Paladin Judgement of the Crusader
- Thread starter frederik
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Full disclosure here - since I originally thought it was a bug when I played on Peenix where the devs coded Judgement of the Crusader to only allow the highest debuff to be applied (no stacking).
But when I found the evidence from 2005 showing multiple ranks of Judgement of Wisdom stacking and Killerduki found the patch 2.4 notes where Blizzard removed multiple ranks from stacking, it made it plausible that the functionality was there all along.
Can I prove it with 100% certainty, no because as I said earlier, Retribution was not a universally accepted raiding spec in Vanilla and you were lucky to find one raiding Ret, let alone multiple Rets in the same raiding guild. But the evidence shows it leaning that way and the devs on Nost agreed with me.
killerduki
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Maybe if you return back the "killerduki" from your fellow Mathystra would make you more mature 1 inch instead keeping it busy and inactive .
Psojed
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From the same blog:
http://paladin-guide.blogspot.cz/2005/12/paladin-combat-system_21.html
The patch note clearly states ICON, as in there were two icons displayed, but no beneficial effect was applied.
And the other blog's entry about stacking different ranks of judgement of wisdom is just theorycrafting. If you click at comments for the entry, the author says that he has to try it out in MC
Even if it was true, his comment is older than the abovementioned "don't stack" comment.
http://paladin-guide.blogspot.cz/2005/12/paladin-combat-system_21.html
The patch note clearly states ICON, as in there were two icons displayed, but no beneficial effect was applied.
And the other blog's entry about stacking different ranks of judgement of wisdom is just theorycrafting. If you click at comments for the entry, the author says that he has to try it out in MC
Even if it was true, his comment is older than the abovementioned "don't stack" comment.
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killerduki
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From the same blog:
http://paladin-guide.blogspot.cz/2005/12/paladin-combat-system_21.html
The patch note clearly states ICON, as in there were two icons displayed, but no beneficial effect was applied.
And the other blog's entry about stacking different ranks of judgement of wisdom is just theorycrafting. If you click at comments for the entry, the author says that he has to try it out in MC
still don't stack doesn't say "different ranks" , we all know that the same rank does not stack.
"magical judgement as such" could be also jow/jol/jotc where all 3 of them indeed stack.
(same rank not , but different ranks yes)
From the same blog:
http://paladin-guide.blogspot.cz/2005/12/paladin-combat-system_21.html
The patch note clearly states ICON, as in there were two icons displayed, but no beneficial effect was applied.
And the other blog's entry about stacking different ranks of judgement of wisdom is just theorycrafting. If you click at comments for the entry, the author says that he has to try it out in MC
the blogspot comment is at best poorly worded and hardly conclusive on your theory.
as for the http://wow.allakhazam.com/forum.html...87757594799940 link, it isn't theory crafting as the author specifically says they did it on their last Ragnaros kill:
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#5Oct 09 2005 at 2:50 AMRating: Decent
Cathela
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Multiple paladins can stack different ranks of the judgements on the same mob. The last time my raid group killed Ragnaros we didn't have enough priests to do AoE heals on the rogues, so the three paladins in the melee groups coordinated different ranks of Judgement of Light on him, and the rogues and dps warriors ended up healing themselves a lot.
Psojed
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The blogspot article has the same value as the statement "You should be able to stack up multiple judgement of the crusade ranks to target" that started this discussion. Same value as your posted evidence.
Also, you missed an important part Theloras, stating "And the other blog's entry..". I was talking about this
http://paladinsucks.blogspot.cz/2005_08_01_archive.html
I'll simply stop replying to these comments and wait if you and killerduki can prove your theories.
Also, you missed an important part Theloras, stating "And the other blog's entry..". I was talking about this
http://paladinsucks.blogspot.cz/2005_08_01_archive.html
I'll simply stop replying to these comments and wait if you and killerduki can prove your theories.
http://paladinsucks.blogspot.cz/2005_08_01_archive.html has nothing about different ranks, stacking etc...so not sure what you are talking about when you say:
"Also, you missed an important part Theloras, stating "And the other blog's entry.."
http://paladin-guide.blogspot.com/20...udgements.htmlis a different link entirely and he says:
"Judgements, if activated on the same target from different paladins, don’t stack."
