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Just interested : reasons why horde pugs usually win more than alliance pugs

Lehran

New Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2015
It's a relatively known fact on vanilla servers, and yet, ally premades are often more efficient than horde premades.

Pugs :

-elemental shamans very op in pugs?
-Paladins not holy specced in pugs?
-Wotf way more useful in pugs?
-more healers on the horde side?
-Too many melee players (alliance)?
-Defensive mindset (alliance)?

Premade :
-Paladins great potential revealed : team less subject to cc
-less fear-based classes on ally premades : nullifies the undead racial effect
-Stronger buffs for alliance players : BOK, might
-warrior + paladin combo = super strong

Something that i might be missing concerning both points? Or could i be wrong somewhere?

Thanks
 
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I'd say none of the things you mentioned matter. There is really a difference in the amount of classes playing, for example the amount of priests, but the difference is not gamebreaking. But...
Alliance has a defensive mindset? HAHAHAHA you made me laugh so hard in the morning. Alliance pugs like never EVER defend. Best case scenario someone intercepts a player at ramp, usually they just fight in the middle.

Some observations:

- When a pug alliance mage comes to assist the FC, usually he throws a max rank frostbolt and keeps hitting one target, while the other pursuers are free to go after FC. When a pug horde mage comes to assist the FC, usually he throws 2-3 polymorphs and keeps pestering anyone in range with frostbolt r1 until FC is long gone.

- Alliance pug has ZERO communication. Most of the time, nobody is even scouting. Messages like "3 inc ramp" "efc tun" "5 horde mid" are almost non-existent. Can't say about the horde pug side.

- Alliance pug flag carriers are usually warriors, mages, paladins, sometimes hunters. There are rare exceptions when there is a druid. Horde pug flag carriers are shamans, druids, priests, mages, rogues, sometimes warriors. Notice the difference in the amount of classes with speed buff.

- When the flags exchange places, Horde pug FC has a +2-3 defending, rest ZERG our flagroom, using stuff like Tracking or Mind Vision to find FC and kill him fast. Alliance FC has +1 defending (sometimes none), yet alliance players roam midfield, trying to catch mounted horde players, while 2-3 people are actually attacking FC. Also most of the time, nobody reports where the damn horde FC is...

Gotta play some WSG again so that I refresh my memory about other stuff.
 
It's a relatively known fact on vanilla servers, and yet, ally premades are often more efficient than horde premades.

Pugs :

-elemental shamans very op in pugs?
-Paladins not holy specced in pugs?
-Wotf way more useful in pugs?
-more healers on the horde side?
-Too many melee players (alliance)?
-Defensive mindset (alliance)?

Premade :
-Paladins great potential revealed : team less subject to cc
-less fear-based classes on ally premades : nullifies the undead racial effect
-Stronger buffs for alliance players : BOK, might
-warrior + paladin combo = super strong

Something that i might be missing concerning both points? Or could i be wrong somewhere?

Thanks

Unsure
 
I've played on a lot of vanilla servers and I've noticed this routinely across all servers. Noticed a few reasons that could likely explain this phenominon. I've thought about this a little bit. Even if you switched paladins and shamans on both factions the result will be similar.

#1 People roll horde to pvp.
Most people think the horde racials are better for pvp in vanilla so they roll horde for them. If you look at the racials outright this is easy to believe. Horde racials tend to outshine alliance racials in more contexts then Alliance racials do. If you look at horde racials also, they are also better in solo contexts or small group contexts then they are in group contexts. I do believe, however, that alliance racials are better suited for super top tier group pvp combat, but this view is not shared by the vast majority of the vanilla community. Thus, pvpers roll horde to pvp, primarily seeking an edge.

