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    TwinStar team

PVP Suggestions and Discussion - August 2017

Big ups to Hammerlock for the continued effort, but yeah it's kinda too late now to make any moves regarding the pvp on kronos.

Big reason why kronos stands out to me as the best vanilla server even after a lot of questionable things lately and in the past, are the custom QoL changes specifically the los. If K3 happens I hope you guys stick with a community manager and actually listen to something we have to say regarding pvp issues not just bugs.

A clear communication is also needed of what level of customization is going to be implemented regarding QoL changes/sticking to blizzlike authencity.
 
Big reason why kronos stands out to me as the best vanilla server even after a lot of questionable things lately and in the past, are the custom QoL changes specifically the los. If K3 happens I hope you guys stick with a community manager and actually listen to something we have to say regarding pvp issues not just bugs.

couldn't agree more
 
Came across this and figured I`d post it here because I found it funny and it illustrates really well how obviously broken the proc system is for anyone who actually play the game, even though it's impossible to find some concrete and must-have evidence.

Basically this guy joined over yesterday, queued for a BG and this is the first thing he had to say xd, literally the same thing we're all spamming about for so long:

HriJmZ7.jpg


C88IMD8.jpg
 
the exact same thing we were discussing when we first joined the server almost 2 years ago
it literally only takes a few minutes in pvp/duel to get the feeling that something is wrong


hopefully into Kronos 3 to-do list without the need of a poor guy having to hit target 9999999999 times for "concrete evidence"
 
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the exact same thing we were discussing when we first joined the server almost 2 years ago
it literally only takes a few minutes in pvp/duel to get the feeling that something is wrong


hopefully into Kronos 3 to-do list without the need of a poor guy having to hit target 9999999999 times for "concrete evidence"

Not only just that, its literally engaging combat, disengaging, wait, repeat.

Takes a lot of time that again could be felt by simply playing the game.


T2 proccing a lot, maelstrom. the whole shebang.

I play rogue main so its beneficial to me, but this still need to be fixed to give a good impression to the pvp playerbase.


On a side note, its pretty frustrating to see so many veterans so ready to give up everything thinking all these fixes will be saved for some future kronos server, which in all rights shouldn't even be opened until naxx is thoroughly beaten to death.


Or open up a non raid instance server (ubrs endgame) for the people who wanna pvp in blues and shit idk
 
Hey all, glad to see the discussion continue even though it's not the direction everyone was hoping for. I have been pretty honest about the fact that I don't really PVP much. I have a warrior and a mage that I queued up a few games with 1-2 months ago and I didn't notice anything that felt like a broken proc rate.

My warrior didn't have a mace to use, but it sounds like you're saying that 5/5 Imp Mace Talent on a Warrior will guarantee a 100% chance to stun on the first hit to start combat, and then after that it's a static PPM. This resets when leaving/re-entering combat.

If that summary is accurate, please let me know and I'll try to test it. Opening an issue on the issue tracker explaining that would be the best thing to do though.

If there is a general complaint that "everything" procs on the first hit, then I'd disagree with that and ask for some video evidence. I didn't feel like I was getting frozen by Frostbite particularly often, my BRE didn't seem to proc overly often, etc.
 
My warrior didn't have a mace to use, but it sounds like you're saying that 5/5 Imp Mace Talent on a Warrior will guarantee a 100% chance to stun on the first hit to start combat, and then after that it's a static PPM. This resets when leaving/re-entering combat.

I tested mace spec a couple months ago. I didn't notice this behavior.
What I did notice was that one guy in the battleground claimed I bought my character just because I was using the R14 mace. lol.
 
My warrior didn't have a mace to use, but it sounds like you're saying that 5/5 Imp Mace Talent on a Warrior will guarantee a 100% chance to stun on the first hit to start combat, and then after that it's a static PPM. This resets when leaving/re-entering combat.

not 100% but definitely higher than it should be. would be awesome if you could have a look at it
 
too bad no one from the staff will ever acknowledge the problem of procs unless some1 shows up with 50 spreadsheets of verified 2006 data
 
too bad no one from the staff will ever acknowledge the problem of procs unless some1 shows up with 50 spreadsheets of verified 2006 data

Formulate the problem properly, present your proof in a way that can be easily validated, and suggest a solution.
 