Obviously, if 2 Paladins Judge the same max level rank of a Judgement, they do not stack and I am not advocating that they should. But nowhere does he state that different ranks do not stack - that's the difference.
In the link that you provided, he only talks about max rank for both Judgement of Light and Wisdom:
We've got two amazing judgments that are very beneficial to groups: Judgement of Light and Judgement of Wisdom. Judgement of Light grants all melee attacks at it's rank 4 the chance of healing themselves for 61 hp. Judgement of Wisdom grants all attacks the ability to restore 59 mana. For example, casters with wands do not have the ability to be affected by Judgement of Light, whereas with Judgement of Wisdom they do. Makes sense? Warriors and Rogues don't need mana.
Comparatively, here we have evidence from the same era of a Paladin specifically stating that different ranks of Judgements from different Paladins DO IN FACT STACK:
http://wow.allakhazam.com/forum.html...87757594799940
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#5Oct 09 2005 at 2:50 AMRating: Decent
Cathela
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Multiple paladins can stack different ranks of the judgements on the same mob. The last time my raid group killed Ragnaros we didn't have enough priests to do AoE heals on the rogues, so the three paladins in the melee groups coordinated different ranks of Judgement of Light on him, and the rogues and dps warriors ended up healing themselves a lot.
TLDR: You have proven that MAX RANK JUDGEMENTS should not stack on top of each other - which isn't something that I ever claimed to be true - but my evidence shows that multiple ranks of Judgements did in fact stack.
"Also, you missed an important part Theloras, stating "And the other blog's entry.."
http://paladin-guide.blogspot.com/20...udgements.htmlis a different link entirely and he says:
"Judgements, if activated on the same target from different paladins, don’t stack."
Obviously, if 2 Paladins Judge the same max level rank of a Judgement, they do not stack and I am not advocating that they should. But nowhere does he state that different ranks do not stack - that's the difference.
In the link that you provided, he only talks about max rank for both Judgement of Light and Wisdom:
We've got two amazing judgments that are very beneficial to groups: Judgement of Light and Judgement of Wisdom. Judgement of Light grants all melee attacks at it's rank 4 the chance of healing themselves for 61 hp. Judgement of Wisdom grants all attacks the ability to restore 59 mana. For example, casters with wands do not have the ability to be affected by Judgement of Light, whereas with Judgement of Wisdom they do. Makes sense? Warriors and Rogues don't need mana.
Comparatively, here we have evidence from the same era of a Paladin specifically stating that different ranks of Judgements from different Paladins DO IN FACT STACK:
http://wow.allakhazam.com/forum.html...87757594799940
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#5Oct 09 2005 at 2:50 AMRating: Decent
Cathela
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Multiple paladins can stack different ranks of the judgements on the same mob. The last time my raid group killed Ragnaros we didn't have enough priests to do AoE heals on the rogues, so the three paladins in the melee groups coordinated different ranks of Judgement of Light on him, and the rogues and dps warriors ended up healing themselves a lot.
TLDR: You have proven that MAX RANK JUDGEMENTS should not stack on top of each other - which isn't something that I ever claimed to be true - but my evidence shows that multiple ranks of Judgements did in fact stack.
Psojed
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Read it again.
If the person writing an article about judgements had in mind one specific rank of the spell, or ALL ranks of the spell, we don't know. You can keep assuming what you want, I will keep assuming he talked about all ranks of all judgements in general, at least until you prove me wrong.
Nope, he talks about different ranks of wisdom:
It's right there.
But it's even older than the other blog source, so it won't help much, and if you look at the way the author wrote his posts, he's taking information from random sources like gossip that people email him or that he stumbled upon on the official forums. Some of his posts are hoaxes, like some "leaked" patch notes. But that's not related to our topic, so feel free to browse the blog for yourself.
