PVP Suggestions and Discussion - August 2017

[NotSachi]

Right.

Personally I do not think it is silly at all for devs to have to argument the values they give to something. Frankly it perplexes me a bit that it is handled this way. I guess I was assuming devs did their research or at least double check information. However since it is like this it does create a bit of an unfair balance here putting all burden of evidence on the community of such an integral part of the game. It feels as if there is a mentality that "whatever the devs coded, must be right", even though you just confessed that they too make use of essentially baseless data. Though it does explain why weapons like Ironfoe and DEOI initially had such absurd procrates. And considering those 2 cases, is it really that much of a stretch to consider that something might be fundamentally wrong with procs all across the board?

I'm not trying to bounce the ball back here, but Cadingel basically just put the ball in our camp, I'd rather this be some collaborative effort in stead of "u guys provide the evidence, we'll fix it lol (if the evidence is good enough even tho we don't have our own lol"

 

[Smoker]

Leeway is never going to be perfect. The moment the europeans are no longer hitting each other from 10 yards away, that is the moment the americans can't hit targets they stand on top of. I think the most recent adjustment to melee leeway (7 days ago) was a good one, and the only thing left to do on that subject is to fix the now apparent difference in range of melee abilities and auto-attack. A video of this was given in this report: https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?issue=10659#comments:id=39695

 

[Sarei]

A good place for this and the only place devs will really take a serious look at is the bugtracker. Ofc we expect some sources for any claims made. Testers will appreciate the sources aswell to identify or confirm the issues.

(vanillagaming is not a valid source in 99% of cases)

Idk about sources but on no other private server or retail, but Kronos, I was getting stunlocked by warriors and shadowpriests and stuck in 7 frosbites as a melee in a single fight in 99% of cases.

Also, I'm not really sure what kind of source we should post here? If you could give us some guidance what to look for please?
It's already said that numbers don't add up when you test it on target dummies, it's something about having instant few procs when you enter a new fight and then it gets normalized as the time pass by. In PvE it doesn't matter since you get normal numbers at the end since you hit continuously, but it's obviously flawed in PvP when you get weapon proc (DEOI, BRE, UTB etc.) instantly of every charge, 3 mace stuns in 7 seconds or 5 frostbites in 20. So pls, could we know what to look for exactly?

 

[hammerlock]

Right.

Personally I do not think it is silly at all for devs to have to argument the values they give to something. Frankly it perplexes me a bit that it is handled this way. I guess I was assuming devs did their research or at least double check information. However since it is like this it does create a bit of an unfair balance here putting all burden of evidence on the community of such an integral part of the game. It feels as if there is a mentality that "whatever the devs coded, must be right", even though you just confessed that they too make use of essentially baseless data. Though it does explain why weapons like Ironfoe and DEOI initially had such absurd procrates. And considering those 2 cases, is it really that much of a stretch to consider that something might be fundamentally wrong with procs all across the board?

I'm not trying to bounce the ball back here, but Cadingel basically just put the ball in our camp, I'd rather this be some collaborative effort in stead of "u guys provide the evidence, we'll fix it lol (if the evidence is good enough even tho we don't have our own lol"

Speaking as someone who is not a developer, but as someone who did download elyisum's code and sifted through it... I understand a little bit of what I read.. There are basically two major components to the code. Core code mostly written in C++ which controls the flow of the game, using values pulled from a database that contains hundreds of tables. One table specifically is called "item_template" which contains many different values and variables for every item that exists in the game. For mangos you can find documentation here : http://mangoszero-docs.readthedocs.io/en/latest/database/world/item-template.html

Here's a screenshot from the Elysium database. I'm only using this as a reference because it's what I have available. The values may differe between servers, but the concept is the same.

You can see that DEOI has a spell ID of 26108 : https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/index.php?spell=26108 (Glimpse of Madness)

You can see that it has a Spell Trigger of 2, which according to the documentation means it procs on a "chance to hit"

And you can see that it has a spellPpmRate of 0. According to this table DEOI has a 0% PPM rate.

