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    TwinStar team

Remove world buffs and fix the economy.

Retherz

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Aug 1, 2017
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24
#1
After reading https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?issue=10408 regarding Rallying Cry of the Dragonslayer and the backlash in the report I felt the need to write these suggestions.

Fixing this report would make it easy to grief the world buff, force guilds and players to get the buff at specific times (hoping they are not griefed, by intention or not) up to a limit of 4 different times a day. But leaving it as it is is no better as it has been underlined in the report there are fundamental problems derived from world buffs.


It makes the game easier as long as you have the buffs and it changes your playstyle considering how much you value the buffs. It greatly increases the gap between geared and ungeared, high end classes/specs vs low end. It also makes the game itself look bad considering you can do DPS in vanilla comparable to TBC. Ontop of this it also makes certain proc weapons extremely strong since you have much higher crit and AP values thanks to world buffs (and consumables).

The ridiculous power of the world buffs makes the raiding unblizzlike in a sense that everyone does it. Vanilla was clearly not designed assuming everyone would have world buffs at all times during raids, as we can see by ignoring mechanics thanks to DPS. This also decreases the enjoyment for healers, for example mana efficiency becomes almost completely meaningless with how fast fights can be with world buffs, consumables also become completely unimportant for healers.


My suggestion, if you do change rallying cry, is that you remove world buffs completely, at least in raids. Not only would this reduce raid logging but it would make the experience more blizzlike in many ways, mainly in difficulty and values. Especially now that summon alts were banned, which were just a result of the problem which is world buffs.


Now to the economy.

I have previously talked a lot about 5g respecs, but fixing the respec cost along with world buffs changes would have a much greater effect. Not only could it be good for the economy but it would also increase the difficulty of raids assuming not everyone is respeccing, it would also increase the value hybrids bring to raids even if they are not healing.

However changing this gold sink would have little effect on the economy unless the extremely common ways of generating gold are fixed (mainly DM N and DM E farming). Combined the low respec cost and easy gold farm result in certain classes having a huge advantage in a gold income but also damaging the economy as a whole with the way gold is added to the economy.
 

Pengalo

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May 22, 2015
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10
#2
just realised in BWL again how good raiding is without world buffs.

what speaks for not removing them completly from raids? i think most people would enjoy raiding without buffs. i did so in naxx.
 

Retherz

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Aug 1, 2017
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#3
just realised in BWL again how good raiding is without world buffs.

what speaks for not removing them completly from raids? i think most people would enjoy raiding without buffs. i did so in naxx.
Generally it is that people are against having smaller integers on their screen. Tryhard guilds use them to tryhard, casual guilds do it to lower the risk of wipes. People have to spend ~1 hour getting buffs, (unless you are summoned acrossed the world, which was made more inconvenient with the multibox ban).

The downside is that Vanguard can't compete with Nostalrius/Elysium/Feenix/Method or whatever the fuck they are trying to do. Another thing would be increased importance of consumables, however it is already as large if you are trying to be on equal level to others.

The pros of this would be that you are no longer forced to raid log for something like songflower, DMF, seasonal buffs. You will also be able to compete with records at anytime, not just when for example scourge invasion is going on or midsummer. People will actually spend more time doing the actual raids than preparing their characters with buffs, and I do think most people enjoy mashing buttons with friends & guild over talking to NPCs and hoping for good RNG with buffs or that a songflower is up and no one there to dispel you.
 
Joined
Oct 1, 2018
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#4
oh no i only got 3% dmf buff, i can't log tonight, well i guess my weeks worth of preparing is gone to waste, oh well

I completely agree with this, world buffs make it so you can just zerg every boss and not having to pay any attention to mechanics, lowers the skill cap of players and makes it more unfair to those who acctually try to do the rotation correctly and not having to just mash two buttons and hope for good rng.
 

Pengalo

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Joined
May 22, 2015
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10
#5
i feel like the opening post describes all the issues with world buffs very well.

for me personally world buffs just bring so much potential for frustration.

i think the 4 week rule is a good idea, but have devs considered removing them completly? you did so for naxx. what are the arguments against? is cross server comparison of 1 guild really the answer?
 

Topmong

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Joined
Apr 11, 2016
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181
Location
Finland
#6
Cross-server comparison isn't even valid in the first place, and nobody that plays on the other servers cares about any time done on Kronos.
 

eljay

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Joined
May 25, 2015
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47
#7
World buffs is only not liked by us losers that have been playing/raiding vanilla for so long. For people that first get to exp. world buffs they really enjoy it and what not. Also people actually enjoy that in vanilla you can push through mechanics as I have been told it is only expansion you can do this in. If you do not want world buffs etc. then vanilla is not the exp. for you.
 

Rockmaster

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Dec 25, 2014
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170
#8
World buffs is only not liked by us losers that have been playing/raiding vanilla for so long. For people that first get to exp. world buffs they really enjoy it and what not. Also people actually enjoy that in vanilla you can push through mechanics as I have been told it is only expansion you can do this in. If you do not want world buffs etc. then vanilla is not the exp. for you.
Exactly. Also, noone forces your guild to use world buffs. If world buffs make your run lets say 20 minutes faster, but you need 1hour + to get them all, where is the point?
 

Pengalo

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Joined
May 22, 2015
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10
#9
„for people that first get to exp. world buffs they really enjoy it and what not.“

sounds like a scientific argument. id like to see these players come in and comment on the topic because i can not imagine anything more toxic than pushing to kill a new boss and losing world buffs on the first try.
these players still get to enjoy world buffs in 5mans if they want.

correct - no one forces anyone to use world buffs. why not fix ony head then?
 