I've seen this link like a dozen times already. Let's just say that repeated posting of one single evidence link won't make your statements more important (or any more proving for that matter).
No, I haven't proven anything about max rank judgements, that's just what you assumed from reading the linked source. The link doesn't state anything specifically about any given spell rank, so please don't set its meaning to suit your own needs. The only meaningful difference between those articles is that my source contradicts your source and my source is posted later than your source.
Reason for that is that both your evidences are from 2005, that is before the "paladin revamp" and several patches away from 1.12. There are many different things that worked somehow in 2005, for example the raid dungeons were different in 2005, but we don't change the raids to how they were back in 2005 on Kronos just because they once worked like that in 2005, right? Nope, we change them to how they worked in 1.12.
We don't have a single comment, discussion, guide, video or screenshot of multiple paladins stacking their judgements of light or wisdom or crusader. From 1.12, not even from after the paladin revamp.
TLDR: Find another source, closer to patch 1.12, or didn't happen.
PS: Thottbot, wowhead, allakhazam, even wowwiki, are comments, discussions, opinions etc. written by players, players who can be mistaken, and simply by reading through the comments themselves, you will find lots of misinformation. There is a reason when the devs are asking for something solid.
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"If the person writing an article about judgements had in mind one specific rank of the spell, or ALL ranks of the spell, we don't know. You can keep assuming what you want, I will keep assuming he talked about all ranks of all judgements in general, at least until you prove me wrong."
FACE MEET PALM...
I HAVE proven you wrong with first hand evidence from retail Vanilla with a player who specifically states that multiple Paladins each put up different ranks of Judgement of Light:
http://wow.allakhazam.com/forum.html...87757594799940
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#5Oct 09 2005 at 2:50 AMRating: Decent
Cathela
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961 posts
Multiple paladins can stack different ranks of the judgements on the same mob. The last time my raid group killed Ragnaros we didn't have enough priests to do AoE heals on the rogues, so the three paladins in the melee groups coordinated different ranks of Judgement of Light on him, and the rogues and dps warriors ended up healing themselves a lot.
"TLDR: Find another source, closer to patch 1.12, or didn't happen."
Jesus Christ man, even when presented with actual first hand evidence from both Vanilla and TBC with the multiple JotC stacking being specifically removed by Blizzard in 2.4, you are being obtuse beyond the max and I'm done trying to explain actual Vanilla mechanics to a fucking ***** mongoloid who doesn't believe solid first hand evidence.
GG not gonna bother playing with retards like you...
In before you say that fucking Seal Twisting didn't exist in Vanilla either cause we don't have any proof of anyone who used it during that period so that means IT MUST NOT HAVE EXISTED AT ALL!!!
GG @ your logic
And in case you are too dense to understand the statement above, Seal Twisting became doable when Blizzard added in the 0.5 second delay to Seal of Command during Vanilla but it wasn't discovered until mid TBC.
FACE MEET PALM...
I HAVE proven you wrong with first hand evidence from retail Vanilla with a player who specifically states that multiple Paladins each put up different ranks of Judgement of Light:
http://wow.allakhazam.com/forum.html...87757594799940
Quote
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#5Oct 09 2005 at 2:50 AMRating: Decent
Cathela
Scholar
**
961 posts
Multiple paladins can stack different ranks of the judgements on the same mob. The last time my raid group killed Ragnaros we didn't have enough priests to do AoE heals on the rogues, so the three paladins in the melee groups coordinated different ranks of Judgement of Light on him, and the rogues and dps warriors ended up healing themselves a lot.
"TLDR: Find another source, closer to patch 1.12, or didn't happen."
Jesus Christ man, even when presented with actual first hand evidence from both Vanilla and TBC with the multiple JotC stacking being specifically removed by Blizzard in 2.4, you are being obtuse beyond the max and I'm done trying to explain actual Vanilla mechanics to a fucking ***** mongoloid who doesn't believe solid first hand evidence.
GG not gonna bother playing with retards like you...
