fix AV, save K2

[TheOG]

I understand where you are coming from. My problem is that people simply refuse to TAKE VANILLA AT FACE VALUE. Sure, in theory you could rework the entire Vanilla PvP system from the ground up, making BG's work on a rating system and reward teams with the best win/loss ratios. But that's never going to happen on a BLIZZLIKE Vanilla server. People simply refuse to accept Vanilla for what it is, and fail to understand is that Premades farming PuGs will always be a part of Vanilla.

HOWEVER, the current amount of Prem V PuG stomps is greatly exaggerated because of Dodging. And I've said countless times that Deserter for dropping queue would fix this.

Fixing dodging would result in the healthiest possible Vanilla PvP scene. Premades would face each other often and be forced to battle for superiority. PuG v PuG games would happen much more often, while the Premades were locked in long games against each other. However, even in this healthy/ideal scene, PuGs getting farmed would still happen.

The problem is that people suggest extreme measures such as forcing Premades to only fight each other, or removing group queue completely, or bringing back multi-queue, without realizing that all of these things bring a massive amount of negative side effects with them.

Make Premades only fight each other = Rankers immediately switch to countdown solo queue, nothing changes. People say "So make countdown queue bannable," without thinking about how this would create extra work for staff, and be almost impossible to prove/enforce....... Then eventually will come the wintrading. If Premades are placed in a separate queue, then 2 teams can multi-queue and know that they will 100% always meet each other. Clearly this is highly exploitable. Anyone who played Nost knows that this ill-advised change to the BG system resulted in the rise of the Chinese r14 industry Wintraders and the death of PvP on that server.

Remove group queue = Forces everyone to play at the level of the lowest common denominator. If a skilled player who knows their role in WSG and spams consumes/engineering wants to rank, why should they be forced to solo queue and play alongside S key retards and Chinese AFKers?

Re-enable multi-queue = As soon as a different BG pops, whatever team is losing the current BG disappears and then game ends on a timer.

All of those ^^ situations are so much more cancer than what we have right now.

My point is that while the Vanilla PvP system is highly flawed, what we have currently is without a doubt the lesser of the evils. And it could be improved even more by adding Derserter for dropping queue.

 

[dkramer]

...they're just salty towards players that know how Vanilla works and have a fucking clue to join a Premade.

1 - You might change "Players that know how vanilla works" to "Players that know how to screw up pvp in a pserver.

2 - Most of players are whinning because they just want to have fun in PvP, they don't want to premade cuz it's not fun smashing 5 ungeared players.

3 - Unless my definition is wrong, premades are simple honor grind, for those who want PvP you tell they to grind(form a premade), so if everyone do so, PvP dies, and who just want to have fun in PvP will quit.

4 - No one will respect a player who got r14 by winning ghost battlegrounds/dodging other premades. Get used to attacks.

 

[Coutale]

...But that's never going to happen on a BLIZZLIKE Vanilla server. People simply refuse to accept Vanilla for what it is, and fail to understand is that Premades farming PuGs will always be a part of Vanilla.

With all the changes happening, it's a bit of a stretch to call any server 'blizzlike'. Wasn't the AV Kronos had completely 1.12.1 blizzlike? And yes, I can agree that premades are a part of vanilla, but not to the extent they are on private servers. I remember premades from 2006, and it was nothing like it is on private servers.

HOWEVER, the current amount of Prem V PuG stomps is greatly exaggerated because of Dodging. And I've said countless times that Deserter for dropping queue would fix this.

To continue from what I said above, I'd have absolutely nothing against premades if pug vs. premade games happened at around the same frequency they happened a decade ago, or at least a lot less than what they do currently. When 2/3 of pug games are against a premade, PvP becomes bullshit and there's no point in queuing.

As for the rest of your post, I pretty much agree (except for the current situation being the lesser of the evils). Disabling group queue would do nothing, grouping up shouldn't be denied and dodgers should fuck off.

 

[gomrund]

Remove group queue = Forces everyone to play at the level of the lowest common denominator. If a skilled player who knows their role in WSG and spams consumes/engineering wants to rank, why should they be forced to solo queue and play alongside S key retards and Chinese AFKers?

Why, for the greater good, of course. Point being to improve the overall quality of the scene at the cost of making a bunch of too-pro-for-their-own-good tryhards miserable. As opposed to catering to tryhards while making the rest of the server miserable.