Since we know that's wrong, and the game knows that's wrong, it has a built in default formula that calculates the PPM based on the weapon attack speed. I don't have the exact formula but I believe it works out to something like a 4-8% PPM.

Kronos very likely has similar code in place.


I have not personally tested the whole "weapons seem to have a higher chance to proc against targets with full health" theory, but when talking about default proc rates, you should be able to mostly rely on the example above. Unless a developer wants to correct me.

 

[Topmong]

As an EU warrior the leeway certainly feels more fair currently, going both ways. I think the player placement system might still be a bit messed up by the delay system Kronos uses (an EU rogue friend of mine reported that he consistently had easier time gouging blinks and gouging people who tried to turn from it while still having a hard time judging the player's exact location for aoe spells and deadzoning)

Trying to fix this issue on private servers has often resulted in more harm than good from what I've seen, as WoW simply wasn't created as a game you could play cross-continent without hindering the quality for both sides of players.

 

[NotSachi]

yeh i know fuck all about coding so that's as far as i go
maybe one day i'll go through 500 hours of vanilla footage and note frostbite/imp concussive etc procs and then spend 500 hours comparing them to kronos data

one day

 

[hammerlock]

Hopefully my explanation makes sense. For what it's worth I don't ever PVP but in an effort to help validate some of the claims being made here, I'm giving it a shot. I just did a WSG with BRE equipped and I don't think I saw a single proc in 2 flag captures (alliance won, waddup). I also feel like the melee leeway is completely fine, as a west coast USA player with ~180 ms at all times. I'll try to play a bit more often so that I can be more than a mediator for this discussion and provide some valuable input.

 

[Spazztastic]

Thanks for giving US west coast some love, Hammerlock

Haven't played bg's since last AB weekend, couldn't sap a fool standing on his graphic

I'll give it another round soon enough

 

[RedWinston]

there are a few issues that i'm experiencing atm as rogue wich are

1: somtimes when you use blind your target seems to fly accros the map or just dissapear making it almost impossible to figure out where he/she is and caused me to die quite alot in tense situations.
this also happends with mind control cap wich basicly waists a 30 minute cd while also beeing a + point for your opponent because no one of our team can prepare to attack the mc'ed one (especially annoying in wsg flagcarriers)

2: staying in combat because of some totem on the other side of the map that for some reason stays there.. i've had several times where i was stuck in combat for up to 2 minutes wich isnt really pleasant as a rogue.

3: vanish seems a bit broken since quite alot of times a hunter just auto shooting at you will result in you popping straight out of stealth.

4: the leeway mechanic: although its been better for eu vs eu players. but whenever i play during the evening again na players it feels like i'm just never able to sap/stun anyone as they're Always out of range wich makes me have to find their correct location for some reason but because of that you have a higher chance to be seen wich kind of screw up rogues the most.. especially against mages since your position of opening against them is what makes you able to kill them easaly.

and please remove retribution spec (and protection aswell since some paladin loves queing up all day with that abomination of a spec)from the game! every bg we end up with a bunch of ret paladins that for some messed up reason (most simple class) still backpeddle,keyboard turn and click all the way through.. some of them are queuing up 24/7 to get r14. if you want a more healthy pvp situation than please remove these guys from the server since a bunch of good Alliance pvpers feel like quitting the moment they see those paladins in their team... (just venting my frustrations about these guys :d)

 

[hamtejsn]

I got that in my mind for a long time now: Id like to implement the arena system from TBC prepatch. 2o2 3o3 5o5 maybe 1on1 and and this wargames feature from retail aswell. No ranks n shit just some simple killing action (not sure if one should gain kill honor for this)U can play this while ur qued for BGS. I guess vanilla arena is a pretty uniq thing. Back in the days when TBC prepatch hit there were already some bonus abilitys added but basicly it was vanilla arena. And i tell u guys IT WAS FANTASTIC.

 

[Sarei]

1: somtimes when you use blind your target seems to fly accros the map or just dissapear making it almost impossible to figure out where he/she is and caused me to die quite alot in tense situations.
this also happends with mind control cap wich basicly waists a 30 minute cd while also beeing a + point for your opponent because no one of our team can prepare to attack the mc'ed one (especially annoying in wsg flagcarriers)

This happens with like every Scatter Shot as well. The target just runs in one direction on your screen as if he's lagging out for the duration of the effect, while he's actually somewhere around you. Really annoying since Scatter-FD-trap is like basis of hunter gameplay and half Scatter shots you don't have a clue where the fuck your target actually is until the effect is over and it just spawns somewhere around, which results in missed traps.

I've seen this problem on every server though and it was the same for some other spells, like priest and warrior fears. Not sure if those classes have the same issue here.

 

[Kamchak]

I got that in my mind for a long time now: Id like to implement the arena system from TBC prepatch. 2o2 3o3 5o5 maybe 1on1...

Gurubashi Arena in Stranglethorn Vale serves that purpose.

 

[Smoker]

Suggestion: Whenever the gurubashi chest spawn, give a battleground-like popup to all players who are in a battleground queue. Upon accepting the pop, teleport that player to the center of gurubashi arena.

 

[hammerlock]

I got that in my mind for a long time now: Id like to implement the arena system from TBC prepatch. 2o2 3o3 5o5 maybe 1on1 and and this wargames feature from retail aswell. No ranks n shit just some simple killing action (not sure if one should gain kill honor for this)U can play this while ur qued for BGS. I guess vanilla arena is a pretty uniq thing. Back in the days when TBC prepatch hit there were already some bonus abilitys added but basicly it was vanilla arena. And i tell u guys IT WAS FANTASTIC.

Suggestion: Whenever the gurubashi chest spawn, give a battleground-like popup to all players who are in a battleground queue. Upon accepting the pop, teleport that player to the center of gurubashi arena.

For reference, these are the types of highly customized changes I was referencing that are unlikely to be implemented.

 

[hamtejsn]

This happens with like every Scatter Shot as well. The target just runs in one direction on your screen as if he's lagging out for the duration of the effect, while he's actually somewhere around you. Really annoying since Scatter-FD-trap is like basis of hunter gameplay and half Scatter shots you don't have a clue where the fuck your target actually is until the effect is over and it just spawns somewhere around, which results in missed traps.

I've seen this problem on every server though and it was the same for some other spells, like priest and warrior fears. Not sure if those classes have the same issue here.

Also happend in retail dunno if they fixed it in one oft the latest expansions. Also the player model might not be displayed in the same spot for different players. Offen saw that on LAN Partys. On the screen of my neighbour i might be displayed like 1 meter away from the spot my screen showed, even if standing still for a long time. I think its the weird netcode and maybe could be fixed but im pretty sure that would cost alot more bw for the Server. Another example is rushing ab flags when the bg starts: everybody is first/fastest in his own screen. Id donate limbs if that would be fixed [emoji178]

 

[dms]

Really glad to finally see an input from the team regarding the community management and the pvp community specifically. If it would have been at this level 1.5 years ago kronos would most likely be experiencing ques or the servers would not have been merged.

Absolutely the biggest problem that everybody seems to agree upon is incentivising players to que more for bgs. Having 1 wsg up most of the time with 20+ que for horde is definitely turning people off.

Implementing gold/consumes/mats feels like the most efficient fix. There's obviously the concern of it ruining the economy if too much gold is awarded. I feel that the best solution would be some kind of a mix of being awarded a random combination of gold/goods, enough to encourage people to que more while waiting for dmf cd, but not too much so that if you want enough consumes for raids / gold for epic mount one would still need to grind/use the AH.

