The Question of Naxxramas Difficulty

[Brochette]

Maybe on PTR. On Kronos, members would riot because http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Ranking.aspx?Bosses=0B0C0D0E0F0G0H0I1C1D1E1F1G1H1I1J1K&realm=KRO.

If you have more than 70 IQ, you know that going for dps ranks is useless when dmf isnt up, and at best you can have it for 2 weeks when it becomes available.

 

[Meckieh]

The way you present peenix like your personal holy grail all the time implicates that you should better go back to feenix in order to be satisfied.

It's just crazy how you engage in every thread on this website and yet you never contribute with anything remotely productive unless its directly benefits you (your "work" on boss resistances). I know you aren't dumb, so it kinda baffles me how you always manage to spout ridiculous crap. The discussion about Feenix Naxxramas is super relevant, and some research on boss-numbers, kill-times, what sort of guilds could kill what bosses etc. should be done by Kronos Developers. Sarei brings an important perspective that is super relevant for this discussion: How medium - or lesser skilled - guilds do in Naxxramas 40 when encounters have altered HP and damage, cause in reality, that's all we are discussing; if this server only had VG/Synced/Onslaught-quality guilds, then buffing HP/damage would be an easy decision, as that decision would have almost zero backlash (these guilds would eventually clear it and probably wouldn't even whine if it was too hard, as most of them most likely welcome an actual challenge). However, on Kronos, there are several medium-tier guilds which could run into trouble if the bosses get too hard, and while Naxxramas shouldn't be catered towards the "casuals", you simply can't ignore this segment of players completely either as they are detrimental to the longevity of the server.

For instance, here's what I would think is a valuable contribution to this discussion: Kel'Thuzad was never killed by any guild on Feenix without worldbuffs, and as far as I know, he was introduced at a later stage where people were already decked in T3 (someone correct me if im wrong here). He had 300% boosted hp (dunno about damage) so about 9 million. If he was unkillable on Feenix (or atleast very, very difficult even in T3) without worldbuffs, then trippling the value is most likely too much on Kronos should wbuffs get disabled.

If Sarei's medium-tier guild did decent (10 bosses over the span of 3 weeks?), with average buffed values of about 80%, then that tells me the lesser guilds on Kronos won't be stuck on Anub forever with the discussed values (25-50% hp). If the top guilds on Feenix couldn't kill KT at 300% without worldbuffs, then it tells me the medium-tier guilds will never be able to do it without worldbuffs.

Feenix and Kronos may not be totally identical, but there are valuable lessons to be learned from some of the information available when trying find the sweet spot between unkillable and difficult by altering values.

EDIT: Lmao, you are literally one of the people who bring up the fact that lesser guilds may struggle if content gets buffed, and then when one of the representatives of this segment tells a story about how his medium tier guild did in Naxxramas with buffed values, you tell him to go back to his "holy grail of a server". I'm having a hard time here Chainsaw... Really?

 

[Chainsaw]

@meckie: as mentioned before, feenix was also completely bugged (e.g. armor values, resistances, ignite stacking at some point, dmf always 10% just to mention a few points), which nobody here takes into account and what you cannot simply compare with Kronos.
What I do not get is that so far everybody complains about difficulty levels like no dance at heigan but nobody except shard with his term "lfr difficulty" complains about no sons ragnaros, 12s razorgore, the three drakes in BWL, one weakening cthun etc.
So far you accepted the difficulty of all raids (in which some guilds struggle already) but all of a sudden you want a huge increase in difficulty (huge difficulty increase for guilds who already take 2 hrs or more for each of BWL and aq). Not every guild on this server has the resources to keep up 3 raid days for a long time and even fewer guilds will clear all raids in two raid evenings. And @Sarei, weren't you the one claiming all the time that the server was dead and not enough new players are coming here? The merge fixed the situation for a little time but now we are at the same point where very little newcomers start here and if you make naxx too challenging for the average guild, those guilds will break apart.

