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    TwinStar team

Warrior Tank Points - by Undertanker

IMO:

Orcs make a better OT, as they will have the +skill of axes to get a bit more rage, and can use their racial as well for more rage / threat generation on fights where you need to swap tanks, or have 2 tanks and the boss isn't tauntable. Time your racial to right after the boss is off you, so you aren't MTing while increased damage buff is up.


Troll you can do this as well, however timing a 30% fury while off tanking may be a bit more difficult if there isn't a lot of splash damage.



Tauren would be the best pure MT while world buffed. They lose their appeal a bit if you are running non buffed, or happen to die.


That being said, regardless of race/faction, best should still be while actually tanking is Blessed Qiraji Warhammer
 
Cpstabber said:
IMO:

Orcs make a better OT, as they will have the +skill of axes to get a bit more rage, and can use their racial as well for more rage / threat generation on fights where you need to swap tanks, or have 2 tanks and the boss isn't tauntable. Time your racial to right after the boss is off you, so you aren't MTing while increased damage buff is up.


Troll you can do this as well, however timing a 30% fury while off tanking may be a bit more difficult if there isn't a lot of splash damage.



Tauren would be the best pure MT while world buffed. They lose their appeal a bit if you are running non buffed, or happen to die.


That being said, regardless of race/faction, best should still be while actually tanking is Blessed Qiraji Warhammer
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Do you realize that Blood Fury, the Orc racial, puts a debuff on you for about half a minute that reduces healing received by 50%?
 
Thought it was 20 seconds, which is why I stated this:

Time your racial to right after the boss is off you, so you aren't MTing while increased damage buff is up


My point is still valid, just be mindful when to use it. The second tank on Val would use the racial right at pull and would have generated more threat due to increased damage and the debuff would be off before he needs to tank.
 
Orc MTs have %0.2 more crit and hit, less chance to be parried and dodged when they equip an Axe in MH. We have just recently got into AQ so now we have a good tanking axe until you get your hands on Nef axe.

Overall its %0.6 hit(%0.4 of it dont count towards the hitcap so if you have hitcap already its still a bonus) and 0.2 crit, obviously much better for a MT. Same goes for huumyns(although they look like shit)

HP-Whoring Tauren MTs are for TBC imo, where you can get expertise from tanking items.
 
Cpstabber said:
Thought it was 20 seconds, which is why I stated this:

Time your racial to right after the boss is off you, so you aren't MTing while increased damage buff is up


My point is still valid, just be mindful when to use it. The second tank on Val would use the racial right at pull and would have generated more threat due to increased damage and the debuff would be off before he needs to tank.
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Why would a horde guild need a 2nd tank on vael when melee are doing over 2k dps and the fight is over in 30 seconds.
 
Not every guild DPS is that high.

It's fucking annoying when people find one specific situation and focus on that like it like a center-fold.

Won't contribute anything positive to any post. Only looking for somewhere to take their next shit post. Look at the all the helpful information and discussions on Nost class forums, compared to the limited threads on here for information. It's because the majority of this forum community is cancer.



Please make a thread with your own ideas, some of which I've seen in this thread. Such as the:

"tanks don't need def/stam" thread.
"all fights are under 30 seconds" thread.
"how to argue about needing hit on a guide that still promotes 10 hit%" thread.
"how 0.2% crit is > 5% HP" thread.
"how to not take OT gearing on not kill prio targets into consideration" thread.
"what is the definition of overall" thread.
"why Crul axe > war hammer".


TL'DR:

Don't bother trying to share information and ideas. The 1 in a 100 exception to the rule is > than helping others understand things as a whole.
 
It's interesting to look at the arguments being made here, and then doing a real world comparisons to other similar guilds. ThunderCats, Unite and Vanquish, and Control, all share similar levels of progression, and they also have similar iLvls when comparing gear across the raids.