In before you say that fucking Seal Twisting didn't exist in Vanilla either cause we don't have any proof of anyone who used it during that period so that means IT MUST NOT HAVE EXISTED AT ALL!!!
GG @ your logic
And in case you are too dense to understand the statement above, Seal Twisting became doable when Blizzard added in the 0.5 second delay to Seal of Command during Vanilla but it wasn't discovered until mid TBC.
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He ONLY talks about max rank Judgements not stacking in his post - not different ranks - whereas my evidence specifically states that different ranks do stack.
Your previous "evidence" was this where he only listed max rank JoL and JoW:
We've got two amazing judgments that are very beneficial to groups: Judgement of Light and Judgement of Wisdom. Judgement of Light grants all melee attacks at it's rank 4 the chance of healing themselves for 61 hp. Judgement of Wisdom grants all attacks the ability to restore 59 mana. For example, casters with wands do not have the ability to be affected by Judgement of Light, whereas with Judgement of Wisdom they do. Makes sense? Warriors and Rogues don't need mana.
http://paladinsucks.blogspot.ca/2005_08_01_archive.html
English much?
Your previous "evidence" was this where he only listed max rank JoL and JoW:
We've got two amazing judgments that are very beneficial to groups: Judgement of Light and Judgement of Wisdom. Judgement of Light grants all melee attacks at it's rank 4 the chance of healing themselves for 61 hp. Judgement of Wisdom grants all attacks the ability to restore 59 mana. For example, casters with wands do not have the ability to be affected by Judgement of Light, whereas with Judgement of Wisdom they do. Makes sense? Warriors and Rogues don't need mana.
http://paladinsucks.blogspot.ca/2005_08_01_archive.html
English much?
Psojed
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Okay you oaf, look.
I NEVER quoted this:
That's what YOU quoted. Stop putting MAX RANK into my posts, because I NEVER linked anything about MAX RANK anywhere and I never linked a quote about MAX RANK to counter any of your posts.
The only reason I ever linked http://paladinsucks.blogspot.ca/2005_08_01_archive.html was because it actually SUPPORTS your claims:
I also said, that http://paladinsucks.blogspot.ca/2005_08_01_archive.html is even older than the allakhazam link or the http://paladin-guide.blogspot.cz/ sources. MY quote:
My point still stands.
You have proven (with the allakhazam link) that there was a time in 2005, when debuff judgements like wisdom, light or crusader could be stacked on a single enemy target, from multiple paladins. But none of the later sources like discussions, paladin guides or other comments confirm that this mechanic LASTED until patch 1.12, instead I linked you an article which states that it DID NOT WORK in late December 2005. That means there was probably a stealth nerf.
I NEVER quoted this:
That's what YOU quoted. Stop putting MAX RANK into my posts, because I NEVER linked anything about MAX RANK anywhere and I never linked a quote about MAX RANK to counter any of your posts.
The only reason I ever linked http://paladinsucks.blogspot.ca/2005_08_01_archive.html was because it actually SUPPORTS your claims:
This is the only part that I wanted to talk about, nothing else in that article matters and I really regret NOT quoting the part in my first post, because it would save you a misunderstanding and save me from writing these walls of text for you Theloras.
I also said, that http://paladinsucks.blogspot.ca/2005_08_01_archive.html is even older than the allakhazam link or the http://paladin-guide.blogspot.cz/ sources. MY quote:
http://forum.twinstar.cz/showthread...f-the-Crusader?p=800661&viewfull=1#post800661
And the other blog's entry about stacking different ranks of judgement of wisdom is just theorycrafting. If you click at comments for the entry, the author says that he has to try it out in MC
My point still stands.
You have proven (with the allakhazam link) that there was a time in 2005, when debuff judgements like wisdom, light or crusader could be stacked on a single enemy target, from multiple paladins. But none of the later sources like discussions, paladin guides or other comments confirm that this mechanic LASTED until patch 1.12, instead I linked you an article which states that it DID NOT WORK in late December 2005. That means there was probably a stealth nerf.