 

[bl4ckc0d3r]

If you have more than 70 IQ, you know that going for dps ranks is useless when dmf isnt up, and at best you can have it for 2 weeks when it becomes available.

If you had more than 70 IQ, you would read that RaidStats calculates average damage based on best 5 numbers out of last 6 attended raids. DMF or no DMF, it doesn't care - it takes the last 6. So it's important to perform to the best of one's abilities constantly.

 

[Losse]

As you enter Naxxramas with your guild, fully buffed to the teeth, a maniacal voice echoes through the halls of the dreaded Citadel.

"Fools. You thought your magical incantations would make you stronger?! You thought raising your morale by slaying the Lord of Blackrock would impress me?! I am The Archlich, the Lord of Naxxramas! Behold my power over your feeble minds!"

A booming airwave blasts through the halls, reaching for the brains of the Heroes of Azeroth, disorienting them for a few moments. The mind-shattering boom did not only affect humans but also the beasts that came with them ... As hunter pets turn aggressive, they dash toward the different halls pulling abominations, ghouls and dead knights.

What follows is a cacophony of squeels and screams, sounds of keyboards breaking, the top DPS warrior shouting "DI me, fast!" - only to be followed by a scream "LoS". As the undead stampede through the raid of heroes, the leader shakingly tries to find Biggles to get revenge. Right as he sees the black cat, a big fat belly with intestines hanging out of it appears in front of him. Knowing full well that was the end for him, he shouted with his last breath: "ALL HUNTERS LOOTBANNED!".

Yes, I voted for removing world buffs in Naxxramas.

 

[Topmong]

@meckie: as mentioned before, feenix was also completely bugged (e.g. armor values, resistances, ignite stacking at some point, dmf always 10% just to mention a few points), which nobody here takes into account and what you cannot simply compare with Kronos.
What I do not get is that so far everybody complains about difficulty levels like no dance at heigan but nobody except shard with his term "lfr difficulty" complains about no sons ragnaros, 12s razorgore, the three drakes in BWL, one weakening cthun etc.
So far you accepted the difficulty of all raids (in which some guilds struggle already) but all of a sudden you want a huge increase in difficulty (huge difficulty increase for guilds who already take 2 hrs or more for each of BWL and aq). Not every guild on this server has the resources to keep up 3 raid days for a long time and even fewer guilds will clear all raids in two raid evenings. And @Sarei, weren't you the one claiming all the time that the server was dead and not enough new players are coming here? The merge fixed the situation for a little time but now we are at the same point where very little newcomers start here and if you make naxx too challenging for the average guild, those guilds will break apart.

Sarei posted a screenshot of a dps meter from a full-decked out raid's dps on feenix, with most of the bugs that inflated dps on the server present in it. And hey, turns out it was lower than what people do on Kronos in AQ40 capped gear.

BWL Drakes, Razorgore or Ragnaros aren't being brought up as they long since lost their relevance. Naxxramas is both a raid yet to be progressed and an instance currently under development so obviously people are going to bring it up first and foremost.

I don't see guilds not being able to clear every instance by themselves a bad thing either, this server is seriously lacking in MC and BWL pugs. Which for the record are a natural thing to pop up later into the progression as guilds won't have time/interest to raid the instances, but individuals will bother to carry new players to gear (and scout for prospective recruits) while hunting for their bindings or trinkets.

Why should new players clear Naxxramas on their second week at 60? Let it be challenging so that the earlier instances remain relevant and you have to gear up through them. It feels like the better alternative than going in to loot full Plagueheart on one's first week of raiding just to end up bored and quit.


EDIT: You seem to be under the misconception that all guilds should be on an equal footing, and this simply isn't the case at all. On a healthy server you would have a consistent flow of new guilds progressing through the content rather than a bunch of different guilds which all clear the same content, but at different levels of efficiency. People playing battlegrounds in other item setups than just leveling greens or full best in slot, some casual guilds, some world pvp guild, maybe even a role-playing guild. That's what most of the newcomers look for in a server, not the option to raid Naxxramas on their second month of playing.

