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    TwinStar team

Always 10% DMF

This simply just shows what type of player you are.

You can actually afford raid consumables with the gold you get from boss drops, unless you die/wipe alot. And even that, you dont have to farm more than 1-2 hours per week. Is that really that much to ask?

stack that 1-2 hours a week with clearing dm(if your part of clearing it) staying logged on in as a Mage to port people out, warlocks to summon the guild/friends to DMF/zg island.... over time, if you'll admit it or not, these task take more time than the raid itself. As I said, everyone should be playing for enjoyment. Vanilla is easy, the fact that so many deem it manitory to have all raiders to have all world buffs is foolish unless your competing for record speeds and attempting those records with out 10% DMF is foolish.
 
Also, stop speaking for communities you don't represent. You represent yourself, no one else. You do not represent the hardcore community. You are lazy. You want to impose things that would make your life easier and would have no impact on the server and it would not make raid-loggers NOT raid-log. This change will have 0 positive impact for the server and it would make the whole point of DMF negligible. If everyone gets 10% from DMF week, they might as well cancel it entirely since it ruins the competitive element of it.
 
Also, stop speaking for communities you don't represent. You represent yourself, no one else. You do not represent the hardcore community. You are lazy. You want to impose things that would make your life easier and would have no impact on the server and it would not make raid-loggers NOT raid-log. This change will have 0 positive impact for the server and it would make the whole point of DMF negligible. If everyone gets 10% from DMF week, they might as well cancel it entirely since it ruins the competitive element of it.

Please stop speaking for those you do not represent.

If everyone gets 10% from DMF week, they might as well cancel it entirely since it ruins the competitive element of it.

It's once per month. A refreshing change where guilds shape up and try to break some records. You are just plain wrong.
 
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Yet the people/guilds that put in the effort actually have high rankings to show for it. It is entirely possible to place in top 1-10 rankings on every single boss in the course of one DMF raid.

PS: not talking about communist mage rankings
PPS: i know that warlock rankings are bamboozled by kronis bugs
 
Not sure how rng is competitive but ok if you say so.

It is not RNG. If you are commited to get 10% DMF for your raids you can. That is what the previous poster is refering to. To you and similar minded players who get it once before raid, sure it's RNG. However, others make sure to get as many chances as possible (some even setting alarms to wake up every 4th hour) to make sure to get 10% hence DMF is not RNG and could be seen as to have a competitive element to it.
 
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Please stop speaking for those you do not represent.
Who did I speak for? I spoke only for myself. The OP and the guy replying to me keeps speaking for a magical group of players that don't exist. The majority of people that DMF applies to are hardcore raiders.
Beside that, make a coherent argument. You slave over forums day in and day out, you have replies on almost every possible thread here, but you never provide any useful information or make even a slightly valid point. If you disagree with me, state why. Don't just say stuff like "YOU'RE WRONG LUL" cause your bloated ego agrees with you. You think having guaranteed 10% will make raid-loggers not raid-log? You think guaranteed 10% will make the dps rankings more competitive? You think guaranteed 10% will have a positive effect on the already faceroll content? I can answer all 3 of those for you.
The only reason you want 10% is most likely cause you're lazy of having to log in every 4 hours to fish for it or you want to be guaranteed to be competitive on the meters or you want to set more clear records, none of which is sufficient motivation for such a change.


It's once per month. A refreshing change where guilds shape up and try to break some records. You are just plain wrong.
No. You are wrong. "It is not RNG. If you are commited to get 10% DMF for your raids you can. That is what the previous poster is refering to. To you and similar minded players who get it once before raid, sure it's RNG. However, others make sure to get as many chances as possible (some even setting alarms to wake up every 4th hour) to make sure to get 10% hence DMF is not RNG and could be seen as to have a competitive element to it." - so making everyone get 10% removes the competitive element from it. Part of the competition is putting in the effort to get 8-10% or whatever. If everyone you are competing with on the rankings also have 10%, it would be pointless wouldn't it? You might as well not have it at all. The fact that you can't conceive the fact that giving everyone the same thing removes the point of it entirely, is beyond me frankly.