Also notice a thing - if you force mix hardcore PvPers with fodder, they get the opportunity to work on improving the scene quality themselves. As long as they aren't autistic fucks who only spew vitriol in /bg, of course. Some of the most enjoyable games I've had on Nost were pugs where we had a bunch of complete randoms, and we hammered them into a well functioning group that eventually got an upper hand thanks to recently learned coordination. Certainly more fun than curb stomping afkers with a premade for honor.
Of course in such a scenario you won't have a fully flasked group and maybe half of them will have engi, but do you seriously need all that to enjoy PvP?

Chinese afkers should get mass banned obviously (Kronos is much smaller than Nost so hopefully it's doable).

 

[AsCE]

1 - You might change "Players that know how vanilla works" to "Players that know how to screw up pvp in a pserver.

2 - Most of players are whinning because they just want to have fun in PvP, they don't want to premade cuz it's not fun smashing 5 ungeared players.

3 - Unless my definition is wrong, premades are simple honor grind, for those who want PvP you tell they to grind(form a premade), so if everyone do so, PvP dies, and who just want to have fun in PvP will quit.

4 - No one will respect a player who got r14 by winning ghost battlegrounds/dodging other premades. Get used to attacks.

1. Premading doesnt screw up PVP on its own. Premades who dodge eachother is way worse than premades who fight eachother when given the chance.

Premades who fight eachother can actually be healthy for a server if the pug players are persistant enough to play eventho they might get a premade some times. Since it will breed competition between serious pvpers to try and get the strongest group.

At the moment we only have premades who dodge eachother which has led to pug players quitting. If every player who played AV when it was popular would just have switched to WSG - then we would probably only se pug vs premade 1 in 6 times. If the premades also fought eachother it would probably be 1 in 10 times.

However, the number of players doing WSG has gotten really small in comparison to server size since pugs just give up and premades just dodge. Now we are almost at a point where only "rankers" pvp and thus premades are a majority.

2. Most players dont just PvP to have fun, they are probably even fewer than the people who premade. The majority is players who PVP only to get gear.

3. There is (or atleast used to be on other servers i played) some integrity and valor in premading. On the first private server i played i started a horde premade (called Cow Train) to get my tauren warrior to r14. This lead to a bunch of alliance PVPers (r14's who just pvp to have fun) to create a guild called Train Cow. Our two premades could sit for hours just queing into eachother for really even and fun matches.

But yes, the main reason people premade is to maximize their win% to ensure themselves top standings which is needed to get the highest ranks. It's almost a necessity in order to prevent account-sellers/sharers from taking all the top standings by simply playing 24/7.

Atleast when premades are allowed you stand a chance at getting the highest ranks by commiting other things than just time. But there has to be some fix to make premades play against eachother more often - but definitely not all the time.

4. Agreed.

 

[TheOG]

dkramer is the new Retention, blindly flaming rankers while shilling retarded ideas about PvP :laugh:

 

[Lharts]

@AScE

1. Will never happen as it is inefficient. If a premades loses there is no reason why they should continue trying to win. Simple as that.

2. This is a true statement. Of course people who only play for fun are in the minority if you are on a constant crusade to slowly, but surely, ruin their fun. They just simply stop Qing and do something else instead. If premades didn't exists I am fairly sure these players would be the majority.

3. lol as if...

4. It doesn't matter if you premades or not, in the end the only reason you have your rank is because you played alot. How the games went down is irrelevant. Nothing worthy of respect.

 

[Coutale]

Premades who fight eachother can actually be healthy for a server if the pug players are persistant enough to play eventho they might get a premade some times. Since it will breed competition between serious pvpers to try and get the strongest group.

But yes, the main reason people premade is to maximize their win% to ensure themselves top standings which is needed to get the highest ranks. It's almost a necessity in order to prevent account-sellers/sharers from taking all the top standings by simply playing 24/7.

Stop romanticizing premading. It's not some noble thing people do for their love of competitive PvP, or something people do out of necessity in order to get any ranks. If it was, then why are there people premading who are between ranks 1-10? I don't personally know at what rank stomping pugs is a requirement to beat those elusive account sharers and to make sure you're progressing in ranks each week, but it sure as hell ain't at rank 4.

Most players dont just PvP to have fun, they are probably even fewer than the people who premade. The majority is players who PVP only to get gear.

