• Dear Guest,

    You're browsing our forum as a Guest meaning you can only see a portion of the forum in read-only mode.
    To view all forum nodes and be able to create threads/posts please register or log-in with your existing account.

    TwinStar team

Songflower!?!?!?

finnaly stupid dagger rogues and dual warrior will show real dps instead of overbuffed critsheat
 
no they will still have the flower...since tryhards will ofc still go for it to get an ez advantage
 
Well if you gladly spend 20 hours each week preparing for raids, this should be a positive change for you, since it gives you the pleasure of spending even more time preparing for raids. But ye, it seems people are simultaneously arguing how they don’t want to spend time getting prepared for raids and how much they love spending time preparing for raids.


You’d actually be more of a hardcore guild if you went out of your way to gimp yourself with regards to gear, consumables and world buffs.
 
No one gives a shit about the "difficulty" of vanilla raids. It's completely faceroll. What people care about is getting oranges, maybe purps(hey, atleast it's not green or white). The quality of the players on this realm has grown tremendously over time, partly due to the realm being up for 2 years. Look at for example VG firemaw from 2015 and you will understand what i mean, or Agony's first nefarian kill. I'm sure we could kill all the bosses that we currently have using only our toes with welding goggles equipped(i wouldn't be surprised if some people actually play like that). Naxx isn't going to be much more of a problem with or without buffs.

That said, i'm sure the majority of the "serious" raiders still want to use less time on raid preparations without it impacting personal performance. The thing is, for a lot of people it simply isn't enough to just kill farm bosses, you have to make the raids interesting by pushing the limits, taking risks and having farm progress. Theres always been "farm progress" where you reach new milestones like skipping mechanics/being able to "one phase" a boss etc. You gotta understand that theres people that have been clearing MC/BWL/Ony for like 2 years soon, not counting what people have played before on other private servers/retail.

If they actually released content at a decent pace there would be some merit to the raiding. I'm guessing kronos is the first "serious" raiding the majority of the playerbase has done judging by the player growth.
 
Last edited:
Would you say that the optimal solution for the majority of "serious" raiders is just to give people all possible buffs automatically when they enter a raid instance?
 
Boltzmann said:
Would you say that the optimal solution for the majority of "serious" raiders is just to give people all possible buffs automatically when they enter a raid instance?
Click to expand...

You do understand that the "raid day" starts maybe 4+ hours before the raid for a lot of people, farming shards, summoning people, clearing and kiting dm, managing dm group, setting up raid groups, choosing who gets to raid, assignments and god knows what else needs to be done. People going the extra mile might even be leeching rend buff from xxlegolasfrodoxx that randomly pops in the middle of the night, getting sand buff, blasted lands buffs. If the songflower change means we also need to camp a spawn and pre-buff it's just adding even more time wasted on getting the buffs. I can't stress it enough that there are people that have been doing this for 2 whole years now and it is becoming a chore.

If the solution is "then don't get buffs!" then you can't compete on dps. "Then remove world buffs from raids!" Then realmplayers/kronos-logs have to wipe their data/store them as legacy records. It would also be a big hit to people's sense of progression as they have been raiding with X damage for years now and then suddenly you are limited to like half the damage you were used to be doing.

The single biggest change with new songflower spawn rate is that any guild that is not as sweaty as banguard/synced is gonna loose quite a lot of raid dps because of slackers and won't be competitive anymore.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Vnm
cadex said:
You do understand that the "raid day" starts maybe 4+ hours before the raid for a lot of people, farming shards, summoning people, clearing and kiting dm, managing dm group, setting up raid groups, choosing who gets to raid, assignments and god knows what else needs to be done. People going the extra mile might even be leeching rend buff from xxlegolasfrodoxx that randomly pops in the middle of the night, getting sand buff, blasted lands buffs. If the songflower change means we also need to camp a spawn and pre-buff it's just adding even more time wasted on getting the buffs. I can't stress it enough that there are people that have been doing this for 2 whole years now and it is becoming a chore.

If the solution is "then don't get buffs!" then you can't compete on dps. "Then remove world buffs from raids!" Then realmplayers/kronos-logs have to wipe their data/store them as legacy records. It would also be a big hit to people's sense of progression as they have been raiding with X damage for years now and then suddenly you are limited to like half the damage you were used to be doing.
Click to expand...

Is this an answer to the question?
 
It's been like this for the life of the server so I don't understand focusing on it now. Seems like the devs are worried players will just blow through Naxx on day 1. If you don't want that to happen just disable world buffs for the first couple of weeks so bosses aren't "Brute forced" and the proper mechanics are used. After those first couple of weeks you should have a good idea of what needs tweaked and worked on, if anything.