I grabbed some stats from a few raid fights for each guild, which you can see below. The MC bosses are tank and spank. BWL has tank and spank and a threat drop fight


ThunderCats:
Baron Geddon - 84 seconds - iLvl 65 - https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?boss-kill=416071
#1 DPS : 394
#1 Tank Dmg taken : 17,999
#1 Tank Dmg taken/second: 214

Golemagg - 113 seconds - iLvl 65 - https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?boss-kill=416084
#1 DPS : 540
#1 Tank Dmg taken : 41,626
#1 Tank Dmg taken/second: 368

Ebonroc - 96 seconds - iLvl 65 - https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?boss-kill=419211
#1 DPS : 560
#1 Tank Dmg taken : 33,412
#1 Tank Dmg taken/second: 348

Broodlord - 139 seconds - iLvl 65 - https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?boss-kill=419190
#1 DPS : 435
#1 Tank Dmg taken : 41,259
#1 Tank Dmg taken/second: 296

===========================

Unite and Vanquish:
Baron Geddon - 73 seconds - iLvl 65 - https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?boss-kill=417202
#1 DPS : 481
#1 Tank Dmg taken : 18,134
#1 Tank Dmg taken/second: 248

Golemagg - 98 seconds - iLvl 65 - https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?boss-kill=417213
#1 DPS : 542
#1 Tank Dmg taken : 52,520
#1 Tank Dmg taken/second: 535

Ebonroc - 88 seconds - iLvl 67 - https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?boss-kill=404046
#1 DPS : 821
#1 Tank Dmg taken : 34,942
#1 Tank Dmg taken/second: 397

Broodlord - 96 seconds - iLvl 66 - https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?boss-kill=403996
#1 DPS : 614
#1 Tank Dmg taken : 28,424
#1 Tank Dmg taken/second: 296

===========================

Control:
Baron Geddon - 45 seconds - iLvl 65 - https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?boss-kill=419069
#1 DPS : 940
#1 Tank Dmg taken : 19,646
#1 Tank Dmg taken/second: 436

Golemagg - 72 seconds - iLvl 65 - https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?boss-kill=419084
#1 DPS : 665
#1 Tank Dmg taken : 27,419
#1 Tank Dmg taken/second: 380

Ebonroc - 119 seconds - iLvl 66 - https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?boss-kill=419216
#1 DPS : 510
#1 Tank Dmg taken : 39,368
#1 Tank Dmg taken/second: 330

Broodlord - 165 seconds - iLvl 66 - https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?boss-kill=419194
#1 DPS : 443
#1 Tank Dmg taken : 42,660
#1 Tank Dmg taken/second: 258


===========================

When you compare the 4 bosses, here's what you see.

Baron Geddon: ThunderCats had the slowest fight, lowest DPS, lowest tank damage taken/second

Golemagg: ThunderCats had the slowest fight, lowest DPS, lowest tank damage taken/second. UAV had extremely similar #1 DPS, but fight was 15 seconds shorter and average raid DPS was 10% higher. This is because they allowed their tank to take more damage.

Ebonroc: Control had the slowest fight, lowest DPS, lowest tank damage taken/second.

Broodlord: Control had the slowest fight. TC had the lowest #1 and average DPS. Control had the lowest tank damage taken/second.


Everyone knows by looking at stats from raid fights, the shorter the fight, the higher the DPS. But what maybe isn't quite as obvious, is that the tank needs to take higher damage per second, in order to allow the raid to do more damage per second. This is evidenced in these examples here. You can see this in higher end guilds as well. Just look at 2 bosses for Synced.

Broodlord - 60 seconds - https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?boss-kill=415290#bosskills_players:0+5+4+1
#1 DPS : 1,101
#1 Tank Dmg taken : 24,965
#1 Taken Dmg taken/second : 416

Golemagg - 53 seconds - https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?boss-kill=415583
#1 DPS : 1,083
#1 Tank Dmg taken : 27,074
#1 Taken Dmg taken/second : 510



The trend in every fight you look at is the raid DPS is higher when the tank (presumably) prioritizes threat over mitigation/avoidance.




Thank you for making this post to raise a discussion around itemization preferences in the tanking community.
 
We havn't been world buffing our MC runs due to lack of heads, and don't expect DM Buff/Songflower on something that trivial, not to mention we have had some CRAZY bad luck on weapon drops.

Also #MIAOnxyiaHead for our last BWL. We only did ZG buffs and went.


I'd say having to take more damage to do more threat, isn't as effective here as you may think compared to Nost or Pheenix. It helps a bit, but with the way incoming damage increases rage (not by much) it is more of using 8-9 hit, they so happen to take more damage due to this selection.


On Barron I used 225 unbuffed FR 6 hit for that fight, and I wasn't threat capping the raid, though I still think on that fight 225 is way too much FR as there can be 10 second windows where HoTs keep me up. Ebonroc seriously does like 30K total damage to tanks, and broodlorde, depending on knock backs resisting or not, can greatly affect how often a single tank is targeted.