You also said in the other thread that NOBODY did AV for the fun of it. So in other words, there's like 3 people on the whole server who PvP because they like PvP? Everybody else does it for the gear?

 

[maredasan]

2. Most players dont just PvP to have fun, they are probably even fewer than the people who premade. The majority is players who PVP only to get gear.

Who are you to conclude this? U think there are not and won't be enough full geared people who would gladly join a bg if it weren't for premades ruining their experience? Bah I guess it's no use, shitty ego personalities stay shitty ego personalities.

 

[bl4ckc0d3r]

We need Minoan in this thread to share his wisdom with us.

 

[riplip]

PvP is much more healthy than it was before.

Coming from a mage, for real? the fuck?

- - - Updated - - -

2. Most players dont just PvP to have fun, they are probably even fewer than the people who premade. The majority is players who PVP only to get gear.

You're full of shit. This can be proven in multiple ways, including your tendency to make numbered lists of moot points and creating echo-chamber speculation that has no real application.

 

[AsCE]

@AScE

1. Will never happen as it is inefficient. If a premades loses there is no reason why they should continue trying to win. Simple as that.

2. This is a true statement. Of course people who only play for fun are in the minority if you are on a constant crusade to slowly, but surely, ruin their fun. They just simply stop Qing and do something else instead. If premades didn't exists I am fairly sure these players would be the majority.

3. lol as if...

4. It doesn't matter if you premades or not, in the end the only reason you have your rank is because you played alot. How the games went down is irrelevant. Nothing worthy of respect.

1. There are a whole bunch of people who want to play premade vs premade just to have fun, sadly most of them quit after the multiple vanilla server fiascos over the years - and are quietly waiting in the shadows for a decent TBC server.

2. Even if there were no premades, i am 100% sure that players who play to have fun would be fewer than players who play to get gear. Every piece of evidence points towards that, unless you count "getting gear" as "having fun", because there are plenty of people who play to have fun... but quit once getting gear is no longer easy.

3. Yup, true story.

4. As with anything in life worth having, it does not come easy. Of course you have to put in tonnes of time to be one of the top 0.1% of pvpers. The difference between doing it with a premade and doing it solo is that it becomes more about consistancy and less about just dumping huge amounts of time. Guess why Ceon went from getting 700k honor per week to getting 40k honor per week. - He cant AFK in WSG, thats why.

Who are you to conclude this? U think there are not and won't be enough full geared people who would gladly join a bg if it weren't for premades ruining their experience? Bah I guess it's no use, shitty ego personalities stay shitty ego personalities.

There are full geared players who would pvp, however after 7 years of vanilla i can make the conclusion that green/blue geared players who pvp only to get gear is a way larger group.

A vast majority of full geared players quit or "raid-log" while complaining that content is either reasing too slowly or is too easy.

Stop romanticizing premading. It's not some noble thing people do for their love of competitive PvP, or something people do out of necessity in order to get any ranks. If it was, then why are there people premading who are between ranks 1-10? I don't personally know at what rank stomping pugs is a requirement to beat those elusive account sharers and to make sure you're progressing in ranks each week, but it sure as hell ain't at rank 4.



You also said in the other thread that NOBODY did AV for the fun of it. So in other words, there's like 3 people on the whole server who PvP because they like PvP? Everybody else does it for the gear?

I'm rank 7, getting rank 8 next week. I have made 1 run to UBRS, other than that i made no PVE - my gear is complete shit. But i love premading, one reason is because it lets me get ranks without having to play 24/7 and one reason is that playing as an organized group of 10 players vs an organized group of 10 players is way more fun than playing pug vs pug - in my eyes.

Its the same as i hate playing DOTA2 solo, its the worst thing i can imagine - but playing with a team of 5 vs 5 in a league or tournament is among the most fun i've had in my life.

Some people are competitive, some people are not. It's going to be that way in every game... but the reason why vanilla is still being played by thousands of people is that it does not cater to the lowest common denominator. You dont get gear by playing solo, you dont get lvl 60 in a week by playing 2-3 hours per day. And its the same fucking thing with PVP... you dont get the highest ranks without grouping up - even in retail vanilla where 90% of players were casuals.

In retail i helped multiple guildies reach rank 14, and those players played premades all day long - reaching 1 mil to 1.1 mil honor per week. The only difference was that there were 9 times more casual players in retail than hardcore players. On K2 we have 9 times more hardcore players than casual players - and this is why pugs face premades all the time..

