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PVP Suggestions and Discussion - August 2017

hammerlock

hammerlock

New Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2017
Hello PVP Community,


For those who don't know me, I'm a community manager, relatively new to the Kronos Team. Over the past week I've reached out to a few people asking for their input on what changes the PVP community would like to see made to improve the PVP scene. While I'm not in charge of any development work, I do believe that if the Kronos community can mostly agree upon some straight forward, easy to implement changes, that the development team would be open to making these changes.


Based on the threads that I've read and the discussions that I've had, these are the top ideas that I'd like to recommend to the development team.


1) Add a 1-2 minute grace period when you are disconnected from the game, so that you aren't removed from the BG queue / given the deserter debuff. If a BG pops while you are disconnected, then you would be removed from the queue.


2) Remove the custom feature that makes it so that you are given the deserter debuff if you drop queue or don't join a battleground. This is not as necessary as it once was, because there are less premades full of rankers attempting to dodge each other.


3) Add a small reward for turning in BG marks. Suggestions include: A small amount of gold (2g/3 marks, for example)


4) Review issues that exist with weapon and spell procs, seemingly only in PVP (Blackout, Impact, Windfury, Frostbite, BRE, Untamed Blade, etc.). If anyone can actually provide some more details on what issues the believe exist with the proc rates, that would make it easier to bring to the devs. If there are existing issues on the bug tracker that is even better.


I'm looking for feedback from all of you in an organized manner to determine which of these changes make the most sense to present to the development team. If you have other suggestions that are likely easy to implement and do not appear to be dramatically customized features, please share them here.
 
I support everything except suggestion 2.

Additionally, i think there should be more monitoring of people popping games with alts.
 
1) Grace period
Yeh, if this can be done by all means. No downsides.

2) Removing deserter on dropping queue on pop
Only under the condition that you're willing to re-instate this on quick notice if necessary. And I'm kinda serious about the quick. People were asking for this functionally from very early on on Kronos and it took like 1.5 years before it was implemented. When it finally was, there was no need for it anymore on K1 and when it was asked to be removed on K1 there was no response either. It did serve its purpose finally when the servers were merged for a bit but I do agree that there is not much use for it anymore. That said if it turns out with people dodging all the time / ghost games against semi premades etc then it should just be reinstated (even though it's annoying). And not in 6 months this time x)

3) Money for marks
Yeh

4) Procrate
I mean it's kinda hard to pin down, I think people just generally experience that the procrate of items and rng skills seems to high to the point where it's something you can rely on rather than a rarity that is nice when it happens. But if testing it against a dummy results in a procrate that corresponds with the intended blizzlike procrate then yeh idk. It does feel pretty dumb sometimes atm.

Just wanna shortly extrapolate on what i said in point 2. It's nice that you're willing to do these things but it honestly might be too little too late which is really the story when it comes to how the pvp scene has been treated on this server. But anything better than nothing i guess.
 
Pretty sure it uses some wonky psuedo rng similar to what was introduced in tbc. Seems like you're much more likely to proc things after first engaging an enemy player than in a drawn out team fight where you tunnel a target. Ask any horde what the proc rate of wind fury feels like in a battleground vs a raid boss
 
Relada said:
Midair reflectors with naxx release.
Fix melee leeway.
Fix charge.
Click to expand...

I'm sure you've explained these all many times in many threads, but if there aren't issues open on the issue tracker, there is very little hope of the problems being addressed. If issues are open, please link them here.
 
I believe that rewarding random consumables and trade goods limited to a certain pool of resources (so no black lotus, arcane bombs, arcanite etc) rather than pure money from the battleground marks would be a better option.
 
Topmong said:
I believe that rewarding random consumables and trade goods limited to a certain pool of resources (so no black lotus, arcane bombs, arcanite etc) rather than pure money from the battleground marks would be a better option.
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I did mention this to one of the staff members who I spoke to, and their response was :

1) Items like grenades, healing droughts, etc. are not nearly as useful to the "general community" who may not be engineers or who have not been long time PVP players. By offering gold it may entice some new people to start PVPing, knowing that they can supplement the cost of PVP and the opportunity cost of lost farming time, with a small amount of gold.

I think this type of reward would need to be monitored rather closely to ensure it's not introducing an overwhelming amount of gold into the economy.


From my own perspective:

2) It's probably easier to add a standard gold reward than create a custom reward object with prizes inside.
 