 

[Sarei]

This dude is 200% a fucking Kamchak of PvE community, so his posts should be treated as such.

 

[Brochette]

If you had more than 70 IQ, you would read that RaidStats calculates average damage based on best 5 numbers out of last 6 attended raids. DMF or no DMF, it doesn't care - it takes the last 6. So it's important to perform to the best of one's abilities constantly.

Yes, that's reason why it's stupid, you skip raid whitout dmf you appear stronger bravo to you, your mom will be proud. Point is still valid, you can use one of your raid without wolrd buff (6-1=5)
+ few guild compete on that website and clientside data can be altered.

Anyway competing for single dps rank when your fight last 20 sec, you really need to grow up to think your skill alone has something to do with it,there is basically no rotation to do (or more precisely to mess up). Only the down time should matter as a whole (yeah you know mmo stuff) and Kronos log already rank the guild by fastest kill.

But i get it, it's too hard to ask for 1 week of try without world buffs and see the dps of a top guild would have on boss, to know if yes or no we should alterate some hp value.

 

[Slippy]

Yes, that's reason why it's stupid, you skip raid whitout dmf you appear stronger bravo to you, your mom will be proud. Point is still valid, you can use one of your raid without wolrd buff (6-1=5)
+ few guild compete on that website and clientside data can be altered.

Anyway competing for single dps rank when your fight last 20 sec, you really need to grow up to think your skill alone has something to do with it,there is basically no rotation to do (or more precisely to mess up). Only the down time should matter as a whole (yeah you know mmo stuff) and Kronos log already rank the guild by fastest kill.

But i get it, it's too hard to ask for 1 week of try without world buffs and see the dps of a top guild would have on boss, to know if yes or no we should alterate some hp value.

The fights may last 20 seconds in some cases, but notice it's usually the same people at the top of the meters. That must say something for "skill".

 

[Brochette]

Yeah your mom must be proud , you managed to push 7 buttons in the good order after you gathered all consummables/world buff possible.

 

[Meckieh]

@meckie: as mentioned before, feenix was also completely bugged (e.g. armor values, resistances, ignite stacking at some point, dmf always 10% just to mention a few points), which nobody here takes into account and what you cannot simply compare with Kronos.
What I do not get is that so far everybody complains about difficulty levels like no dance at heigan but nobody except shard with his term "lfr difficulty" complains about no sons ragnaros, 12s razorgore, the three drakes in BWL, one weakening cthun etc.
So far you accepted the difficulty of all raids (in which some guilds struggle already) but all of a sudden you want a huge increase in difficulty (huge difficulty increase for guilds who already take 2 hrs or more for each of BWL and aq). Not every guild on this server has the resources to keep up 3 raid days for a long time and even fewer guilds will clear all raids in two raid evenings. And @Sarei, weren't you the one claiming all the time that the server was dead and not enough new players are coming here? The merge fixed the situation for a little time but now we are at the same point where very little newcomers start here and if you make naxx too challenging for the average guild, those guilds will break apart.

So wait, did people do more or less damage on Feenix? You say they always get 10% dmf (pretty nice change btw), then mention boss resistances and armor (and im assuming they were too high). I'm really not super impressed with their numbers on Patchwerk decked in T3 (it's definitely not crazy damage, and none of them appear to have wbuffs on that kill certainly not 10% DMF...). If you generally do lower DPS on Feenix than on Kronos, and yet some medium tier guild not utilizing proper consumables and was in MC/BWL/AQ40 gear (not AQ40 BiS as most Kronos guilds are at this point) still managed to kill 10 bosses in 2 weeks with average 80% buffed values, then 50% extra hp might actually even be too little on Kronos. Are you really so dense you can't see how information like this is actually valuable?

