Interesting and valuable perspective. Do you, or anyone else, know the exact buffed values in Feenix' Naxxramas? How buffed was it?
The Question of Naxxramas Difficulty
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Interesting and valuable perspective. Do you, or anyone else, know the exact buffed values in Feenix' Naxxramas? How buffed was it?
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/44455267
I don't think they ever released armor/resistance/damage values, but things were fairly buffed. There are videos available of most of the instance if you search around a bit.
I don't think they ever released armor/resistance/damage values, but things were fairly buffed. There are videos available of most of the instance if you search around a bit.
Anything short of the removal of world buffs, and a 50% hp buff (at minimum) to all bosses, and Kronos Naxx will be disappointingly easy. I've already provided plenty of evidence and analysis for why, but if you need a recap, here you go:
1) Vanilla Naxx was tuned with a specific number for raid dps in mind. Every PTR, Blizzard observes raid dps very carefully--often using volunteer top guilds to do dps benchmarking work (I participated in several), in order for their devs to gauge how to set boss timers, hp values, etc. Raid dps was observed prior to Naxx in Vanilla, and boss hp values were set accordingly to challenge the top guilds of that era.
2) 2017 overall raid dps is much higher than it was in 2006, even comparing an average Kronos guild to the top retail guilds. We bring fewer healers, we bring fewer tanks, and we optimize gear, buffs, and debuffs much better. All those equate to higher raid dps. How higher is our dps? Using data from kill times from 2006 Naxx, and comparing those to the kill times of the average Kronos guild clearing AQ40 regularly, without world buffs, we are doing 75% - 100% more raid dps, on average. That's excluding guilds like Onslaught, Synced, and Vanguard, who are even higher...
3) Higher average raid dps means bosses die much faster than back in 2006, which means significant boss mechanics and even entire phases can be completely ignored or skipped. Noth wasn't designed to be killed before his first balcony phase. Heigan wasn't designed to be killed in only one, or even zero dance phases. Patchwerk wasn't designed to be killed in only 3-4 minutes the first time your guild sees him.
Doing roughly twice as much dps as guilds did back in 2006 means that we are basically required to execute each main boss mechanic ONCE (if at all), and then the fight is over. Back then it was 2-3 times. Obviously, the more opportunities you have to fuck something up, the better chance someone fucks it up. That's what made Naxx difficult. Most of the fights were unforgiving. One death would snowball into more deaths, and soon you were falling behind. But because of our high raid dps, that won't be the case here on Kronos. Your Zombie kiters fucked up on Gluth and died, and you barely got through the first Decimate? Who cares, since the boss is already at 10%! 12 people died to the first Polarity Shift on Thaddius? Who cares, because you'll still kill it 2 minutes before the Berserk! Only 30 people showed up for your Patchwerk progression raid? No problem, you still can kill it well before the Berserk timer!
If you think an un-buffed Naxx is going to be hard, even without world buffs, you need to stop fooling yourself. Elysium chose to leave everything Blizzlike. Want to know how hard their Naxx is? Some guild named Scuba Cops (never heard of them) went on their PTR, and one-shot Kel'thuzad--the final boss in Naxx, and arguably the toughest encounter in all of Vanilla. Does that sound like fun to you?
So no, I don't want Naxx to be so hard that even the Synceds or Vanguards of the world take two months to clear it, like back in 2006, but I do want it to live up to the hype, and the expectation that Naxx will be a challenge, and it will all be worth the two years of waiting that we've endured. If the staff wants to implement some sort of regressive system where hp is lowered over time until we reach blizzlike values, then fine, but please, I implore you staff members to do your best to give us a Blizzlike progression experience, and not another LFR raid like AQ40 was, and like Naxx will be for all those poor Elysium suckers. This is your chance to do something different than them--and to give the community a challenging, and fun Naxx--an experience that players will remember for how enjoyable it was, rather than for how disappointing it ended up being!
-No world buffs (can be brought back later at some point)
-Buff boss hp 50-100% depending on boss (I would be happy to give suggestions)
-No "invisible" changes or timer changes--buffing hp is easier and accomplishes the same goal
That's all we need.