2) Remove the custom feature that makes it so that you are given the deserter debuff if you drop queue or don't join a battleground. This is not as necessary as it once was, because there are less premades full of rankers attempting to dodge each other.
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Only under the condition that you're willing to re-instate this on quick notice if necessary.
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Never thought of this functionality as useful, since the problem isn't the mechanics. However, a simple on/off flag should be fine here, I guess, if it is not to be completely removed.


3) Add a small reward for turning in BG marks. Suggestions include: A small amount of gold (2g/3 marks, for example)
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I believe that rewarding random consumables and trade goods limited to a certain pool of resources (so no black lotus, arcane bombs, arcanite etc) rather than pure money from the battleground marks would be a better option.
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This is one of suggestions that might eventually kill Kronos because it will no longer be 'blizzlke'. You do not fight for money in PvP, you fight for honorific awards and titles. There is no need at all to implement anything like this.

Whoever wants to PvP (and there are already more than enough awards for it) should do so because they want to. Whoever wants gold should go and gain gold (professions, loot, etc.).

Midair reflectors with naxx release.
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Dependent on good connection and reactions of the player instead of thinking ahead on what skills to use based on what you see. No good.


As for the Legion link, I'll say that it's a fine idea, but should be kept in Legion.


As for general PvP problems: most importantly, fix Alterac Valley quests. AV was introduced long before a lot of raids or dungeons, and yet for some reason it still has not been addressed to. Officials speak of Naxxramas and possible expansion, while critical PvP battlegroup mechanics do not work at all. No good can come of this. It should have been fixed long ago before a lot of PvM changes.


As for the custom changes: first of all, I would rather have no custom changes in game at all. So what I suggest is:
- make full list of custom changes that are already made or are planned to be made;
- make a research on each point and see if the change is necessary; change it if it's not.

In particular, I would gladly see 50g respec cost in game. People pick their roles when they start playing. They should not be able to just switch it whenever they want, and high respec cost is what could at least sometimes enforce people to think twice.


Also, regarding custom changes, since there are custom changes on the server, I would offer some, too:
- make paladins' Exorcism spell workable on the Undead players;
- make druids' Hibernate spell workable on Tauren players;
- (harsh one, but since there's a subject on changes, I'd offer) one character per account, one account per person; alternatively, no characters on different factions per person.

Spells suggestions seem as logical as custom LoS, so why not?

For those who don't know me, I'm a community manager, relatively new to the Kronos Team.
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They should change your forum title from 'Registered User' to something else and colourise it.
 
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Vanilla PvP is not for me, but...


1) ok
2) I think it is not good idea. Deserter is bad, but has good reason here on Kronos. Does not matter how many premades are playing now, it is because of them. Remove WSG from weekly PvP events and do only nonstop AV, AB. WSG will still pop up...
3) ok
4) yes, recheck procrates
 
Agree with all.

Ye suggestion #2 is outdated, right now it's more annoying then useful so it would be nice to get rid of it, but as Sachi said only if it wouldn't be too much of a hustle to implement it back again if needed.

About procs: It's really hard to post some concrete evidence regarding this problem, staff needs to play the game and PvP to realize what's up. I was hitting target dummies for hours and tracking procs in the meantime on multiple classes, it comes down to normal values when you hit a target continuously for a longer period of time. But in PvP, where fights are short, as Edhris said, it feels like procs have some charger that burst down 2-3-4 procs really fast and refills itself every time you pick a new fight. I, as a hunter, feel that I have like 50% proc on Improved Concussive in PvP, while when I was hitting a Target Dummy for a long time, it wasn't even 20% as it should be. As Sachi said, people are aware of this and it became something they rely and base their gameplay on, rather then feel lucky when it happens. I know a good warrior who has BRE but didn't wanna use it over fucking The Unstoppable Force because he stunlock people with 3 back to back mace procs of the charge and just kill people unable to do anything. That's really absurd if you ask me.

Leeway - good suggestion, getting hit by melee and dazed from 10 yards away is no fun. It felt a bit better last days though, maybe they changed something?

If possible add also separate queue for Premade games when 2 teams want to queue into each other. More competitive games is what Kronos PvP needs the most right now and I'm sure that would be boosted up if people knew they gonna get instant premade games pop, and not chase each other for 2 hours farming pugs, while half people get bored of it and quit in the mean time, before the actual game happens. Ofc, still keep it possible to premade into normal queue, so everyone who gets hard on farming pugs with premade or needs honor can still do that.
 
Also, regarding to what Topmong wrote. I, as someone who basically just plays BGs, couldn't agree more. I don't need anything but Grenades, Swiftness potions and R6 mana/health potions. But looking at the bigger picture, it wouldn't bring in anyone else besides people who PvP already. With pure money there's at least a chance that an average PvE hero might queue up few games to get money for his Elixir of the Mongoose or w/e rather then run in circle and farm herbs for 2 hours.
 