Fixing procs/on air reflect would be awesome but at this point of the server timeline and development the best thing would probably be to just live with them and accept how it is (regards, blizzard/aoe frostbite spamming mage)

What topmong and ayz said about leeway I agree on.

Pls make changes soon before naxx kk ))

Also you can see a nice microcosm of kronos population here some pvpers some pvers and 1 crazy ass paladin first wanting more blizzlike and in the same post suggesting taurens can be hibernated. Following this logic I think orcs should be immune to fear and undead without eyes or mouth immune to silence and gouge.

 

[Horo]

There's a noticeable different in warriors who Q. Every game has a few horde warriors and shaman WFing the shit out of alliance. Meanwhile alliance are lucky to get 1 warrior per game.

That's just straight up bs. Every time I queued the last couple months there always were 3-5 warriors in my WSG group. Not much of a sample size but if I queue 3 different evenings and see the same scenario every time, I won't be queuing because alliance literally doesn't need me (warrior).

 

[Lildyo]

What about the imbalance between horde and alliance atm? Horde win almost every game and the Qs are 20mins +. What about some sort of bonus for Qing alliance until win ratio and Q times balance out or something?

that's okay AV will be back in 2 days and horde can go back to losing 99% of all games without so much as capping a single bunker :>

 

[voidzone]

Nid feenix daily style quest like 'turn in 3 AB marks for 1 feenix shard' and 5 shards can buy you 10/20 plaguebloom 5 days later (with flasks, feenix went too far). Dungeons and battlegrounds were so alive when they had their christmas daily quest event back then.

 

[Eywin]

Vanjuard premade cucking over judgement ranker premade, neva forget!

 

[Topmong]

And both losing to GLOBOGYM PURPLE COBRAS in l20 greens

 

[Oidd]

some suggestions:

a) remove the no_BG_weekend. Let it be Warsong->Arathi->Alterac->Warsong.... without the empty week (currently that basically means 2 straight weeks of Warsong)

b) give a good reason for people that don't usually play BGs to actually play a bit in the form of
-some gold per marks, e.g. 1-2g per 3 marks (preferably for all 3 battlegrounds)
-some basic random items, e.g. scrolls, potions

c) provide those seeking premade vs premade pvp a more straight-forward environment. (you would be surpised how strong and what potential that community has towards the health of the server pvp)
- remove the anti-afk_anti-ghost custom fix (that is no longer much needed anyway). It is a nightmare trying to arrange premade vs premade games at the moment
- examine the possibility of separate queues for 10man groups (though that can probably be abused so it requires extra consideration)

d) give a good reason for people to rank
- mounts (like the ones in the shop) awarded at R10 R11 R12 R13 R14 (in addition to the pvp mounts)
- now that we are in AQ40 (for months) and naxx is coming soon, pvp gear is not really that much good (with few exceptions) so it wouldnt matter much to either a) buff the pvp gear b) make ranking easier (we can think of ways to do that without oversimplifying it)

e) examine the possibility of fixing the 2 most annoying issues i.e. a) getting stuck in combat b) weapon/abilities proc system

 

[Enthralol]

a) remove the no_BG_weekend. Let it be Warsong->Arathi->Alterac->Warsong.... without the empty week (currently that basically means 2 straight weeks of Warsong)

I just want to be that guy and correct you that it's actually AV => WSG => AB => Nothing, so with the empty week instead being another wsg week would be every other week as warsong instead of two in a row like you wrote.

 

[Smoker]

Might aswell remove both the empty and the wsg weekend. You would have wsg on weekdays and on weekend rotate between AB and AV

 

[nimeralos]

Might aswell remove both the empty and the wsg weekend. You would have wsg on weekdays and on weekend rotate between AB and AV

A possible issue would be WSG not giving much rankpoints if you grinded AB/AV enough on the weekends, which could discourage people from queueing.