The fact that you said "Bump for the sake of raid-logging" shows how little thought you have put into this. You don't find it strange that raid-loggers are logged out 3 days ahead of raiding when DMF isn't even up? Atleast DMF fishing makes them log in every 4 hours.
 
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You think having guaranteed 10% will make raid-loggers not raid-log?
I think having guaranteed 10% will make those who do not raid log avoid being "forced to" raid log for two weeks every month.

You think guaranteed 10% will make the dps rankings more competitive?
It will make them more fair and balanced, if anything. Example of it is 1) being logged out for 4 days straight getting 1-4% and stopping because you finally reached 8%, versus 2) getting 10% in 1-2 tries.

Because RNG. But wait, you guys already said it's not RNG. So I guess it's not RNG.

The only reason you want 10% is most likely cause you're lazy of having to log in every 4 hours to fish for it or you want to be guaranteed to be competitive on the meters or you want to set more clear records, none of which is sufficient motivation for such a change.
You can call me many things, but definitely not lazy or not committed to nerding things out to the max. I don't know how long you play on Kronos, but feel free to ask older players around you about me.

The whole point that Relada was trying to make with this whole thread, and that I am trying to make by supporting him here is:
"I think having guaranteed 10% will make those who do not raid log avoid being "forced to" raid log for two weeks every month."

Incoming "No one forces you to do anything!!! It's about fun!!11!11111oneeleven11!"


No. You are wrong. "It is not RNG. If you are commited to get 10% DMF for your raids you can.
You have a non-zero probability of.

making everyone get 10% removes the competitive element from it. Part of the competition is putting in the effort to get 8-10% or whatever. If everyone you are competing with on the rankings also have 10%, it would be pointless wouldn't it? You might as well not have it at all. The fact that you can't conceive the fact that giving everyone the same thing removes the point of it entirely, is beyond me frankly.
Let's analyse what you just said.
(1) Giving everyone 10% removes the competitive element.
(2) If everyone you are competing with on the rankings also have 10%, it would be pointless wouldn't it?
(3) The fact that you can't conceive the fact that giving everyone the same thing removes the point of it...

(1) and (3) are basically the same thing. (2) I will keep separate because I am about to directly counter it.

You and a few others spent a whole page of this thread convincing the rest of us that whoever is committed enough will get 10% (or at least 8+). Let's call that (4). Do we all agree that all the top-ranked players on bosses and average DPS definitely do spend tons of time getting high percentage of DMF damage buff? We do? Good. Let's call that (5).

(2) and (5) are in contradiction. Your reasoning is wrong Tarylia, and I provided you with a proof of it.

So to recap, if a) people who are high in rankings get 10%, or super close to 10%, anyway, and b) some of them who don't typically raid log are then forced to raid log for nearly two weeks every time DMF is around to remain competitive on average DPS and lifetime records, and c) some others will raid log no matter what since only reason they play the game for is the 2 hours of raiding night; then why not remove b) and have a certain fraction of people be able to play until 1 hour before the raid, instead of 4 days before the raid?
 
Time to remove ZG and Head buff since everyone gets those buffs it's not competitive imo
 
I think having guaranteed 10% will make those who do not raid log avoid being "forced to" raid log for two weeks every month.

How many of these non-raid logging players would you say your guild has that are affected in this way by DMF? Of that number, how many have no other level 60 characters? :thinking:
 
How many of these non-raid logging players would you say your guild has that are affected in this way by DMF? Of that number, how many have no other level 60 characters? :thinking:

We've touched upon the topic of alts versus mains earlier in this thread (in short, alts suck). I can't give you exact number really, but let's say about 10?
 
You didn't answer the question fully. Please do so, even though I know it's very inconvenient for your raid logging argument.
 
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To avoid any further discussion on bug fixes just NO more custom changes (revert the custom changes done), make everything as blizzlike as your sources allow it. If people go sandmarshall again and invis pot black lotus, summon each other to every spot in the world, so be it. The only thing that could be inproved would be something like maximum 2 connected clients per IP where at least one of the both clients has to be either in a capital city or in a raid dungeon to not get disconnected. The idea might have some flaws, it just came to my mind and I could not think too much about cons yet.
 
We've touched upon the topic of alts versus mains earlier in this thread

I'm sorry, it wasn't this thread, it was the songflower thread.

Alts are not mains... Most people have alts that are not so well geared, used only for farming with bad UIs/keybinds, and not a class they really like playing - made only for the purpose of convenience with respect to gathering materials and farming gold.

If not even this answers your question, then please restate your question in a more precise manner so that I cannot possibly misunderstand it.
 
Alts are not mains... Most people have alts that are not so well geared, used only for farming with bad UIs/keybinds, and not a class they really like playing - made only for the purpose of convenience with respect to gathering materials and farming gold.

Quite untrue and amazingly convenient for the arguments you put forward.
 
Do you want me to make something up that would be against the point I am arguing for? I mean... Wat.
 
You're legitimately trying to claim that alts are not a counter to mains being offline with DMF? You're telling me that players in the hardcore guilds don't have alts that are BWL/AQ40 geared? They're raiding in your guild with shit UIs & without keybinds? If they're ungeared, they can't join pug 5mans or raids to get gear and thus not be raid logging? Not one enjoys any other class or has access to even the same class? They're all just ungeared mages and hunters reluctantly made to farm Dire Maul, I suppose.
 
I'll try to explain to you from my point of view why playing on alts is less fun, than a main. I currently play a mage as a main, while i have 3 other lvl 60s, 2 warriors and a shaman. Every week i pvp on my main and try to get around 40-50K honor in terms of keeping r6 for combat potions, and I do also find pvp enjoyable on my mage but only my mage really.

My other alts are fully geared to the max, with gear they can achieve from 5mans, and 20 mans, therefore I have no real incentive to play on those, with the small exception of herbin, which lets be fair, you can only do for so many hours before your brain starts to shrink.

My alts, UI and gear is more than fine, but yet i still prefere to play my main, which I am sure even you would understand. So every DMF week (once a month) I log on my main to get a good % DMF, if i get a good % i log it off and dont play untill raids (and yes, sometimes i set my alarm in the middle of the night to get one more attempt at DMF), and after raids i do the same to get a good % for the next raid. This week I play my main character outside raids for maybe 1-2hours, due to saving/getting high % DMF. I do not play more alts more this week, cause i still don't enjoy playing those nearly as much as my main, and I do not participate in PVP at all during DMF week and usually de-rank every DMF week.

If we were to have permanent 10% DMF, i would only need to take the DMF buff just before every raid, leaving me able to help out the guild I am in, on the character I prefere and enjoy to play. I would also be able to PVP that week, in order to get my target honor of about 50K, which usually is 15-20 games, depending on what BG, and how many wins, thereby adding to the "active PVP playerbase".
 
I think having guaranteed 10% will make those who do not raid log avoid being "forced to" raid log for two weeks every month.
Someone is forcing you to raidlog? Omg, you should probably call the police to get that gun away from your temple.


It will make them more fair and balanced, if anything. Example of it is 1) being logged out for 4 days straight getting 1-4% and stopping because you finally reached 8%, versus 2) getting 10% in 1-2 tries.
Apparently they didn't teach probability in school where you're from, I'll call up the minister of education asap. Part of the effort is getting the high percentage. Your argument is literally one of "Let's give everyone DFTs and Femurs since it will be fair and then we can compete on equal footing, screw the RNG of droprates omg!" - Why stop there? Let's just put a vendor with T3 in it right since EVENTUALLY everyone is going to have it and it will be unfair for some good players who didn't get the RNG of their items dropping and they can't compete on meters then.

You can call me many things, but definitely not lazy or not committed to nerding things out to the max. I don't know how long you play on Kronos, but feel free to ask older players around you about me.
I know precisely who you are. Your argument is that of someone that is lazy though, that's why a hunter using agi pots agrees with you.

(2) and (5) are in contradiction. Your reasoning is wrong Tarylia, and I provided you with a proof of it.
They are not in contradiction as they have a requirement of actually getting the 10%. (2) has no competitive input of getting the buff and (5) does. It's fair for the rankings of those that put in the effort of getting the 10% to be placed on equal footing. If you remove the process of getting the 10% (which is the competitive element) then it's gone, but the people that get 10% are on equal footing. If you give EVERYONE, even the guys that pop it right before a raid you entirely remove the purpose of logging every 4 hours to ensure your good buff. Ie. you place slackers and tryhards on equal footing which is substantially more unfair. And giving something to EVERYONE (not the people that tryhard) then you render it negligible. Simple example is, farming has a result of rewarding gold. Ie. time=gold. If a GM gives everyone on the server 5k gold, how much you think would 5k gold be worth? Nothing. Prices would just increase proportionately. Same with dps, give everyone 10% and they're just all going to do X amount of more dps, which they could have compared with or without the buff.

So to recap, if a) people who are high in rankings get 10%, or super close to 10%, anyway, and b) some of them who don't typically raid log are then forced to raid log for nearly two weeks every time DMF is around to remain competitive on average DPS and lifetime records, and c) some others will raid log no matter what since only reason they play the game for is the 2 hours of raiding night; then why not remove b) and have a certain fraction of people be able to play until 1 hour before the raid, instead of 4 days before the raid?
So let me get this straight, you have argued against GMs for implementing changes proposed by a vocal minority and now you're advocating changes to the server made by a minority? You guys have been complaining about the lack of blizzlike elements on this server basically permanently and then you make threads like this. None of your argument holds any ground. You are not forced to raidlog, you can gear alts, you can farm etc. You can literally make a char that is identical to your main on this server. No-one even needs hardly any gear anymore.

Time to remove ZG and Head buff since everyone gets those buffs it's not competitive imo
Just more evidence of a massive lack of thought. No, everyone doesn't get it. Last time I checked those buffs require that you kill some bosses right?

The only person in this thread making any sort of a substantial argument has been Gruuz. However, it still won't stop raidloggers. The fact that people are raid-logging when DMF is not up is proof of this. We have people that literally do an entire weeks raiding on 1 single buff rotation, they don't log in at all with head/heart. They just renew the songflower.
 
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Gruuz, it's not that no one is affected by DMF in the way that you say, it's that the people affected are an extreme minority in each guild., which is why such a change won't won't have any significant impact on server activity.
 
Apparently they didn't teach probability in school where you're from, I'll call up the minister of education asap. Part of the effort is getting the high percentage. Your argument is literally one of "Let's give everyone DFTs and Femurs since it will be fair and then we can compete on equal footing, screw the RNG of droprates omg!" - Why stop there? Let's just put a vendor with T3 in it right since EVENTUALLY everyone is going to have it and it will be unfair for some good players who didn't get the RNG of their items dropping and they can't compete on meters then.
Slippery slope fallacy right there. If we let people drink water in class, they will start organizing dinners during classes.

No, my argument is not one of "[quoting garbage you wrote]". Gear is obtained in raids, and raiding is the highlight of raid guild gameplay. People play the game for raiding and community. People DO NOT play the game to see who ends up being the luckiest guy on DMF damage buff dice rolls. No, I don't want people to have gear vendors, don't twist my words. DMF buffing is just one more chore before the raid, pretty much the point of the game, actually starts.

They are not in contradiction as they have a requirement of actually getting the 10%. (2) has no competitive input of getting the buff and (5) does. It's fair for the rankings of those that put in the effort of getting the 10% to be placed on equal footing. If you remove the process of getting the 10% (which is the competitive element) then it's gone, but the people that get 10% are on equal footing. If you give EVERYONE, even the guys that pop it right before a raid you entirely remove the purpose of logging every 4 hours to ensure your good buff. Ie. you place slackers and tryhards on equal footing which is substantially more unfair. And giving something to EVERYONE (not the people that tryhard) then you render it negligible.
People who generally don't go for high DMF are typically garbage in PvE performance (average DPS component of it) anyway. They will never be able to compete with those who try and play well.