1) Vanilla Naxx was tuned with a specific number for raid dps in mind. Every PTR, Blizzard observes raid dps very carefully--often using volunteer top guilds to do dps benchmarking work (I participated in several), in order for their devs to gauge how to set boss timers, hp values, etc. Raid dps was observed prior to Naxx in Vanilla, and boss hp values were set accordingly to challenge the top guilds of that era.
2) 2017 overall raid dps is much higher than it was in 2006, even comparing an average Kronos guild to the top retail guilds. We bring fewer healers, we bring fewer tanks, and we optimize gear, buffs, and debuffs much better. All those equate to higher raid dps. How higher is our dps? Using data from kill times from 2006 Naxx, and comparing those to the kill times of the average Kronos guild clearing AQ40 regularly, without world buffs, we are doing 75% - 100% more raid dps, on average. That's excluding guilds like Onslaught, Synced, and Vanguard, who are even higher...
3) Higher average raid dps means bosses die much faster than back in 2006, which means significant boss mechanics and even entire phases can be completely ignored or skipped. Noth wasn't designed to be killed before his first balcony phase. Heigan wasn't designed to be killed in only one, or even zero dance phases. Patchwerk wasn't designed to be killed in only 3-4 minutes the first time your guild sees him.
Doing roughly twice as much dps as guilds did back in 2006 means that we are basically required to execute each main boss mechanic ONCE (if at all), and then the fight is over. Back then it was 2-3 times. Obviously, the more opportunities you have to fuck something up, the better chance someone fucks it up. That's what made Naxx difficult. Most of the fights were unforgiving. One death would snowball into more deaths, and soon you were falling behind. But because of our high raid dps, that won't be the case here on Kronos. Your Zombie kiters fucked up on Gluth and died, and you barely got through the first Decimate? Who cares, since the boss is already at 10%! 12 people died to the first Polarity Shift on Thaddius? Who cares, because you'll still kill it 2 minutes before the Berserk! Only 30 people showed up for your Patchwerk progression raid? No problem, you still can kill it well before the Berserk timer!
If you think an un-buffed Naxx is going to be hard, even without world buffs, you need to stop fooling yourself. Elysium chose to leave everything Blizzlike. Want to know how hard their Naxx is? Some guild named Scuba Cops (never heard of them) went on their PTR, and one-shot Kel'thuzad--the final boss in Naxx, and arguably the toughest encounter in all of Vanilla. Does that sound like fun to you?
So no, I don't want Naxx to be so hard that even the Synceds or Vanguards of the world take two months to clear it, like back in 2006, but I do want it to live up to the hype, and the expectation that Naxx will be a challenge, and it will all be worth the two years of waiting that we've endured. If the staff wants to implement some sort of regressive system where hp is lowered over time until we reach blizzlike values, then fine, but please, I implore you staff members to do your best to give us a Blizzlike progression experience, and not another LFR raid like AQ40 was, and like Naxx will be for all those poor Elysium suckers. This is your chance to do something different than them--and to give the community a challenging, and fun Naxx--an experience that players will remember for how enjoyable it was, rather than for how disappointing it ended up being!
-No world buffs (can be brought back later at some point)
-Buff boss hp 50-100% depending on boss (I would be happy to give suggestions)
-No "invisible" changes or timer changes--buffing hp is easier and accomplishes the same goal
That's all we need.
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Sarei
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And I'd like to add that bosses hit way too low on top of what Shard wrote, that's probably the main reason why Kronos PvE feels so trivial. There's no way it makes sense that warriors are able to tank in full or close to full Fury set. On Feenix if warrior wasn't def capped he would get oneshotted if he got critted which makes perfect sense, afterall that gear was made for a reason. As it is here now, tanks just dish out insane amounts of threat in fury gear unpunished for their lack of defensive stats and that's exactly why we deal 200% more damage. Everyone can go full mongoloid on damage spam and not overaggro. If they actually had to use gear designed for tanking in order to not get critted by a boss and die, and not DPS gear, their threat would be way lower, DPS classes wouldn't be able to do all this damage without overaggroing and we wouldn't kill shit in 20 seconds ignoring most or all boss mechanics.