Lharts
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I got so fed up with this bullshit that I actually wound up investing even more time that I already did into this matter.
Who would have thought that after another 2h of searching I couldn't even find a single reliable source that confirms your claims.
If Judgment stacking was indeed possible there should be MANY sources. Even 2006+ ones. Like, that shit should be top priority information in every paladin guide in existance, no?
Who would have thought that after another 2h of searching I couldn't even find a single reliable source that confirms your claims.
If Judgment stacking was indeed possible there should be MANY sources. Even 2006+ ones. Like, that shit should be top priority information in every paladin guide in existance, no?
bl4ckc0d3r
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cuz you were so helpful back on peenix right?
oh wait...you were a complete douche
- - - Updated - - -
TLDR - The absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence:
https://github.com/FeenixServerProje...er/issues/4025
- well look there, I proved that something which wasn't discovered until TBC was actually there all along during Vanilla from patch 1.11 onwards...
- - - Updated - - -
No I did not - he never mentions ranks in any of his stacking assertions of Judgements being applied by different Paladins - the only time he discusses ranks at all in his blog is when he describes MAX RANK and that MAX RANK from different Paladins does not stack.
I have never claimed that MAX RANK Judgements should stack - and even if there was a stealth nerf to different rank stacking, how the hell would you like me to prove that to you?
You already accept my evidence that different rank stacking was legit.
Psojed
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Blackpeixera
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Just for Theloras and Duki:
The onus of trying to prove something is on yours. Psojed doesn't have to prove anything because he isn't the one trying to claim that something isn't working vanilla-like.
And since he's a paladin, he would too be happy with judgestacking, since it would make rets a bit more viable in a specific raid.
But if what you guys are bringing is just anedoctal blogbullshit evidence with swears and curses, then fuck off and go back to Feenix.
This is not Nostalrius. This is not Feenix. Get fucking used to it already. No one wants it to become Nost or Feenix either.
The onus of trying to prove something is on yours. Psojed doesn't have to prove anything because he isn't the one trying to claim that something isn't working vanilla-like.
And since he's a paladin, he would too be happy with judgestacking, since it would make rets a bit more viable in a specific raid.
But if what you guys are bringing is just anedoctal blogbullshit evidence with swears and curses, then fuck off and go back to Feenix.
This is not Nostalrius. This is not Feenix. Get fucking used to it already. No one wants it to become Nost or Feenix either.
killerduki
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You are wrong little there ^
In Nostalrius you was able to Stack , in Feenix you was not able to stack .
And @Blackpeixera i am not trying anything , i just bring evidence with links and mini analyze , nothing more so don't put words in my mouth.
Only one thing i would say which i have this joker in my bags but i will enjoy reading the fun until then.
JoL and JoW multiple ranks stacking was removed in 1 of the Vanilla Patch Notes early while JoTC stacking was removed in TBC Patch .
Now i will let you search that by yourself , i wont bother with some conclusions which many didn't even experienced during 2005/6 the reason they don't know about .
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Now that is just a flat out fucking lie...
Re: Multiple Judgement of Crusade should not be Bannable
by Nano » Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:25 am
No one has been banned for this and they won't because it's working as intended. This whole thread has run its course.
https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=25589&start=30#p182280
Blackpeixera
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You call a editable wiki evidence?
You can forum posts evidence?
What the hell is this, a witchhunt? Are you gonna base the entire concept of blizzlike on memories and he-said-she-said?
Provide VIDEO EVIDENCE, provide a smoking gun. You're giving doubtful evidence, nothing there can be considered factual, and since Blizzard's gms aren't allowed to comment on the matter, you have to embrace this as it is, or find better evidence.
I for sure wouldn't want to have you as a lawyer.
"Judge, i provided maximum evidence in the form of testimonies, but i couldn't provide more accurate facts because they don't seem to exist...so you should take what i speak as truth and make your decision based on what i think it's the correct answer here.
If you don't, you're a hater."
Fuck off. -_-'