It would also be possible to have separate mark turn ins, one for direct honor and one for gold or items. That way it isn't double dipping rewarding people who want honor with items or gold as well.


Edit: It's also right in front of everyone's eyes about the proc system. Why was deoi specifically nerfed? I'm sure they implemented the item with the same proc formula use by twin emps sword, utb, bre, etc. It was specifically nerfed because that specific proc is so powerful. NOT HARD TO SEE GUYS. I'm sure they directly took the proc rate from comments on wowhead, so that isn't the issue. It's some weird custom feature that Chero must have implemented.
 
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What about the imbalance between horde and alliance atm? Horde win almost every game and the Qs are 20mins +. What about some sort of bonus for Qing alliance until win ratio and Q times balance out or something?
 
hammerlock said:
I did mention this to one of the staff members who I spoke to, and their response was :

1) Items like grenades, healing droughts, etc. are not nearly as useful to the "general community" who may not be engineers or who have not been long time PVP players. By offering gold it may entice some new people to start PVPing, knowing that they can supplement the cost of PVP and the opportunity cost of lost farming time, with a small amount of gold.
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Yeah well, people could sell the goods they don't need on AH. And I think you could include in some goods that people use for their pve consumables rather than just pvp items, like dreamfoil, elemental earth/fire and so on. I think Ayz wrote a suggestion about it some time last year.
 
neomaximus003 said:
What about the imbalance between horde and alliance atm? Horde win almost every game and the Qs are 20mins +. What about some sort of bonus for Qing alliance until win ratio and Q times balance out or something?
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Yeah, the fix for this is to ban mongs that play retribution paladin in battlegrounds. Cough Retherz & Timmy cough
 
hammerlock said:
...

4) Review issues that exist with weapon and spell procs, seemingly only in PVP (Blackout, Impact, Windfury, Frostbite, BRE, Untamed Blade, etc.). If anyone can actually provide some more details on what issues the believe exist with the proc rates, that would make it easier to bring to the devs. If there are existing issues on the bug tracker that is even better.
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A good place for this and the only place devs will really take a serious look at is the bugtracker. Ofc we expect some sources for any claims made. Testers will appreciate the sources aswell to identify or confirm the issues.

(vanillagaming is not a valid source in 99% of cases)
 
Panthea said:
Yeah, the fix for this is to ban mongs that play retribution paladin in battlegrounds. Cough Retherz & Timmy cough
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Yet Retherz plays paladin a lot better than you play shadowpriest.

I think the bigger issue is in the alliance players altogether, and the generic mindset of people giving up and arguing rather than playing for the the objectives. I know I'd much rather have a paladin that will at least HoJ the efc rather than a t2.5 rogue/warrior that doesn't leave stealth or midfield and afks half the game. Suppose the few legit players left on the faction keep getting bored of the situation and quitting, too.

This problem is entirely in the mindset of the faction, most of the games I've played the past few weeks would have been completely winnable no matter the ret paladins, people just have given up before the gate even rises.
 
NotSachi said:
how come devs never need to give sources for the initial values they gave?
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The most likely scenario is that they use default values from whatever core they're working with, and make adjustments based on evidence provided. If there is no value, then a default PPM rate exists in the core code to ensure that there is at least some proc occurring. It seems kind of silly to ask the devs to dedicate their time to providing evidence of why something exists the way it does today, instead of the community providing evidence saying "it should be this way".
 
Topmong said:
Yet Retherz plays paladin a lot better than you play shadowpriest.

I think the bigger issue is in the alliance players altogether, and the generic mindset of people giving up and arguing rather than playing for the the objectives. I know I'd much rather have a paladin that will at least HoJ the efc rather than a t2.5 rogue/warrior that doesn't leave stealth or midfield and afks half the game. Suppose the few legit players left on the faction keep getting bored of the situation and quitting, too.

This problem is entirely in the mindset of the faction, most of the games I've played the past few weeks would have been completely winnable no matter the ret paladins, people just have given up before the gate even rises.
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There's a noticeable different in warriors who Q. Every game has a few horde warriors and shaman WFing the shit out of alliance. Meanwhile alliance are lucky to get 1 warrior per game.
 
@Sachi
What hammerlock said and a few more reasons.
Once you have been a dev for a project like Kronos you will understand.
 
How do you expect us to test something so specific? There's so many parameters in pvp, can Chero just give up his proc system info?
 
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