Simple example is, farming has a result of rewarding gold. Ie. time=gold. If a GM gives everyone on the server 5k gold, how much you think would 5k gold be worth? Nothing. Prices would just increase proportionately. Same with dps, give everyone 10% and they're just all going to do X amount of more dps, which they could have compared with or without the buff.
Your analogies are horrible. You can't just say "that's like saying [something completely wrong]" about everything. Believing things in your head isn't enough, man, things you say have to actually make sense.
I explained this once already. It's a monthly thing where everyone has increased damage output, introducing some dynamic to the weekly farming because guilds generally try harder during that one week and organize more competitive raid events. How is that same as everyone getting 5k gold once... If you do wish to make a comparison with farming or money, then you could perhaps compare it with consumables having increased duration one week a month, or costing less mats.

So let me get this straight, you have argued against GMs for implementing changes proposed by a vocal minority and now you're advocating changes to the server made by a minority? You guys have been complaining about the lack of blizzlike elements on this server basically permanently and then you make threads like this.
I will always argue against things I find stupid, as I have in the past. If there are positive changes, then I will support them too. Blizzlike is nice, yes. But I have never even once thought that, for example, respec cost should be 50g because blizzlike. I don't miss that cancer even the least bit and I fully support the 5g cap so that people can respec more easily and play more dynamically, and PvP between raids etc. It was especially helpful in the beginning of the server when everyone didn't have thousands of gold.

Ultimately, why does it matter what I have argued for in the past, in this particular case? Because I was against certain custom changes in the past that I found bad, I should have no right to suggest something else or support someone else doing so?

What is your actual problem here? You seem very upset, man. Want to talk about it?


None of your argument holds any ground. You are not forced to raidlog, you can gear alts, you can farm etc. You can literally make a char that is identical to your main on this server. No-one even needs hardly any gear anymore.
With you as a judge, being so strongly opposed to anything I say and having outright "you're wrong" approach towards me, sure, nothing I say holds ground. Luckily, you don't decide anything and I don't have to care about your opinion. Sadly, since this is a public discussion, other people can still read what you write and some of them who don't think things you write through can get swayed by your statements, so I have to respond to them.


Just more evidence of a massive lack of thought. No, everyone doesn't get it. Last time I checked those buffs require that you kill some bosses right?
Did you just write that every guild on this server can't get Hakkar and Onyxia buffs?
 
People who generally don't go for high DMF are typically garbage in PvE performance (average DPS component of it) anyway. They will never be able to compete with those who try and play well.

:stupid:
hammer.gif


i was with you on this matter but this whole thing about "big" players and "small" players throughout this thread is getting stupid.
 
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Oh... so it's a "convenience" argument. Okay, let's get some RDF in here that insta teles to instances. Let's add flying mounts boys! Add some dualspecs! Make those raids flex! Just trolling.

It's not a slippery slope fallacy, it's statistics, an extremely reliable and logical way of thinking.

Pretty ironic that you say I shouldn't put words in your mouth, when I made a factual analogy based on your argument, 'You want the RNG input of something removed and guarantee a single output that is inevitably obtainable by all' - That is giving something to someone they will eventually get without them having to work for it. Same principle as giving gear for free or giving anything for free, which is the polar opposite of what vanilla should represent. Your final quote you are PRECISELY guilty of putting words in my mouth. I did not say people can't get those buffs, nor that it is impossible for any guild, I'm simply saying that the effort of obtaining those buffs is in the form of downing bosses, not a mob that everyone has access to.

People who generally don't go for high DMF are typically garbage in PvE performance (average DPS component of it) anyway. They will never be able to compete with those who try and play well.
So that would be a minority of whom you speak? So people who don't fish the 10% prior to current raids then? Because they are a minority their opinion shouldn't count right? Almost like the minority of people that want to change DMF buff... hmm?