It's really hard to precisely formulate this problem when it comes down to PvP to people (staff) who actually don't play the game. For PvE it's easy, you can hit a target dummy 20k times and emulate a really fucking long tank/spank fight, draw a conclusion about procs, compare it to some ancient data when some other guy also hit a target dummy 20k times and have your evidence. On the other hand, this kind of testing doesn't work for PvP. You don't hit your target constantly, but rather you pick a new fight every other minute. I did try to get some data about all kinds of procs on target dummies before, but I got normal results because proc chances even out with their normal vaules over time when you hit continuously (For example, you get 3 fast procs and then you don't get any for 2 minutes). However, in PvP fights are short and it feels that you get a new set of few fast procs every time you engage into combat and because it doesn't last long, there is no time for it to even out with it's normal value. It usually goes like this:


Get into fight, get few procs in a short period of time > leave combat > get into new fight, get few fast procs > leave combat, etc,etc.


Because of this some people on Kronos base their gameplay on procs in PvP, instead of just feeling lucky when it happens. Like, as a warrior you can count on UTB proccing straight of the charge almost every time making it better then some other weapons with higher profile, as well as BRE which stacks up so easily. Mages running around with Imp Frost Ward cause that shit reflects literally half traps, probably same thing with frostbolts. I try to interupt heals/casts with Imp Concussive if I don't need to slow anything because it procs so much and you can actually count on a pretty good chance that it's gonna do just that, interupt/stun stuff. Half of the server is playing with the silencing sword from Scholomance cause it back to back procs and silence people for the duration of literally whole fights and I never saw someone using that weapon before Kronos (I assume because the proc was very very low?). The list is endless, there's an example for all kinds of procs.


But now, how do you compile some evidence about this and compare it to procs in PvP in 2006 I don't know. That being said and considering the complicated nature of this problem, I doubt this will ever be adressed, but it doesn't feel right when you play. When we played some premade games on PTR with R10/MC gear restriction, one of better Kronos warriors played with The Unstoppable Force instead of BRE because he base his gameplay on mace stun procs and always count on them. That's pretty ridiculous if you ask me, considering how fucking unbalanced BRE is on that gear level and also evidence in itself, but ofc it doesn't matter in this context.
 
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What gets me worried is when you start mentioning abilities that have clear proc-chances, such as Blackout, Impact, Concussive Stun, and now the Frost Ward reflect talents. You know the proc-chances on these effects. You are saying that the problem is that "proc-chances seem to be higher at the start of every new fight" - and yet here we are, on page 8. Nobody seem to be bothered enough to actually set up a controlled test and share their observations.

You must admit that it is silly how NOBODY wants to actually record anything on this. We're on page 8 for christ sake. Everybody is all talk and no action. You even wrote the method down yourself Sarei:

Get into fight, get few procs in a short period of time > leave combat > get into new fight, get few fast procs > leave combat, etc,etc.

Set up a duel with someone, have a partner try to proc these effects. Do 5 frostbolts and see how many frostbite procs you get. Then get out of combat, and start over, or try with 3 players and rotate the duels after every 5 frostbolts. Do this for 10 minutes and share the video. You pick the spell - and keep it simple: test the abilities that you KNOW what the proc-chances should be.
 
And you've been stubbornly missing the point for 8 pages, as usual.

The reason nobody wants to bother making a video for you is that people have long since gotten tired of the poor way of communication from the staff regarding the pvp issues, a long history of indefinitely delayed fixes, and the fact that there's almost nobody left.

If almost everyone seems to complain about pvp issues for years and players keep quitting due to it, some alarm bells should ring. At this point you shouldn't even be talking about seeking for proof on Blizzlike values but instead aim for pleasing your bleeding playerbase by any means possible within the limits of not breaking the game too much from the original version.
 
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Bazzil is right, you just don't have a single person among you who would actually take the time to do some proper testing.

From the point of view of a developer:
- People are complaining about too high proc chances.
- You look up the proc chances, check some sources, establish that they are correct. Nothing seems out of ordinary.
- You tell players that proc chances are as they should be.
- Players complain about it "obviously not being the case and you need to listen to them".
- You wonder what the hell you are supposed to do that because the code that handles procs seems okay, proc chances are hard-coded numbers and also seem okay.
- Players come up with the myth of proc events having increased chance at the start of combat.
- You don't believe it, but who knows. MAYBE! So you tell them to test it and come back with proof that it indeed is so; Because it doesn't make sense to you and you have other things to spend time on rather than proving every crazy myth that the players come up with to be wrong.
- Players refuse to do the testing themselves and keep yelling at you instead.
- You keep telling them to come to you with serious evidence before you commit your time to it, because you are so used to players making crazy theories over the years.

And here we are on page 8.

You guys are failing to consider that you might be trapped in an echo chamber where you all yell "bugged!", just like everyone says orc stun resist has 90% proc chance since you sometimes get 3 stun resists in a row. The same way, you also get lucky procs at the start of combat sometimes. It is impossible to actually convince devs that it's an actual bug rather than just crazy RNG unless you actually bring something concrete to the table.
 
