. Not to mention chances are you probably wont win every game that fast and have instant queue all the time on top of it.

While it would certainly benefit myself, I can't see it as a good idea in the economical sense. Sure, 3 gold per mark isn't a significant income for a single player, but you for some reason fail to look at the bigger picture. A single wsg win is not 9 gold, it's 120 gold to the server per a warsong gulch. Even if there was only one active wsg, it would be around 600g per hour added into the server. Now imagine that sum or more, added hourly into the Kronos economy. Over the span of months it will accumulate for a lot of inflation. Will you still consider it a good idea?

 

[Vanillacoke]

2) Deserter on drop queue - Suggested billion times and it really fixes the dodging situation, would be more Premade v Preamde and more Pug v Pug games, there's literally no downside for this.

I asked this on the Q&A earlier today and got the response that it was something that they had discussed and it seemed like they were positive to the idea. Just fyi.

3) Use highest lifetime rank as a measure of how much honor some player is worth, not the current one and increase those values a bit - This is something that Feenix implemented and it was really good because it encouraged people to go for Wpvp between queues since it was actually worth it honor-wise. For example, if you killed solo someone who was R14 (but R3 now for example), he would always give 400 honor for a first kill. If his highest lifetime rank was 13 and you solo killed him, he'd give 380 honor for a first kill and so on.. On Feenix if people Wpvp'd whole day between queues they would have 15-20k honor more at the end of it which is a decent amount. I can see people Wpvping a lot more if it was worth honor-wise like that when it comes down to standing fight where every honor matters. On Feenix there was even a guy who got R12 just by Wpvping like a maniac day in - day out in IF/Menethil Harbor (Ziggster for those who played on Warsong server).

Not a bad idea. People on feenix would usually have Kargath HS and go there after every game, certainly making the world feel more alive.

 

[Sarei]

@Topmong

If it would bring more people who would grind the gold by killing mobs anyway into battlegrounds then yes. If it wouldn't increase the number of people quing then no. That would exactly be the purpose of this, to animate more people to queue for battlegrounds, not the gold itself, I personally don't care about gold since I'll keep qing anyway and don't need much gold. I would rather play battlegrounds for any amount, no matter how low or high it was, then farm DM north for 90g per hour. I suggested this by assumption that there is more people like that, who would settle for a lower amount of gold but PvP while doing so instead of mindlessly killing mobs.


Basically, if 20 people joined a WSG the end result is 120g after let's say 20-25 minute game (average duration). Now if 7 out of those 20 q'd just because of gold, they would go farm it by killing mobs anyway if they were not be able to do it in WSG and 7 of them would probably farm the same amount of gold in the same period of time by usual methods. So if you look at it that way, there wouldn't be much more gold made, it would just be spread out more evenly (20 ppl share 120g instead of 7 ppl sharing some similar amount).


If even then 3g is too much, they could make it 2g or something, 80g as an end result instead of 120 is a big difference in a long run.


Ofc this is all assuming that battleground population would noticeably increase (like at least 30% boost, hence 7 out of 20) by people switching from mobs farming to BGs.. If mob farmers just kept on farming mobs and there wouldn't be any change in battleground population or if the boost would be way too small, implementing this would be a bad idea.

 

[Smoker]

1.
Introduce these items to the loot-table of slain players in battlegrounds when looting their insignia:

1-3 Dreamfoil 5%
1-3 Plaguebloom 5%
1-3 Gromsblood 5%
1-3 Icecap 5%
1-3 Heavy Runecloth Bandage 5%
1x Swiftness Potion 5%
1x Free Action Potion 5%
1x Superior Healing Potion 5%
1x Black Lotus 1%


2.
Let the Concerted Efforts and For Great Honor quests give more reputation and some gold:

Currently they give
100 with WSG and AB
150 with AV

Let them give
500 with WSG and AB
750 with AV
5 gold

This way a variety in battlegrounds is the fastest way to gain reputation with any of them and also provides an incentive to those who may already be exalted.

 

[bl4ckc0d3r]

1 black lotus for every 100 people you loot...? Objective of the game wouldn't be winning anymore. People would compete in looting corpses.

 

[Smoker]

Alternatively could also make a new quest that you turn your BG marks in for. If you don't care about honor or reputation then you can get a goodiebag that contains a chance at the items.

 

[bawa]

1.
Introduce these items to the loot-table of slain players in battlegrounds when looting their insignia:

1-3 Dreamfoil 5%
1-3 Plaguebloom 5%
1-3 Gromsblood 5%
1-3 Icecap 5%
1-3 Heavy Runecloth Bandage 5%
1x Swiftness Potion 5%
1x Free Action Potion 5%
1x Superior Healing Potion 5%
1x Black Lotus 1%

no,

 

[NotSachi]

A wild idea I had was to add a secondary option to purchase the high rank gear, lifetime hks. Like say after 50k hks you could get r12 75k r13 etc. this would allow the people who can't grind for 8 hours a day to feel as f they're working towards a long term goal. If you get 75k hks in vanilla you certainly have as much experience if not more in pvp than someone who grinds a few weeks in premades then quits after hitting their rank. CRAZY IDEA I KNOW

I'm not a big fan of handing out gear for lifetime HK's. It might end up being more efficient again to farm turtle AV for 3 weeks than to rank.
However, the idea of giving some reward for PVPing a lot is not bad. It could definitely create incentive.
For example let's say... permanent access to rank 6 pots when you reach 100k HK's

Spoiler

*coughs*

 

[Chainsaw]

Reward no more honor from bgs after playing 4hrs in bgs. Will improve world pvp. No honor from world pvp any longer after getting 100 hks per day from wpvp. I know this sounds harsh, but actually it will give everybody chances to gain same amount of honor without 18hr days.

 

[Labathor]

Rather than having BG weekends it should be double honor for said bg rotating every 3rd day.

wsg>ab>av

Only thing that happens off weekends in regards to bg pvp is WSG, and now this weekend is having huge issues just getting a single AV to pop on K1.

 

[Lopherus]

I"m categorically opposed to any further changes that make Kronos even more deviate from retail vanilla. All I am aware of were for the worse, and typically introduced with an agenda benefiting a small, but vocal minority. The point is an experience as pristine as possible. If you think vanilla is too much about harsh grind, then, well, maybe, you are playing the wrong game. It's all about it.

Just going over all these inane suggestions in the thread alone, every person smarter than Blizzard was, makes me sick. There's a reason Blizzard's original wow, until some later expansion, was a smash hit. Let's please stop listening to millennials having to have it their way as they are too smart for their own good, all the while pushing their amazing (totally annoying) change into everyone's throat only bc they cry so loud.