Sarei
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As Topmong already replied, I can't say about some exact numbers when it comes down to damage/armor/resistance values with certainty, but warriors definitely had to be def capped in order to survive, unlike fury tanking we have here.
As for Health Points, I looked up some of the bosses on WoWWiki (for what it's worth as a source) and old YouTube videos and compared numbers in those to Feenix videos on Youtube, here are some of them.
Patchwerk:
3.850.000 HP on retail - http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Patchwerk_(original)
6.833.133 HP on Feenix - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2us6hkWnaqs This was that guild of mine that I was talking about, top guilds like Work in Progress (you can find their videos on YouTube) and similar killed them way more faster.
Noth the Plaguebringer:
1.620.000 HP on retail - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bewZKy06PJE
2.729.482 HP on Feenix - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hspFctrLXeQ
Thaddius:
6.700.000 HP on retail - http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Thaddius_(original)
10.540.000 HP on Feenix - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ee352_QUGo
Maexxna:
1.500.000 HP on retail - http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Maexxna_(original)
2.875.000 HP on Feenix - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGdTbyfWJj4
Heigen the Unclean:
1.780.000 HP on retail - http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Heigan_the_Unclean_(original)
3.027.243 HP on Feenix - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaZGWgl_fA8
Instructor Razuvious:
2.000.000 HP on retail - http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Instructor_Razuvious_(original)
3.535.232 HP on Feenix - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPwctsTUuJQ
So yeah, it's easy to calculate that most bosses' HP was buffed between 70 and 80% whereas Maexxna peaked over 90%.. Didn't compare other bosses, but it's easy to find data if someone is interested
bl4ckc0d3r
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Show me videos of bosses hitting harder back in 2006 than here on Kronos (mind you that armor values are roughly the same in threat gear) and I will go make bug reports myself.
People were tanking like that back in the days too. Surely it was not as many percentagewise and it was not pushed as that by the community, but it was used.
I still remember in the explanation Blizz did back then from Vanilla->TBC that they made changes to ensure Protwarriors were doing more Threat incomparison to before to invalidate Fury as a tanking spec. Devastate and the damage/threat was designed for that, some with the ragediscounttalent to counteract less rage coming in. You also see that in the hiked up boss damage in TBC.
I can't find the notes about this right now, but they exist for sure.
90% of the people who used the world buffs back then used them as an insurrance so fuck ups were able to be negated and you had more leeway. Toppeople here use it to open up new playstyles and are not really possible without. If that is good or bad is a different discussion. But most things are like back in 2006, just used very differently.
I still remember in the explanation Blizz did back then from Vanilla->TBC that they made changes to ensure Protwarriors were doing more Threat incomparison to before to invalidate Fury as a tanking spec. Devastate and the damage/threat was designed for that, some with the ragediscounttalent to counteract less rage coming in. You also see that in the hiked up boss damage in TBC.
I can't find the notes about this right now, but they exist for sure.
90% of the people who used the world buffs back then used them as an insurrance so fuck ups were able to be negated and you had more leeway. Toppeople here use it to open up new playstyles and are not really possible without. If that is good or bad is a different discussion. But most things are like back in 2006, just used very differently.
RedWinston
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if naxx launched a few months ago than i would be all in for removing world buffs but as of right now there are quite a few guilds that have lost very skilled players due to them beeing burned out from doing the same content over and over again to the point where those guilds have ended up with alot of fresh blood that isnt up to par with the rest of the guild..
this results in those guilds topplayers having to basicly "carry" the rest of the raid in order to clear content.
if naxx releases than those skilled players from certain guilds who are going through a rough period have to even push harder wich i fear might be the downfall of those les fortunate guilds who have lost good members.
so with those guilds in mind i'd rather have the worldbuffs not be removed and have blizzlike values.
this results in those guilds topplayers having to basicly "carry" the rest of the raid in order to clear content.
if naxx releases than those skilled players from certain guilds who are going through a rough period have to even push harder wich i fear might be the downfall of those les fortunate guilds who have lost good members.
so with those guilds in mind i'd rather have the worldbuffs not be removed and have blizzlike values.