There are a lot of variables to each fight, and if my raid isn't pushing 1k DPS due to not having world buffs, lack of BiS and what not, no reason to gimp my tankability for more TPS that I am not really competing for.
 
The point of my post wasn't to call out thundercats for having low raid DPS. It was to help you understand that your DPS are having to hold back because you're not generating enough threat. Either you're not properly managing rage, or you're prioritizing avoidance/mitigation over damage/threat. Based on this thread, I'm assuming it's the later.

I agree, there are a lot of variables between fights and that's why I tried to pick some tank-and-spank fights, and I did 4 samples for each guild. I also pick some MC fights that priotize caster damage, whereas the BWL fights priotize melee DPS. In all the examples, the less damage the tank took the longer the fight lasted. I would be very surprised if your top DPS players weren't being forced to hold back for the first 5-8 seconds of a fight because you were generating threat too slow.

And if you guys are taking 2 an a half hours to clear BWL but DM/Songflower buffs aren't a priority for you, that's kind of weird.
 
"why 0.2 crit(and %0.2 hit that count towards cap, %0.4 that doesnt count towards cap and still works at cap) > %5 health"

"why a free weapon that has decent speed and amazing dps over something that requires elementium and will decrease your rage gain even further" (well hammer>axe for humans probably)

FTFY



%5 health? well go take DM-N buff, songflower, or pop some extra health consumable that will get you that much such as Dirge's. I'd like to point out back in retail people who progressed and successfully cleared naxx had tanks with 9k buffed HP. We have people that get to 11k+ with threat gear.

Well its the same reason you would want a human tank instead of a night elf.

Most tanks in server get %hit so they no longer miss or at least reduce their chance to miss during a fight where threat is an issue. while you may think crit is worthless.... well just keep thinking that way ^^
And if you cant urge your dps players to tryhard and get those special cooldown items such as Earthstrike, Diamond Flask etc, ofc fights will be longer, healer mana will be strained and since heals will start slowing down you will need that extra health. Basically you are choosing between

A) Go ham dps, have your tank wear dps/hit/crit gear and since fight will be shorter ask your healers to drop mp5 for +heal to keep people alive.

B) Go slow, take it slowly like it was 12 years ago, fight a T1 content boss with T2.5 content gear and equip full tank set, threat limit is lower so even the better dps have to chill down a bit so healers will need mp5 instead of +heal.

You have your opinion, I have mine. This isnt penix or rebirth(i tanked on both)



I was part of a casual~ guild with a few good dps players before BWL launch in k1. we were killing Geddon before the first Inferno and at least 4 people were doing 700+ dps(no songflower, no zg buff, only DM/Ony). With BWL/ZG/AQ gear out there, there are no excuses.
 
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Don't bother trying to share information and ideas
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Mmmmmm. What's up Stalin?

Fei might be semi-tactless in his comments, he's totally right.

I've posted this here before, but the best rule of thumb for tanks to go after is to try to get as close to 8% hit while staying all-plate and keeping your HP as high as possible. The way itemization works this rule will get your best set in 98% of the cases. The only other relevant thing to look out for is 5/8 T2 and stacking any form of agility afterwards, assuming you've gone the Impale route.

Pure avoidance or tankpoints are completely irrelevant in almost all the fights, the only fights you want to tune it down a little are Twin Emps and maybe if you're not dodging breaths on Chrom and are new there, Chrommagus.

Also you can't start a thread like this with very arbitral values in terms of rating tank gear, and not expect people to disagree with you or "share their information and ideas". You are not the emperor of tanking, and judging from your responses here - rightfully so.
 
Well, let's compare the referenced TCats Geddon kill to a one where our main tank took similiar damage: https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?boss-kill=276392#bosskills_players:0+5+1. As you can see the ilvl's are pretty close and the damage to the main tank are similar. Keep in mind this kill was November 2nd 2015 (10 months ago) and no one in the guild had access to ZG gear or ZG enchants. The difference is 27 seconds versus 84 seconds. The important thing to notice is how the rest of the raid takes no damage and when comparing healing done columns, they are night and day. The point is, the longer you make the fight the more stress you put on healers and the greater the chance of failure. This is true, imo, for every single fight in the game.