Naxxramas is an endgame raid, and if you want to alter the values, they should be "tuned" around BiS from the previous content (AQ40) and proper consumable-usage. It will maybe take a guild such as Irae or Memento Mori several resets of Naxxramas-gear to produce the numbers Vanguard/Synced produce right now (simply because they dont all use proper consumables as opposed to VG/Synced-players).

If VG/Synced/ONSLAUGHT (sorry for mentioning you in this terrible context Fei, I know ur guild is just a regular one) can kill KT in some T3 but mostly AQ40-gear with full consumables, then I'm certain any guild on Kronos can down KT with some resets of Naxxramas gear. Most importantly, they won't be completely stuck and everyone will have a sense of progression.

 

[Chainsaw]

Personally I have nothing against harder raids, but if raids are too hard and time consuming, the medium guilds will have a very hard time keeping and recruiting enough players to do 3 raid evenings with 40 players a week. They will need 3 evenings a week and it is very careless to assume that everything will be steamrolled.
Further, if those guilds break because they just cannot organize raids and recruit enough new players, how do you think this will affect Kronos in the long term? Also it is worth mentioning that on the beloved Feenix Warsong server only very few players got atiesh after Yeats of farming splinters (check realmplayers), which means right after the demise of KT not many kills happened and only very few guilds killed KT

 

[Topmong]

KT only became truly killable on Feenix in early 2015, when they fixed a MC related positioning bug that made the boss nearly impossible and a lot more rng-heavy than it already was. The kill video I posted earlier is from only a few days after they fixed the boss and made it killable. IIRC it got killed by three guilds, two alliance and one horde, although you need to keep in mind that Kronos and Nost had already been released at that point, and the server was fairly dead. Realmplayers also isn't a perfect database by any means, and seems to only date back to inspects from early december 2015, which means it's missing a fair number of players.

But yes, being a boss so buffed that it required stacking priests and warlocks on top of a nearly best in slot raid to kill made some guilds lose interest in trying or quit. However, if you followed the discussion at all you'd know that people aren't asking for a ridiculously buffed Naxxramas like the one feenix had, just altered enough so that no boss abilities could be ignored by raw brute force. You'd also know that I and Sarei discredited your entire statement about medium guilds multiple times if you read the posts we wrote instead of just picking words here and there to jump at, but I guess that's too much to ask for.

 

[Sarei]

Btw Kel'Thuzad as stand alone Feenix boss shouldn't be taken into this discussion. It got released after the rest of Naxx was already farmed for couple of years and it was tuned for combination of modern age standards, an absolute BiS Naxx gear on every member of 40-man raid and only few select TOP-TOP really sick and skilled guilds. Also community demanded challenge hard as fuck, but actually killable if executed to the perfection and that's what they got. The fight was really long and there was no room for mistakes whatsoever. On Alliance only 2 extremely good EU guilds killed it after weeks, or maybe even couple months of progressing. Top NA (Ally) and what was believed to be top Horde guild (until chinese guild killed it right before the server closed down topkek) progressed it literally for over half an year and didn't kill it. Obviously, KT should be a lot easier here, but not retail level KT. The rest of bosses shouldn't be much easier (if at all) in my opinion, especially all those before Ghotik, 4HM and Sapphiron.

 

[Chainsaw]

@sarei: I wanted to add something about the dps screenshot taken from the patchwerk video. You said our kronos dps are able to do even more dps. That, however, is only true if you look at short fights. Comparing 12s boss right records with all CDs popped with a 2-5 minutes fight and then saying our dps are even better is rather nothing you can draw conclusions from.

 

[bl4ckc0d3r]

Yeah your mom must be proud , you managed to push 7 buttons in the good order after you gathered all consummables/world buff possible.

What does that say about people who can't seem to be able to push 7 buttons properly?

 

[OnslaughtFei]

Standard values. I don't even know why this needs debated or justified. Kronos has the chance to be the very first vanilla private server to properly release Naxx. Don't let it be Elysium. I don't know why subjectivity and relativity are being brought into this.

The only "custom content" I want is vanilla arenas from the December 2006 patch before TBC came out without the talents.