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Did you read the thread at all? Do you have any experience about pvp on Kronos other than the few people in your own echo chamber of <Vanguard> guildchat complaining about orc stun resist having 90% proc chance? No? Maybe it's not a good idea to comment since you're severely misunderstanding what's the main issue here, just like Bazzil is.
 
Any time I talk with any of you "pvpers", your one and only argument is "you and your guild don't PvP, so nothing you say is valid". I tried to explain to you what your myths sound like to people trying to lead and maintain a project such as this and who have to prioritize the issues they are solving since there aren't enough hours in a day to solve them all. But I suppose that if you don't like what I said, then you better start telling me that I and my guild don't PvP and don't understand anything. Brain washed.

I didn't concern myself with the entirety of this thread. I posted my last two comments to hopefully help describe what the issue is when you come and make claims about "broken procs on Kronos" and what you need to do if you want to do something about it.

EDIT: I actually just wasted half an hour of my life to read the whole thread from the beginning in order to keep it fair and to make sure I didn't miss something important that I need to understand what you are saying. And now that I did, I wish that I didn't because there is nothing there about what I wrote. Turns out that I got baited by the typical "You don't get us. You don't care. You don't even PvP and didn't even listen to what we said before writing here" reply I guess. Oh well.
 
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t.2.5 rogue runs around with Silent Fang instead of AQR
r10 warrior replaces zin'rokh with Earthshatter


and people dare say that there is nothing wrong with weapon procs?

you "fixed" the stupid pve maces because they proc too much (and you put up a struggle to communicate it to the community) and at the same time you refuse to think that this is probably the case for many more procc-based weapons and instead, you ask for concerete evidence for each weapon individualy...

at least, at this point, its better to stop making a fool of yourselves
 
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bazzil and erminn have a point. the only thing players have to do now is test this and post the results.

Get into fight, get few procs in a short period of time > leave combat > get into new fight, get few fast procs > leave combat, etc,etc.
 
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but tests will show that procs are working fine, they suppose to be broken only when using against you in pvp
 
It's nice that the procs are the only thing coming out of this thread. Not like there was any other suggestions.
 
i get what u are saying ermin, and ur not entirely wrong

but it's also a problem when developers do not question their own work, especially when there is a disparity between how it is meant to work and how the end user actually experiences it. it's even more so a problem when when that developer work is just as baseless as the claims against it. I feel like your experience with kazzak mace should make u understand that.
 
These are melee clips (from 26.November 2016) vs Dark Edge of Insanity (from like 3-4 AB games)
I recorded this because it felt so stupid with it procing almost EVERY melee encounter, the problem was then to go trough all the footage to try to find parts where someone (in this case Insecc) is hitting me with Dark Edge of Insanity, I went through the footage a second time and noticed that I had missed some encounters, so I made an additional video with the ones I missed.

[video=youtube;L5cOtjESW1U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5cOtjESW1U[/video]
[video=youtube;gIttZ-uOnzs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIttZ-uOnzs[/video]

If you change so the weapon procs only can work on auto attack swings I think it will make it less ridiculous.

 
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Like that's the thing, you have nerfed some of the weapons because they proc too much, I think netherwind 8/8 was nerfed a bit in the past too. Cant you see there's a problem with the system as a whole instead of single items/spells?

You need to cure the disease not treat the symptoms. I've been thinking very seriously of trying to record multiple hours of pvp footage with stopwatch rolling to see what it's like, but the general attitude towards this issue and any other pvp related suggestion has just been getting ignored or downplayed to the point that I don't think there's a point in putting that much effort.
 
I can't see there's a problem with the system as a whole, no. It may be the case that some weapons do not have proper proc-chances. Silent Fang was recently nerfed for example and there are more weapons that could need more research to get the chances better (i suppose - thats what you keep telling me after all).

But no, i don't think theres anything "wrong" with the proc-chances of the class abilities. I believe they work as intended.

I asked for one simple test. Nothing fancy at all, and no need to record for hours. Just 10 minutes of uninterrupted video of duels trying to proc various basic talent procs and leaving combat repeatedly/restarting the fights. Show me theres anything to take serious here. Please.
 
Thanks for the reply. I understand that everything seems to be working as intented but the fact that so many ppl are reporting the issue should ring some alarm bells?

A few ppl just joined or started playing and they noticed the difference immediately as shown in previous posts. What's difficult about the problem is that it's mostly a subjective experience and many just feel that something's off. But then again if we all experience the same subjective experience shouldnt it be called reality.

I'll try to get some footage and post it on the bugtracker.
 
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