Lenni

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Joined
Nov 1, 2015
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60
#10
worldbuffs should be a secret like they was in old good vanilla. only those who like explore random mob dialogs should be able to obtain them.

Please add worldbuffs to some random low lvl dungeon objects (aka some book in SM library or some random skeleton in RFD bone pile )
 

Rockmaster

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Joined
Dec 25, 2014
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170
#11
worldbuffs should be a secret like they was in old good vanilla. only those who like explore random mob dialogs should be able to obtain them.

Please add worldbuffs to some random low lvl dungeon objects (aka some book in SM library or some random skeleton in RFD bone pile )
It will be figured out in notime. The problem is thst people are way more connected now than back in the day. Discord and forums are used way more ppl than back in the days. I played vanilla retail since patch 1.6 but hardly ever used the forums...
 

Topmong

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Apr 11, 2016
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181
Location
Finland
#12
World buffs is only not liked by us losers that have been playing/raiding vanilla for so long. For people that first get to exp. world buffs they really enjoy it and what not. Also people actually enjoy that in vanilla you can push through mechanics as I have been told it is only expansion you can do this in. If you do not want world buffs etc. then vanilla is not the exp. for you.
Yeah, the newcomer raiders in Vanguard really seem to enjoy their first time doing vanilla content with world buffs. Sorry to humor your statement like this mate, but whenever I see the discussion brought up these days, after ONSLAUGHT is no longer around the block, it's mostly VG being adamant about wanting to keep their right to the buffs.

New players get attracted to vanilla because it's hard on a casual level. They don't understand, much less care, about the actual blizzlike difficulty, they're interested in the whole old mmo concept where you have to grind for your levels, consumables and gear, and they're also the people who make dozens of threads on every vanilla server's forum about how the content is under tuned because it's too easy and doesn't reflect the retail version where only a small percentage got to clear the content. Then there's also the group of people who complain about the lack of the mmo aspect (to which Retherz belongs to) in today's vanilla servers, which is generated by the game being largely micro-managed. Both of these factors can be slightly mended by removing wbuffs, but in the end the issue lies in the player's mindset.

You can bruteforce a plenty of content in other versions of the game as well, you just don't need worldbuffs for it. But there are more mechanical bosses and trashpullsthat you have to deal with in general, and the rotations or ability priorities are more interactive, so the effect doesn't feel as large. You can force through bosses in Vanilla without world buffs as well, so I don't really see the issue here. The glimpses I caught of Vanguard's first BWL on K3 made it seem like a freshly released tier of raid content without buffs was forced through at ease.

In reality people just like to see bigger numbers and shorter raids (as long as they're not on the organizing side), not having to control their power bars, or wish to cling to the idea that their records can be held in comparison against other servers. Generally the question developers have to ask themselves is whether they want to cater to the increasingly lazy players, or try and do what's the best for their game, and most of the time companies will want to make the playerbase happy in order to increase their income.

You've got nothing to be worried of.
 

Lenni

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Nov 1, 2015
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60
#13
It will be figured out in notime. The problem is thst people are way more connected now than back in the day. Discord and forums are used way more ppl than back in the days. I played vanilla retail since patch 1.6 but hardly ever used the forums...
but the thing will be specific to Kronos only, so only Kronos community can explore them. As a result this info still can stay secret, like black lotus spawn and prince nazjak respawn times
 

Rockmaster

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Dec 25, 2014
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170
#14
but the thing will be specific to Kronos only, so only Kronos community can explore them. As a result this info still can stay secret, like black lotus spawn and prince nazjak respawn times
True, but i can hear the “it is not blizzlike“ ppl screaming already...
 

Cr0wL0ck

New Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2014
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162
#15
respec cost would have absolutely zero effect... if you wish to affect economy then simply nerf farmability of hunters in tribute runs etc. or such that would put a dent into the massive income players have for gold. Having had multiple lvl 60s across K1, K2 & K3 i can say i would not have had a single respec over 5 gold even without the cap and yet i still raided like a madman and enjoyed pvp to the point of being exalted with all pvp factions on 2 characters...

You and your respec talk... there are people who never use respec even once and then there are some that use it 3-10 times throughout a year... rarely theres a rich guy that uses it 2-3 times weekly but they mainly have another income such as from tribute or similar where a small group or single person can kill something of high value... Economics you solve by looking at the source not by looking at a small vendor on the street corner selling a single waffle for every 100th customer that walks by telling him to increase prices next time if he is so lucky to meet that one again...

Furthermore.... sigh "not blizzlike"... really ? the change was something blizzard themselves used later on so it is blizzlike however not from the same age... but lets face it there are cases in vanilla that first got solved during tbc and vanilla was easily hackable for any cheater....

the "not blizzlike" comment is something only fools use when lacking other justification...

In response to world buffs... i agree and disagree since yes it is a burden but its a burden the guild chooses and does not have to do it... Furthermore there are guilds that depend on that buff in order to progress aside from hardcore guilds who clear raids naturally due to experience and similar crew as a server before there are guilds that first make solid progression with the assistance on world buffs and once they cleared it with assistance they steadily get better so for them i honestly think its good its added after 1 months play without...

And just to correct ya... people did use world buffs back in vanilla although less extreme than nowadays but take a look at naxx progression run from back then or similar... they where dependant on those buffs.
 
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