If casual players who just pvp to have fun were such a large group as people are saying, then they would way out number the premades and most games would be pug vs pug - but this is just not the case.

And no, if you want a lot of people to start pvping you shouldnt remove premades, you should remove the rank requirements for gear and just let anyone get the r14 weapons for a set amount of honor (like in TBC)... then we would see a huge surge of pvp players, eventho there is still premades. However, this is a terrible idea because obvious reasons.

 

[snawfu]

I think the only requirement to get R14 weapons and R13 armor should be a heartfelt forum post/PM to the developers explaining why the individual in question should get or deserve them.

Looking at the amount of posts we're getting here I'm sure you guys would stand a pretty high chance )

 

[Coutale]

1. There are a whole bunch of people who want to play premade vs premade just to have fun, sadly most of them quit after the multiple vanilla server fiascos over the years - and are quietly waiting in the shadows for a decent TBC server.

I see. So there are people who want to PvP just for the fun, but they're just not playing WoW at the moment. And those who are playing, don't enjoy PvP, only do it for gear and nobody likes AV. Gotcha.

You're just full of information aren't you.

If casual players who just pvp to have fun were such a large group as people are saying, then they would way out number the premades and most games would be pug vs pug - but this is just not the case.

It's not quite that simple though. Casuals don't play because WSG isn't PvP for them. It's standing at gy waiting for game to end or starting a game with 5 players against a premade. Why would anybody who enjoys PvP would queue for that. I'm not saying there'd be 4000 casuals queuing for BG's if premades disappeared, but it sure would be more people than are queuing now.

It's kinda like twinks back in the day. How many people between the levels 10 and 19 do you think enjoyed playing and kept queuing to battlegrounds when they knew they'd just get farmed by twinks?

But, of course, that problem wasn't caused by twinks, it was peoples own fault for not wanting to twink.

 

[AsCE]

I see. So there are people who want to PvP just for the fun, but they're just not playing WoW at the moment. And those who are playing, don't enjoy PvP, only do it for gear and nobody likes AV. Gotcha.

You're just full of information aren't you.



It's not quite that simple though. Casuals don't play because WSG isn't PvP for them. It's standing at gy waiting for game to end or starting a game with 5 players against a premade. Why would anybody who enjoys PvP would queue for that. I'm not saying there'd be 4000 casuals queuing for BG's if premades disappeared, but it sure would be more people than are queuing now.

It's kinda like twinks back in the day. How many people between the levels 10 and 19 do you think enjoyed playing and kept queuing to battlegrounds when they knew they'd just get farmed by twinks?

But, of course, that problem wasn't caused by twinks, it was peoples own fault for not wanting to twink.

Never said nobody likes AV. The only thing i am saying is that there are not as many "i only pvp for fun"-players as you think. And if there were, premades would not have been such a huge problem in the first place so that the few "pvp for fun"-players wouldnt have had to quit.

And i dont know why you bring up twinking, since that has nothing to do with what we are discussing. But if there were no twinks, there would not be this many low lvl bgs, and there sure as hell wouldnt have been an entire day of 20-29 AB during the weekend.

 

[SuperomegaOP]

I found it funny that as soon as AV weekend was over there were 2 more games(a ~31v31 and a ~22v22) before the queue stopped popping all together. There hasn't been an AV poping on k2 since. Now its back to WSG spam instead of AV spam.

people don't realize that all the bgs are shit when you do them a hundred times+ to gain rep and/or honor. It doesn't matter what bg is up, rankers will flock to the one that gives the most honor every time.


honestly competitive vanilla pvp is fucked, people are just exploiting a fundamently broken system.

 

[geodude074]

Surely you realise that AV is the worst designed pile of shit in WoW history and no minute nitpicking is going to change that?

I completely disagree. Vanilla AV was THE BEST BATTLEGROUND I have ever played in an MMORPG. The best PVP memories I ever had was playing 2+ hour long AV battles where both sides are deadlocked and there's a huge battle going on at the Alliance bridge and it's all out war with 80 people killing each other to gain a few inches of ground.

That's why I joined Kronos, for Vanilla AV.

 

[Revo]

AV was the best BG in vanilla history.
it was like tarrens mill vs southshore combined with an OG raid.