 

[bl4ckc0d3r]

Standard values. I don't even know why this needs debated or justified.

For all the listed and multiple times reiterated reasons.

 

[OnslaughtFei]

Which boil down to an argument thats basically: some guilds have given too much effort into optimization to keep themselves entertained and now the whole server must deal with the consequences of that.

This wouldnt be debated if no guilds were optimizing.

 

[Danielle]

The irony is real.

 

[Brochette]

What does that say about people who can't seem to be able to push 7 buttons properly?

Is that an insult? Some guild dont have the luxury, nor the will and time, to spend hours getting every single buff in the game on each members, stay offline days to save buff (lol), raiding with 5 healers, 2 tanks and 33 dps on steroids. So no, i don't know how it's supposed to work when you only have 20 sec a fight and 7 buttons to push.

Jk, actually i do, as a hunter, i would just pop aimshot-maccro for gabbar/swamguard/rapidfire/multishot then do 2 dps-rotation. If i crit everything in a row, yeah i am best hunter in the world 1.4k dps, if not i ll do completly shit 750 dps.

But if you imply some of us are really bad (nice mentality btw), you are completly right, i deal with retardness all day long raidleading 35 persons without the proper setup because we cant do otherwise, we, for example, have 50 active raiders who join when they want and when they have time, yes like casual does.

True vanilla players knows that Vanilla wasnt about the difficulty of the raids, it was about 15 players carrying 25 others mouseclickers through content.

Normal guild would wipe on some boss anyway, world buff wouldnt matter at all for them, tuning content to please 120players while it wasnt the initial goal is selfish.

 

[bl4ckc0d3r]

Is that an insult?

No, just a question. You were making fun of people who can push 7 buttons and end up in top of rankings. So my followup question was what that implies about people who push 7 buttons and never get even remotely close. You're the one insulting here. I'm just pointing out consequences following from those insults.

Which boil down to an argument thats basically: some guilds have given too much effort into optimization to keep themselves entertained and now the whole server must deal with the consequences of that.

This wouldnt be debated if no guilds were optimizing.

20k raid DPS to kill Heigan before dance, Fei. That is not optimization, that's an average Kronos guild.

 

[Chainsaw]

@Erminn: and why is that a problem to down heigan before the first dance? Do you guys wait for ragnaros sons phase? No.

The whole naxx discussion is just an issue because some people are bored as fuck and have nothing better to do than giving the Kronos devs extra work by asking for customized content. If you want you difficulty level, go and play in a less pro guild like that rogue dude (forgot his name) on our server did in order to get a challenge after getting 2 or 3 scarab Lord mounts and double r14 on Feenix. If I remember his words correctly he said something like he enjoys wow much more now because his guild's first kills actually felt like proper hard work first kills.

 

[Brochette]

As i explained, you should tell me, my guild record on Ebonroc is 1 minute and 10 sec. I know we have some bad players, but we dont have the luxury to refuse apply like some does.

I really dont know what it's like to kill a boss in 20 sec, it must be so frustrating that your last casted spell dont land because boss died 1/10s before, your dps must look like shit at that moment :wink:

20k raiddps isnt average my god, stop living in your fantasy. Our best dps on a benchmark boss like ebonroc is 16k, memento mori does like 17k and they are 40 and some of the players have world buffs.

 

[Brochette]

Yeah you made me check, maybe we were extremly bad, like more than i thought.

https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?npc=14601#bosskills

Seriously, 70% of the guild kill it between 1 minute and 2 mins which is 10-17k raid dps.

So please stop talking about average when you clearly dont know what you are talking about, i am raidleading an average guild, you dont.
We wont force our players to get flask on Naxx, we have like 300 titan flasks ready for our tanks to make it easier but dps wont increase that much.

Dont ruin the fun of others, just because you are bored. Noone forced you to be that try-hard, if you have fun with your number and not the actual down, we don't care, just keep getting fun with kronoslog and let the other play the game.