#2 Red vs Blue phenominon
Game theory explains why in most situations where there is a red color vs a blue color in competition all other factors being equal the red color will win:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X31K6jammH0

However, in group competitions such as MOBAS (or alliance premades for example) blue is more likely to encompass strategy, and long term results, and wins more often. Red is humanly associalted with impulse (solo / small queues) If you look at the horde characters they also tend to look much more intimidating then alliance ones do. If you mix the color red, along with the general scariness factor horde characters have, the psychology behind the game gives horde a distinct SOLO advantage. I believe that horde players are more likely to assert agression because of their team color and characters features then alliance players are. If a gnome kills a horde player he is likely to come to a thought: "that little gnome shit." However, if a tauren or an orc defeats a gnome the gnome is more likely to think: "I have no chance in this competition." If you combine players of both factions at medium-low range skill this psychology has a huge impact.

#3 There are always many more horde players pvping then there are alliance players
Again, since most horde pvpers roll horde looking for that advantage, there are more of them. This means horde queues are always routinely longer then alliance queues even when there might be a 50/50 split in population

#4 Alliance premades are a response to a need while horde premades are not
Since most pvpers tend to roll horde to pvp, and since there is a distinct psychological advantage to being horde, and since there are always more horde queing then alliance are queing, Alliance premades always result. This gives strong willed alliance a chance to overcome some of the psychological disadvantages they might face. Facing a premade is scary for any pug. This also gives them a chance to filter out those super casual non-pvpers that heavily populate the alliance faction. Finally, it facilitates group play which is much more common on the alliance faction.

In conclusion: Those that pick horde to pvp are in the norm and are above average. Those that pick alliance to pvp knowing all of the above are the elite.

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Pugs :

-elemental shamans very op in pugs? They are more likely to heal then retris, so I'd say yes.
-Paladins not holy specced in pugs? Like it or not, this is a major issue on alliance side. Egoism vs. Teamplay.
-Wotf way more useful in pugs? Common misconception. Many alliance locks do not even fear cause its "uselss anyways". Result is, wotf is always ready when the UD needs it making the racial seem more OP then it actually is. Properly played dwarf priest is 10x more annoying then wotf could ever be.
-more healers on the horde side? I blame purge and windfury for that. With hordes already higher pressure and team mates that don't support you I really don't feel playing healer as alli is much fun in pugs.
-Too many melee players (alliance)? Nah.
-Defensive mindset (alliance)? They usually give up too fast.

Premade :
-Paladins great potential revealed : team less subject to cc Cross dispel is insanely powerful
-less fear-based classes on ally premades : nullifies the undead racial effect Utter CC immunity with proper setup
-Stronger buffs for alliance players : BOK, might Better synergy of class abilities and racials.
-warrior + paladin combo = super strong Depends. Purge almost nullifies all a Paladon can bring to the table while Windfury will be up at least 10 sec no matter what. I wouldn't blame it on the paladin/warrior combination and rather on paladins alone. Well played pallies are gamechangers.

The synergy is the biggest part for me. Race/class combos, Paladin buffs and also special abilities like Fearward etc (i.e. mobility advantage due to Escape Artist, Stone Form against poisons and of course Blessing of Freedom).
 
Psojed summ it up. When you pug on ally side don't expect any communitacion, any fc help, rets dispelling etc.
 
Alliance rankers gather in premades, horde rankers dont. So most pug games are won by horde because rankers tip the balance. Not rocket science.
This would require horde rankers to be better then pugs. No.
Horde rankers don't 10 man from what I know, they group up nonetheless.
 
I think there are some faction based issues (Rets being easily the most damaging, as Alliance have fewer healers in general), but to me the main issue has to be the quitter mentality found on Alliance.

Almost all Alliance PUGs expect to lose (even when better geared and having a better setup, hello Vanguard!) and refuse to communicate and play for objectives because they just want the battle to be over as soon as possible, i.e. "just let them win".

If you work super hard you can change the mentality a bit by carrying super hard, but having to constantly tryhard is reducing the fun you have and is, at least for me, not sustainable over multiple games, thus leading to dedicated Alliance rankers and PvPers "hiding" in premades and being pseudo-AFK when forced to PUG.
 