I'm not opposed to the idea itself. I'm opposed to your horrible motivation for wanting it.
1) To prevent raid logging. Stupid. The MASSIVE raid-logging that occurs during non-dmf buff is evidence of that.
2) Because it's 'inconvenient'. Stupid. The foundation of vanilla wow is based on inconvenience. Convenience is what turned the game into the shitpile it is today.
3) I would love it if it was always 10%. I have no motivation for wanting it that way, but I don't try to hide my subjective opinion that it should be that way behind some terribly flawed argument.

Your motivation for the 5g respec is very good, it keeps pvp alive and it allows people to play dynamically. You lack such an argument here and that's my point. You have no logical argument, you just "want" it.
Your previous motivation for going against decisions before has been "omg, it's not blizzlike", that's why I'm criticizing it.
I'm still giggling at the "forced" to raid log part.
 
You're wrong. If you leave DMF for last, you have the chance of getting ganked/purged while getting DMF. You also have the chance of getting the wrong percentage and then you waste the timers on your other buffs. You get DMF first. Losing 10 minutes on DMF doesn't matter when you clear AQ40/BWL in 50 mins. I am in Synced btw.

You doing something as a choice and requesting that the game be changed to cater for your bad decisions is bullshit. This would have 0 impact on anything, except raidloggers will not play and log in before the raid instead of logging in once every 4 hours to fish for the buff.

You are in synced? What is synecd? A new religion? The bestest tryhardest guild in universe? How does that contribute to any of the argument? Am i saying I used to be in this guild or that guild? Why are you bringing this up, are you fapping to your guild tag in your free times? Is being in synecd the greatest achievement and ultimate end-goal of your gaminq career as a pro vanilla gamer? Stop using your guild's name as an argument, kiddo. Let me remind you, it was YOUR GUILD'S former warrior dps class leader who brought up the whole raidlogging for DMF subject up, a long time ago, when you were not even around in those forums iirc. This argument has been brought up by many decent players regardless of guilds, I know a few who WOULD PvP more if something like this was changed back. When you have an active PvP community of 15 people, 2-3 more active pvpers actually mean shit. Your "lets koksuk da admins and blame da vengard bendveygohn" attitude is whats wrong with this server. You're fine with literally hundreds of custom changes for "Quality of Life" and "Convenience" but when admins remove one of those features you're still supporting their every decision like a fanatic and blaming people who wants those conveniences back? thats pretty much bullshit.

What is the difference between making it %10 always, reverting songflower etc., and the 5 gold respec cap? As far as blizzlikeness is considered, nothing. It is not going to give players a buff/unfair advantage that game does not allow them to get normally, it will simply reduce the amount of time they have to invest in a time sink. Same idea as the 5 gold respec cap, deny it all you like.

srsly lol first time i see someone using their guild's name as an argument :lol: I'm pretty sure people dont wanna bring this up because they play here seriously. But i dont, so if a spot a bullshit like this, i can call it out. You are full of s.

nice facepalm there gruuz, are you raiding with synecd too, when agony is on summer break? ( tinfoil hat conspiracy theory attempt, nvm me.)
 
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People who generally don't go for high DMF are typically garbage in PvE performance (average DPS component of it) anyway. They will never be able to compete with those who try and play well.
So that would be a minority of whom you speak? So people who don't fish the 10% prior to current raids then? Because they are a minority their opinion shouldn't count right? Almost like the minority of people that want to change DMF buff... hmm?

What opinion? What are you talking about? People who do not fish for 10% would most likely like to always have guaranteed 10% since they can't be bothered to fish for it. Obviously they don't care enough or they like to spend their time doing other things. So what OPINION of those people are you talking about here?

1) To prevent raid logging. Stupid. The MASSIVE raid-logging that occurs during non-dmf buff is evidence of that.
The way I understand this is that you are saying that since many people raid log anyway, we shouldn't care about some who don't but have to do it in order to remain competitive during DMF weeks.

I'm still giggling at the "forced" to raid log part.
If you are a person who cares about your numbers, you are forced to. if you don't do it, you are crippling your numbers and your class leader probably notices it, affecting your performance, loot, status, rank etc. Keep giggling.
 
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