Sarei
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Yea I never said it's not Blizzlike, but we are discussing whether we should take a Blizzlike path or not, and I'm giving my reasons why we shouldn't. In 2006 healers were bad just as everyone else so tanks would likely die if they weren't def capped and took "a lot of damage". Today healers are good and they can keep a tank up np if he receive that kind of damage, which allows them to tank in full threat gear every fight and gives them luxury to get critically hit and survive. That of course has it's side effects in totally diminishing the concept of survivability heavy, but DPS weak tanking gear (Fury wars and tanks use more or less same items) > Tanking in full damage set, taking a little bit more damage but nothing problematic for today's standards > Building insane amounts of threat > Almost no possibility of overaggro > Going full mong damage spam and killing shit in 20 seconds. Feenix solved this by making it - if you get critically hit by a boss, you likely get oneshotted, which was equivalent of tanks dying in 2006 if they received the same crits as they do on Kronos on today. That made them play def capped. And when you think of it, it makes perfect sense for tanks to be forced to play with def cap, I need 9% hit cap, mage needs 10% hit cap and there's a reason why Def cap was invented in the first place.
I know this is not a popular suggestion, since people wouldn't be able to produce sick amounts of DPS as they are used to due to unlimited threat, but at least we would be playing the game and the way it was intended, not just nuke fucking loot pinatas and wreck those poor bastards even before they can use their special ability to defend themselves.
I know this is not a popular suggestion, since people wouldn't be able to produce sick amounts of DPS as they are used to due to unlimited threat, but at least we would be playing the game and the way it was intended, not just nuke fucking loot pinatas and wreck those poor bastards even before they can use their special ability to defend themselves.
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I would personally like the world buffs to be removed permanently from naxxramas. But if it is gonna be temporary then make it at least be after some time and not just 3 weeks or whatever people seem to be suggesting. There are lot of guilds in the "2nd tier" of raiding guilds who are currently killing cthun on a weekly basis and yet dont expect any serverfirsts in naxxramas. I suspect a lot of these guilds will find it very exciting to see how far they can get before world buffs get enabled. So give it some time to let the 2nd tier guilds compete amongst each other for the accomplishment of at least having defeated the boss under the same conditions as those who got the serverfirst (or see how many they can do before "time's up" on the hardmode).
The way you present peenix like your personal holy grail all the time implicates that you should better go back to feenix in order to be satisfied.
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Sarei
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I'm mentioning Feenix because that's where my experience outside of Kronos comes from, it has nothing to do with that project itself. I can't speak of retail or any other private server when I haven't played them. It's not my holy grail, there's a lot of things I like better on Kronos then I did back then, but there are as well some I liked better there. If Kronos only adopted some of those good features which I'm advocating for, both PvE and PvP wise, we'd have one really sick and pleasant server to play on in combination with it's own good stuff.
Sure, we can leave it full Blizzlike as you're trying to make it. Go watch that Patchwerk video I linked. That's a 3rd tier guild killing Patchwerk with 70-80% HP + damage boost. So not Synced, VG and others, but not even yours Momento Mori and all other in that rank. Take a look at players' gear, it's not top-notch pre-Naxx stuff at all, a lot of MC/20man. Take a look at raid frames - 15 healers, 4 hunters, 3 locks, 2 fury warriors.
Reduce his health by almost half and add all Kronos gear, damage burst and good raid setups on top of it. Do people really want to kill stuff in a minute or 2 without even sniffing boss ablities such as Patchwerk enrage timer? I know I wouldn't have fun at all or be interested even.
Sure, we can leave it full Blizzlike as you're trying to make it. Go watch that Patchwerk video I linked. That's a 3rd tier guild killing Patchwerk with 70-80% HP + damage boost. So not Synced, VG and others, but not even yours Momento Mori and all other in that rank. Take a look at players' gear, it's not top-notch pre-Naxx stuff at all, a lot of MC/20man. Take a look at raid frames - 15 healers, 4 hunters, 3 locks, 2 fury warriors.