Also I bet those level 60s who enter battlegrounds with their 30-45 levelling equipment don't make any difference :wink:
 
Played alliance in retail. PvPed to rank 12. Wanted to try the Horde side, PvP but only casual... I guess I don't fit the profile
 
I only have a very small sample size of played bgs recently, but each time there is a distinct lack of awareness and teamwork. People don't know what to do.

Example:
I pick up the horde flag with 2-3 helpers, head back to the homebase.
EFC does the same.
As I approach my tunnel, I see efc.
I ping on the map and reveal EFC's location to my team members (seems they were really busy somehow, with something, anything but defending our flag).
As a result, all of my own support starts chasing the EFC and I stand there alone. Tank up for 45 seconds with Lifegiving Gem, Shield Wall, and still die because zero support. It follows that 9 Alliance must've been chasing EFC. But no, we don't get our own flag back.

It's a pita and the reason why I don't pug as often.
 
It has nothing to do with specific classes or comps, just general mindset of both factions.

5 out of 10 people in Alliance PuG make their peace with a loss even before they open scoreboard to see who they're up against. They just wander around mindlessly or AFK, doing absolutely nothing to win the game so it can end as soon as possible. Those people are either some mongs like fresh dinged ret paladins who think they are warriors with self-freedom and that healing is bannable if you aren't holly, 2k hp fire mages who don't realize they could atleast peel decently as frost if they already can't be good killers etc., or they are PvE heros. They join battlegrounds just to get their rank and gear as an achievement or for PvE purposes and never queue again. They cba trying hard when it's needed cuz they don't even like PvP in the first place and just wanna get done with their grind as soon as possible and with as little as possible effort invested.

2-3 out of 10 people think that scoreboard stats are indicator of skill. They ignore all game objectives completely in favor of killing random people passing by in middle for the duration of whole battleground, miles away from both FC or EFC.. That's already 7-8 people who don't think or care about winning at all which results in no reports, no support, no anything.

That leaves 2-3 players who try to win, but that usually isn't enough. Maybe only if 1 of them is sick FC who can kite around the base for awhile and another one is a good rogue or something that can nuke EFC very efficiently, but even then it rarely ends with a success. Ofc, this is just usual situation, sometimes there is more people who try to win then just 2-3.

On the other hand, Horde PuG players always try to win and everyone seems to do stuff in favor of getting game objective done, no matter if it's some geared player or someone who just hit 60 and queued with level 35 greens.

This is not Kronos-only situation, it's like this on any server. I played Vanilla as Horde for the last couple of years before joining this server and PuG v PuG was usually very boring cuz Alliance rarely even tried.. Mostly, only fun games were against Alliance premades. But then again, this should not surprise anyone, Alliance was always PvE favored faction, and those who truly like PvP roll a lot more often on Horde then on Ally.
 
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This is not Kronos-only situation, it's like this on any server. I played Vanilla as Horde for the last couple of years before joining this server and PuG v PuG was usually very boring cuz Alliance rarely even tried.. Mostly, only fun games were against Alliance premades. But then again, this should not surprise anyone, Alliance was always PvE favored faction, and those who truly like PvP roll a lot more often on Horde then on Ally.

My first vanilla BG experience as possibly the worst hunter to ever enter any pvp games, was that I lost the first games quite easily (or so I remember). On the 9th game I asked the others that "why are we losing all the games, is this normal?" and the answer was "yup". Seems like nothing's changed in about 10 years.
 
Alliance pug games are often very frustrating. Lack of communication is real, typing short messages doesnt reguire skill, just feels like none cares.

Lately it feels like there is even more people who just afk in shadowmeld and swap places when someone whines about it.

Pvp scene in general also could get better if people actually tried to help others play better, ofc talking about positioning in bg chat most often doesnt yield any results.
Also "u bad get good / u all fucking suck" - wont motivate your team members to practise to get better.
 
It doesn't help that the Horde rankers dodge the alliance premades in order to face the alliance pugs. You can call them the "dodgemade".
 
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