The real reason bosses are being blown through is because everyone is decked out in full T2.5 and knows the Kronos raids inside out from running them for years.
 
If they want to make Naxx a tiny bit hearder, just remove all world buffs upon entering the raid. But dont change flowers (or other buffs) for farmed content, which has records standing from the current system (before flower change).
 
Honestly if you were to change this why not just remove them all together? This change wont affect anyone positively and you have proven in the past to change things arbitrarily not based on 100% evidence (Ironfoe nerf).

All you are doing with this is make raid logging even more prevalent and a bigger chore for people to buff their characters. At this point this is how the hardcore and semi-hardcore guilds operate, the reason people still play is because the alure of naxx but also to push numbers. I dont think that this is only about epeen and if you havent been in one of the guilds who strive for this I think its hard to understand.

Organizing a speedrun is a pretty amazing feet because you are trying to make 40 people perform with no mistakes. In some points of the runs its enough for 1 person to fuck up the run for everyone so its like Summer Games Done Quick but its 40 people on that couch and if one of them fails they all fail the record. This organizing, theorycrafting and executing can be very exciting and fun to some people and the idea of breaking that record is enough motivation to keep them logging in week after week and farm.

On the other hand we have people who point out behaviours that cause people to be salty (dying to lose buffs) or overreact to changes made by the devs. They think that people should just enjoy the game etc and I have been on both sides so I can see both points.

We all enjoy the game differently but really, does this change do anyone any good? This wont stop guilds from getting the songflower buff for raids, it will only make them leech ZG/Ony buff from a different guild then find a flower and log out their character until the next raid. Some people already did this but for the people that didn't they are now pretty much forced to do the same.
 
The player should adapt to the game, not the other way around.

case_dismissed.gif
 
Mb we should start to list calculations so everyone sees clearly which impact all those world buffs have on DMG and raid clear times. I am personally also for a blizzlike version of the server but it seems fair to state that raids without full world buffs will take not only 15 mins longer. Example: a fully buffed lock does roughly 3 times of the DMG an unbuffed lock does.
 
No, I don't think that is the argument.

Ultimately, you can see the fundamental groundwork on everyone's arguments by not reading their words but abstracting the direction of their sentiments and there's 3 major views. Many who spend their time arguing for the change dont know or care about the songflower buff but instead direct it as attacks and mockery to the raiding playerbase and their motives are neither principled nor pragmatic but exist to lower others. Others argue the pragmatic effects based on the history of the server, convenience and the dying playerbase - they want to stay the course and leave as is. The smallest minority is on the principle of blizz-identical emulation, and I actually very rarely meet people who actually know what this means. Kronos has a highly customized server that its hard to argue this point although I wish they could argue it.
 
Boss kill times is a extremely small part of raid clear time. Trash, ressing, buffing, drinking, marking and people slacking/lacking drive to optimize trash is what takes up time. Especially with world buffs some people nearly pass out on technicians or knockback packs in aq40.
 
Fei pretty much sums up all the points expressed. While blizzlike emulation is an OK argument I find it hard to swallow it coming from kronos staff based on all the unblizzlike changes they've made (Soulstone getting removed if the warlock leaves the raid OFC)

My main problem with the change is it proves to me the vote system they have for the bug tracker doesnt mean shit.

Picture showing that there was ZERO votes to fix songflower
https://gyazo.com/a9e76c239ec266a594a1815b2d34d4f1

Picture showing plenty of other unsolved issues with 1+ or more votes that aren't fixed or addressed and this is but one of the many pages
https://gyazo.com/113c7505ebe55bbec325880dbebd83c5


Picture showing goblin rocket helm bug that has eight votes to fix yet somehow songflower had priority with 0 votes
b2be19a33f767bb392060cf8abe6b33e.png

https://gyazo.com/b2be19a33f767bb392060cf8abe6b33e

And here is my favorite! A main raid mechanic that is currently not blizzlike with 10 votes to fix yet somehow songflower still had prio
https://gyazo.com/a40e88adaf414d714a6e1de09c0fc454
 
Voting never meant much. It's all about how often you bring issues you want fixed to their attention on forum/Discord, how loud you whine about them, and how willing they are to deal with that issue in the first place.

In case of songflower, they are VERY willing, and it's all that matters for it to get priority over other issues.
 
Yeah I suppose just never really looked into it until now. What's even more funny about this is the songflower ticket was made in 2014. Obviously world buff nerfing is high on priority now as oppose to 3 years ago when they could've made this fix and said "blizzlike" and no one would bat an eye

Maybe the bosses will survive for one more second now :lol:
 
People will not want to give up on the buff that they used for more than 2 years on this realm. Instead, everyone will raid log even harder and keep their mains logged out for days ahead of raid nights. It's been mentioned already, I am not saying anything new.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom