The Question of Naxxramas Difficulty

[Amoonir]

Im assuming your analogy chainsaw is saying guilds who have high dps don't get to enjoy the mechanics like lower dps guilds and buffing content (changing the forest) would allow them to.


This doesn't work though. An old man going on a walk is not competing in the race. He is just enjoying a walk. Anyone going into Naxx is competing as an athlete. Some are competing for fun because they enjoy the game kind of like a group of people who play football in a park for fun and others really like to push their limits and they play professionally. Here on kronos both of these groups are playing on the same field. The professional players want a difficult playing field and the casual players want a normal fun game with no alterations.

Hopefully this clears up the analogy to you. It's not clear what is the right decision and this is why people are here debating.

 

[varth]

People in higher up guilds just don't understand how bad the non elite guilds are. I was in the Control AQ40 pug last week and they STILL don't know about Iceblade Hackers on visc.

I'm in a fairly strong guild and I am a try hard. But I'd still rather experience the first blizzlike naxx ever released since 2006. If it ends up being fairly faceroll for my guild then so be it.

 

[Amoonir]

Yeah which is why this is being put to a vote. Some (the elite as you say) want a buffed Naxx and others don't want anything changed which is fine. Whoever gets the most votes wins. As of right now the difference between buffing and not buffing Naxx is really close so it could easily be unbuffed with a couple of votes

 

[Labathor]

So far only 340 votes.

 

[Slippy]

Imo, to change server policy and start buffing content the demand should be overwhelming. Unless it's really wanted by the vast majority it should be left at normal values.

 

[Chainsaw]

@Amoonir: the old man stands for the non elite guilds.

 

[Benjey]

what's the point in having a well scripted naxx if half the scripts are skipped?
back then naxx was designed and adjusted to be a challenge by taking raid dps into consideration.
lets say 2017 avg raid dps is twice as high as 2006 avg raid dps. so what's the definition of a blizzlike naxx nowadays?
that's a matter of opinion...

i think if kronos wants to provide a blizzlike naxx feeling then the raid has to be tuned to 2017 avg raid dps.

 

[Danielle]

Why does no one complain about being able to skip any chance of a Deep Breath on Onyxia by blowing through phase 2?

 

[Sarei]

Because those weren't endgame contents, people aren't sticking around because of said Onyxia or MC. Majority of population plays only for Naxxramas and that's what keeps them attracted to the server. We are all sick of Onyxia, MC and BWL, everyone ran through that content on at least 2 servers for quite a long time and if it wasn't for Naxxramas to come out noone would farm those boss with basically no abilities in practice. But if that Naxxramas turns out to be as trivial as all those other examples it's gonna became just another breathless Onyxia that noone actually wants join or enjoy rather fast and do we really want that? If it's as trivial and boring as whole content before, and with no next raid on the horizon, the server is dead quite soon after the release, same as it would be long time ago if Naxx was never to be released since current content brings no excitement. If it's exciting and requires you to play focused, makes adrenaline rush through your body instead of yawning while spamming 1-2 button pve rotation as we do now during all of those said bosses "without abilities", I can easily see people being interested in it for a much, much longer time.

I' ll just make analogy with PvP. As someone who's mostly into PvP, playing 1 or 2 (when AB is up) same battlegrounds make up for 90% of my playtime. Even though it's the same thing every time, I never got bored of it while there were premade games, you had to focus every time, bring your A-game to win and adrenaline rush was just great. Since there's no premade games I basically stopped playing since there is no challenge, no excitement, no such adrenaline rush bursts as before when you win in a challenging environment or do a sick, close play that determine whether you make it or break it in games that matter.
If Naxx is not challenging I can easily see PvE players quitting soon after that, same as PvP ones (our guild) quit after challenging games stopped happening. There's a difference tho, we were just a small group of players (15-20ish) while PvE community is much larger and it determines if server gonna die or not. If good games are still to happen we would still be playing and if Naxx is good PvE players gonna stick to it much longer. For all those reasons, I want Naxx to be equivalent to Premade v Premade game, since those are supposed to be ceilings of both PvE and PvP in Vanilla. MC/BWL/AQ atm are LITERALLY Premade stomping PuGs, do we want that for endgame content?

 

[Chainsaw]

Sarei, after reading two sentences of your last post: Do you really believe that people will stick around clearing naxx after it has been cleared a few times? I know lots of people who want to kill KT once and then quit. It is an illusion that people will stick around in order to farm a buffed naxx, unless TBC is not very far away.

 

[zork]

I voted to keep world buffs but possibly change HP/damage. After reading the comments I think disallowing world buffs is a cleaner solution.

However, even if the option to dispel world buffs upon entry is chosen, I think Kronos should consider adjusting KT's health pool. A 3mil hp KT will be a joke as phase 3 will be over before all the crypt guards have even spawned.

A question related to KT (going by experience from Feenix): are soulstones here still dispelled if the warlock that used it leaves the party? If so, it should remain that way. We went in on KT with 40 soulstones. It was challenging despite that, but it was a logistics nightmare and felt cheesy.

 

[Spazztastic]

Soul Stone trick doesn't work here nah

Thank goodness

 

[Sarei]

Sarei, after reading two sentences of your last post: Do you really believe that people will stick around clearing naxx after it has been cleared a few times? I know lots of people who want to kill KT once and then quit. It is an illusion that people will stick around in order to farm a buffed naxx, unless TBC is not very far away.

Then be fair and say it like that, I want to kill KT in an ID or 2 without much struggle and quit. However, that's extremely selfish, if noone else then towards the devs who work hard on it, only to see their lovechild abandoned 2 weeks later. That begs the question tho, why would staff cater to part of the community who just want to see Naxxramas interior, clear it as effortlessly and fast as possible and quit, instead of the part of community that actually wants to play their game?

 

[backpedwarlock]

Tune bosses and even trashmobs the hardest possible and no world buffs. Naxxramas wasnt designed for lazy ppl or S-key gaming back in days
Watch a week see if both faction Clean it then nerf if not the case
Go kys ppl who dont want to tune it you are BiS gear of the monkey almost all of you

 

[lanevegame]

Sarei, after reading two sentences of your last post: Do you really believe that people will stick around clearing naxx after it has been cleared a few times? I know lots of people who want to kill KT once and then quit. It is an illusion that people will stick around in order to farm a buffed naxx, unless TBC is not very far away.

I bet true pve lovers wont be able to resist to the desire of being full t3, so much power.

 

[Chainsaw]

Then be fair and say it like that, I want to kill KT in an ID or 2 without much struggle and quit. However, that's extremely selfish, if noone else then towards the devs who work hard on it, only to see their lovechild abandoned 2 weeks later. That begs the question tho, why would staff cater to part of the community who just want to see Naxxramas interior, clear it as effortlessly and fast as possible and quit, instead of the part of community that actually wants to play their game?

Nah! You assumption about me is utterly wrong because I don't plan on leaving after the KT kill. But since you use the word extremely selfish, you and all the other people who want naxx to be buffed because of boredom, should take a look in the mirror. Yes, there are other people on the server who will struggle even with blizzlike naxx.

 

[Topmong]

But people aren't asking for a Naxxramas that's only clearable by the assumed top guilds on the server, people are asking for a slightly buffed Naxxramas where even the assumed top guilds would get to play through boss abilities. This wouldn't make the worse guilds not kill these bosses, it would just make them take a while longer on it.

 

[varth]

People are literally asking for 50%+ more hp, if you don’t think that will wipe a ton of the non elite guilds and stop them from experiencing content then you are nuts. It’s also quite telling that this poll is so close, it’s the elite guilds that are motivated enough to push voting on this kind of thing, and yet it’s STILL so close. How many of those elite guilds have posted on their forums/disc/gmotd to vote in the poll? How many of the non elite guilds do you think did the same?
Don’t implement custom changes for the vocal minority that screws over the silent majority. If the votes were overwhelmingly for custom changes (70%+) then I’d be much more on board, but its not despite the elite guilds dominating the forums from an activity standpoint.

 

[Topmong]

Read Sarei's posts in the thread.

 

[varth]

I did and that's hogwash not worth replying to. Just because people are in non elite guilds that don't want to get screwed from seeing naxx by CUSTOM content you paint them all as "part of the community who just want to see Naxxramas interior, clear it as effortlessly and fast as possible and quit"? Get over yourselves, that's elitist bullshit.

 

[Topmong]

I'll save you the trouble of going more than two pages back, I guess.

Spoiler

The problem is, everyone thinks Naxxramas is 5x harder then any raid before and just freak out when they see a word "buffed", when in fact it's not at all. All bosses are easier then C'Thun with the exception of probably only Ghotik and Kel'Thuzad.


My guild on Feenix killed 10 bosses in Naxx after just few weeks, but we NEVER killed C'Thun.. Their Naxx was buffed, bosses had a lot more health and warriors actually had to tank in tanking, not fury gear like here. Also, we weren't some bigdick guild, way more casual then hardcore. Everyone was in a mix of 20man/MC/BWL/AQ40 gear, half people didn't use consumable and we didn't have much knowledge, RL had to guide us through every fight to the last details. I personally didn't know a single thing about Naxx when I first stepped foot inside, learned everything on the fly. Our raiding core setup was bad as well - way too many healers, never more then 2-3 fury warriors and warlocks and 4-5 hunters. Everyone here will be full BiS pre-Naxx geared, with BiS or at least decent raid setup, full consumable and full knowledge of everything, what to do and where to be in every exact moment in every fight. They would wreck that Naxxramas we were raiding as well, but if you add 100% Blizzlike scripts on top of all that.. well, add 1 and 1 yourself.
I'm looking forward to Naxxramas because it's the only raid I found not to be boring and tedious from my Feenix experience, but if it turns out to be just another brainafk gearfarm run, probably wont be interested for long.

Yea I understand that Chainsaw, but what I'm saying is that my guild was 3 tiers below Synced, Onslaught, Vanguard and we killed 10 bosses in 2-3 weeks in BUFFED Naxx with half as much gear and terrible setups with next to none preparation before entering the instance

Yea I never said it's not Blizzlike, but we are discussing whether we should take a Blizzlike path or not, and I'm giving my reasons why we shouldn't. In 2006 healers were bad just as everyone else so tanks would likely die if they weren't def capped and took "a lot of damage". Today healers are good and they can keep a tank up np if he receive that kind of damage, which allows them to tank in full threat gear every fight and gives them luxury to get critically hit and survive. That of course has it's side effects in totally diminishing the concept of survivability heavy, but DPS weak tanking gear (Fury wars and tanks use more or less same items) > Tanking in full damage set, taking a little bit more damage but nothing problematic for today's standards > Building insane amounts of threat > Almost no possibility of overaggro > Going full mong damage spam and killing shit in 20 seconds. Feenix solved this by making it - if you get critically hit by a boss, you likely get oneshotted, which was equivalent of tanks dying in 2006 if they received the same crits as they do on Kronos on today. That made them play def capped. And when you think of it, it makes perfect sense for tanks to be forced to play with def cap, I need 9% hit cap, mage needs 10% hit cap and there's a reason why Def cap was invented in the first place.


I know this is not a popular suggestion, since people wouldn't be able to produce sick amounts of DPS as they are used to due to unlimited threat, but at least we would be playing the game and the way it was intended, not just nuke fucking loot pinatas and wreck those poor bastards even before they can use their special ability to defend themselves.

 

[varth]

I'll say the same damn thing I said before if you want to just regurgitate that stuff. Forgive me for looking at his most recent post when you gave so much detail on what you were referencing. First of all the bosses considered on par with Cthun or harder are Thaddius, Loatheb, Gothik, 4H, and KT. So now that we have covered that there's 5 bosses at the same or harder than Cthun, lets then consider the fact that it took 9 K1 guilds, and 5 K2 guilds 1month + to clear AQ40.

Naxx is both WAY longer (15 bosses compared to 9), and ONE THIRD of the dungeon are bosses that will take the non elite guilds a very long time to clear. Bosses like Loatheb are especially brutal because he's incredibly consume intensive (EVEN WHEN BLIZZLIKE) and the non elite guilds don't have crazy stockpiles like the elites do.

The dungeon will be plenty hard for the majority of the server, don't screw them so the minority get a challenge when they have made every effort on the planet to NOT make Naxx challenging. That's their problem, don't put that on the rest of the server.

 

[Amoonir]

Playing the game to its limits is part of what makes the game fun for the elite players. It's not their fault content becomes easier when they do this. I could very easily spin this argument.

Casual guilds Dont put enough effort in to the game so content feels too hard for them. They should just try harder to improve themselves and use more consumes if they want an easier experience.

On top of this Sarei has consistently provided evidence for why casual guilds should be able to clear most of Naxx just fine. Unless you have evidence of casual guilds failing to clear unbuffed I don't know if I can agree with your point. Since it seems Naxx can be cleared by casuals when it's insanely buffed

 

[Topmong]

What are you basing this information on? I and Sarei have actually raided this instance, and I can tell you that neither Thaddius or Loatheb should be more difficult to bring down than C'thun is. Gothik is a bit more mechanical, but a single individual doesn't have to worry about as much on the boss either, as long as they know their specific task. The biggest reason why people couldn't bypass it was a lack of available shackles.

I thought I already explained it before in this very thread, but Loatheb isn't as "consumable heavy" as you guys keep trying to make it sound, Four Horsemen is the boss that eats multiple Shadow Protection potions because it lasts longer. An individual having to farm one or two shadow protection potions, perhaps a stack of major health potions and five heavy runecloth bandages bandages, totaling a bit under 25 gold on the Alliance AH a week doesn't sound that bad to me. But if this truly is too much for you then there are various ways to strategically make this boss less of a strain on the consumables; warlock healthstones, having a priest or two spec lightwell to ease out a group of melees, having multiple shadowpriests and so on. This boss is very lenient on his mechanic, it even got 5-manned during the Burning Crusade prepatch.

EDIT: The main reason why Naxxramas or Vanilla pve in general isn't challenging is the fact that the content is over a decade old, not because of overbuffed dps. Guilds like Vanguard or Synced make this already simple content even simpler by their gear and damage, but they are not the people to blame for the lack of difficulty in vanilla.

 

[varth]

"On par with C'thun or harder"

"neither Thaddius nor Loatheb should be more difficult to bring down than C'thun is"

For someone who criticized me not reading 4+ posts from Sarei you didn't spend much time reading my 1 post. Loatheb is consume heavy because you are using that many pots EVERY SINGLE ATTEMPT. For the non elite guilds that won't even have a RL that has cleared naxx before or a bunch of great players they will be wiping a lot EVEN IF IT"S BLIZZLIKE.

Amoonir I'm not criticizing players who push themselves to the limit, I am myself one of those players and that would be rather stupid. What I'm criticizing is tryhards who then try to custom change the server to challenge themselves and cause a large amount of the player base to potentially not experience a lot of Naxx.

I don't understand why people give a shit about what anyone says about ANYTHING on Feenix. That server was an abomination on multiple levels and while people had great times there it's not comparable to Kronos in any fashion. You using an argument based upon that server that was so custom that it just shouldn't be used for anything besides memories. We have had people from guilds from THIS SERVER telling you their benchmarks with links and you are overlooking that in favor of Feenix?

It's impossible to fully tell how guilds will do in Naxx on this server, because the PTR had custom stuff like +50% dmg so it was all about finding bugs and such. There's been NO SERVER that has released a blizzlike balanced Naxx, how about we let Kronos release a full blizzlike Naxx and be the first one EVER. Then we will have the first ever private server blizzlike Naxx data to look at. Let Kronos set the god damn standard of blizzlike Naxx. If that ends up being a cakewalk for the entire server (which it won't, AQ40 wasn't a cakewalk for a fair amount of guilds and Naxx by every metric is harder) then let some other server use that accurate data to tune their naxx. Maybe Kronos can tweak the values after a month or so if they feel an overwhelming duty to do so, then the elite guilds can race for the server first or whatever on the harder naxx.

LET KRONOS SET THE STANDARD FOR BLIZZLIKE NAXX!