Reduce his health by almost half and add all Kronos gear, damage burst and good raid setups on top of it. Do people really want to kill stuff in a minute or 2 without even sniffing boss ablities such as Patchwerk enrage timer? I know I wouldn't have fun at all or be interested even.
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Didn't Feenix have loads of buggy things like the wrong Rage generation, incorrect spell coefficients, so-called "fire rogues", broken set bonuses and various consumables stacking that shouldn't among other problems? For example I heard that Shamans were healing Naxx in full T1 for a while because the set bonus was totally broken. Buffing HP and damage might just have been a ham-fisted attempt to cover for some of the these issues which made the fights easier, in some cases, than they should have been.
PS: World Buffs cannot be disabled permanently as it will lead to extreme raid-logging and in some cases not running BWL, ZG and Ony for Heads and Heart's anymore. Why would I level an alt if I can never get him geared enough to raid? It would damage the entire server from top to bottom.
PS: World Buffs cannot be disabled permanently as it will lead to extreme raid-logging and in some cases not running BWL, ZG and Ony for Heads and Heart's anymore. Why would I level an alt if I can never get him geared enough to raid? It would damage the entire server from top to bottom.
Sarei
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That is players' DPS after Patchwerk fight by the best guild on the server, Work in Progress, in an absolute best in slot Naxxramas gear on every single player. Screenshot taken from this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEFJCkfW1Zk
People on Kronos already do more DPS then this without a single Naxxramas item.
Spazztastic
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Scuba Cops are the top NA guild on Anathema. They were NA first Cthun and 4th on server. On that KT kill they had full world buffs including warchiefs blessing, AND FULL NAXX BIS INCLUDING ATIESH ON ALL CASTERS. So If you are surprised that such a guild 1 shot KT with those buffs and gear then you are crazy.
If anything Elysiums version will be harder than Kronos. They use way higher armor values over there across the board, and their boss encounters are across the board harder than Kronos with the exception of Visc and Twins.
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bl4ckc0d3r
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That was mostly in context of having to hunt 10% DMF for 2-4 days, compared to getting world buffs 1 day (or 1 hour) before the raid on normal weeks. Making DMF damage buff always 10% like all other Sayge's fortunes would go a long way already.
Raid loggers will always raid log as they always need things to do and are active only as long as there is content to keep their focus on Kronos, else they will just go do other things in (gaming) life. That content was lost 10 months ago, then briefly regained after merge, and then lost again 1 or 2 months later.
Anyway, before any speculation, can any "top guild" do a full BWL/AQ run without world buff one week, then show us the number?
I know the dps of my guild on Ebonroc/flamegor without wolrd buff, we kill them in 1:30-1:45 (around 1minute with world buff).
So Patchwerk would be killed by our guild without world buff at the 6/6:30 mins mark.
If you increease the hp pool, there is no way we can kill it ever.
Having fury warriors with, ZG/dmf/DM/N buff increase their dps by a factor of 2/3...
I know the dps of my guild on Ebonroc/flamegor without wolrd buff, we kill them in 1:30-1:45 (around 1minute with world buff).
So Patchwerk would be killed by our guild without world buff at the 6/6:30 mins mark.
If you increease the hp pool, there is no way we can kill it ever.
Having fury warriors with, ZG/dmf/DM/N buff increase their dps by a factor of 2/3...
bl4ckc0d3r
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Maybe on PTR. On Kronos, members would riot because http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Ranking.aspx?Bosses=0B0C0D0E0F0G0H0I1C1D1E1F1G1H1I1J1K&realm=KRO.
If you want Kronos to succeed in the long term and bring new players you have to permanently remove world buffs when entering Naxx.
A few weeks is clearly not enough. When you ask someone not playing on Kronos if he is interested in rolling here, they all almost all say this is a fun server where everything is easier.
Leave everything blizzlike but disable them permanently. I am fucking tired of all these peoples logging off to save buffs as well...
A few weeks is clearly not enough. When you ask someone not playing on Kronos if he is interested in rolling here, they all almost all say this is a fun server where everything is easier.
Leave everything blizzlike but disable them permanently. I am fucking tired of all these peoples logging off to save buffs as well...