Also note the main tank's DPS and how much they contrast. Our tank, even early in the server, knew to priority damage gear.
 
I am loving how I am to blame for DPS being low.

On Nost my raids were much faster, and it was due to 40 people being ready every second to push tempo.

Thinks are a too bit casual at times for my liking.

Even with using NR gear/def +3hit on Huhuran it isn't hard to hold 700+ DPS. It is a lack of the amount of people who can do that much damage is what extends the fight.

If people were capped, I would run 5 hit the next week on the same fight and so on.

Incorrect rotations? Shield Slam / Revenge / Shield Block if over 25 rage and more than 3 sec to go on shield slam > sunder if more than 2-sec to go on shield slam or revenge > heroic strike if over 45 rage.
 
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If you ever ask your DPS to "wait" after you pull, then yes, you're to blame. Do more damage and you'll hold threat better.
 
On ally side the only classes that tanks have trouble keeping threat over in my experience is world buffed full consumes ironfoe warriors, multi rank imp shadowbolt warlocks, and fire mages with ignite rolling. It's entirely possible thundercat have none of these which is why threat isn't an issue for them. It's really hard to compare with hordes experience since on horde threat is so much more important due to lack of salv. (Source I was threat capped all the time on nost hordeside)
 
We have started going harder on threat on tanks in MC/BWL now due to facing pretty big threat issues from warlocks and our more geared warriors. We have started using recklessness on vael so warriors can go hard from the beginning, and so the first BA caster can go all out. It's also very fun to do 1k dps when you are tanking.
 
Havn't popped Reck on Val, though Onxyia it is the Standard at start of Phase 3, once I am within more than 1 healer's range.


Not a bad idea.


We encourage the fury warriors to use cleave over HS for the first few moments. Though this is one of the very few instances an alcorz/finkles/zg dagger/Esk MH are show their worth and the HS spamming of 1.3 or faster with Esk helps with the threat a lot as well.

Gotta love those 1 trick pony weapons that eat a bag place.
 
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Ideally as horde (without Fear ward, aka you have to do something yourself) you berserker rage > recklessness > berserker rage on Ony to eat all the fears. Alternatively if your dps is somewhat lower you can eat the first fear and start the rotation 1 step later so you got like 10 seconds more to kill him.

Tanks on Vael are easily able to push over 1300-1350 DPS, assuming you don't go in there without any world buffs. But even without Songflower/DMF those numbers are not that hard to reach.

Also like Fei has tried to desperately mention a couple times, doing this much DPS and TPS as a tank will drastically reduce the overall bossfight duration, making the (in absolute values) total damage taken (and thus healing required) considerably lower. Also it's much easier for healers to spam a tank who is taken 10-20-30% more damage, than it is to deal with 5-10 more stacking flame buffets (raid or melee wide).

Lastly, just because your DPS aren't pulling aggro or within a couple % of you on KTM does not necessarily mean they aren't threatcapped or holding themselves back. If you start a bossfight with "wait with DPS until 2 sunders" you are gimping everyone around you.
 
Cpstabber said:
We havn't been world buffing our MC runs due to lack of heads, and don't expect DM Buff/Songflower on something that trivial, not to mention we have had some CRAZY bad luck on weapon drops.

Also #MIAOnxyiaHead for our last BWL. We only did ZG buffs and went.


I'd say having to take more damage to do more threat, isn't as effective here as you may think compared to Nost or Pheenix. It helps a bit, but with the way incoming damage increases rage (not by much) it is more of using 8-9 hit, they so happen to take more damage due to this selection.


On Barron I used 225 unbuffed FR 6 hit for that fight, and I wasn't threat capping the raid, though I still think on that fight 225 is way too much FR as there can be 10 second windows where HoTs keep me up. Ebonroc seriously does like 30K total damage to tanks, and broodlorde, depending on knock backs resisting or not, can greatly affect how often a single tank is targeted.


There are a lot of variables to each fight, and if my raid isn't pushing 1k DPS due to not having world buffs, lack of BiS and what not, no reason to gimp my tankability for more TPS that I am not really competing for.
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I find it humorous if not ironic that you or your guild doesn't bother with dire maul or world buffs for molten core because it is so 'trivial' yet you spent hours theory crafting every possible tanking item/scenario.

Also you wear fire resist for baron gheddon? What is this, 2006?
 
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