The Question of Naxxramas Difficulty

[bl4ckc0d3r]

Ouro is the boos to choose if you're trying to make dps comparisons with heigan.

I'm afraid that it is not quite so. Casters are immune to aggro on Ouro, allowing you to keep maximum ignite on without worrying about threat and phase transitions. Furies and rogues barely lose any hits on him if they play properly. Heigan should be more difficult to DPS than Ouro.

 

[Chainsaw]

Mhh. Which boss you suggest then, Erminn?
I would also suggest Golemagg because many people use trinkets and cds on sulfuron guy before.

 

[Amoonir]

You're right it's not exactly the same but it's not possible to get a fight that will be exact.

Heigan has some extra complexities to it as well as threat being a real issue on top of that for casters so dps won't be as high but despite this you can come up with approximations.

The best boss to test dps for heigan would be heigan ofc

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Also I disagree with trinkets and minor CDs not being up for heigan they should be. If you're talking about things that are greater than 5 min then yeah they would probably not be up or shouldn't be used for dps estimations

 

[varth]

Well the Kronos team has a decision to make. They can either set the gold standard for a blizzlike Naxx, or they can be custom fun server #5 and cater to ~10% of the server elite.

 

[crimsonsage]

Well the Kronos team has a decision to make. They can either set the gold standard for a blizzlike Naxx, or they can be custom fun server #5 and cater to ~10% of the server elite.

#1 they already have a reputation for fun server because of 7x, character auctions/trading, and allowing multiboxing
#2 over 30% of guilds have enough DPS to kill Heigan before the dance phase
#3 Blizzlike is interpreted different ways depending on who you ask. Blizzlike difficulty would require them to make bosses harder, in order to give a "blizzlike" experience. Using "original vanilla values" would not be a blizzlike experience.

 

[OnslaughtFei]

I have a hard stance of being objectively blizz-identical emulation. It's why I rolled on Kronos on day 1 over the other because that is what players who played the previous versions of Kronos were saying.

Using someone's subjective experience as an emulation goal is quite frankly, naive.

 

[Chainsaw]

Flamegor dps from the last 5 Ids:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TKgiRwRkW7M0kr77HiIhwvkXUKm5_--xB4SvcQY1-DA/edit?usp=sharing

 

[OnslaughtFei]

The shorter you make the fight the more impact execute phase, trinket uptime and cooldown uptime incredibly blow the numbers up.

When AQ40 first came out, we used to make light of my fellow asians in the chinese guilds and their 14 minute vanilla style twin emps kills or the 10 to 11 minute phase 2 Nefarian kills with full 40. Reality is, if you are even in a semi-competent guild then you live in a bubble where reflection upon the past (if you even actually raided in 2006 and were of adult age) is obscured. There are so many factors in DPS optimization. I linked my 2006 guild's Faerlina kill earlier in this thread in which it is evident how disorganized, poorly geared and poorly optimized we were. There's plenty of other kills, but the funny thing is many of the AQ40 and BWL first kills are faster than other first kills from less knowledgeable guilds that have existed on Kronos.

Spend some time to actually look at how many fury warriors in vanilla 2006 first kill videos there are. They are actually extremely rare. Curse didn't have a single non-tank warrior in almost every one of their Naxx or AQ40 kill videos. Fury warriors are the dominant DPS'ing class in 2017 vanilla. Look at the affliction warlocks in head-to-toe tier in 2006 spamming DOTs, the hemo pvp dagger rogues without windfury, the mix of frost and fire mages, the arms warriors in shitty 2handed weapons, the hunters DPS'ing with 80% auto shot over extended periods of time. You can find all of these quite commonly even in world class 2006 naxx kill videos.

I don't think you can make anything beyond a fallible and weak argument based on feelings and nostalgia to purposefully re-balance the game. I believe its cognitive dissonance and intellectually dishonest to act like anyone didn't operate and play on Kronos on the presupposition that this server was attempting to emulate values and scripts from 2006 in patch 1.12. To alter that course is to alter the promise and expectation this server has ALWAYS operated on and it is a path I do not agree with. I have 400 days played time and have donated 100s of Euros to this server and have held it out through the best of times and worst of times.

I believe no matter what choice people will be upset. The only choice is a compromise where world buffs are temporarily disabled for a very limited amount of time.

 

[Amoonir]

Yeah flamegor isnt the best choice he generally dies fairly quickly so the dps output can appear rather huge because of it which is why I suggested Ouro since its one of the few longterm tank and spank fights as long as you kill him before the submerge. It isn't perfect due to threat not being an issue for range and if Ouro does submerge the dps numbers no longer replicate a long term boss fight since people are unable to dps the boss for a period of time as well as people are able to dps adds.

As far as compromise I agree with Fei the only compromise that would not upset a decent amount of people is to remove world buffing since its the only option that has a majority of people voting in favor for. Whether it should be temporary or a permanent change it seems up to debate based on the poll numbers. It's obvious any amount of buffing will cause disappointment in a sizable amount of the population, especially those who don't even read the forums.

At this point it would be useful for staff to present their plan for naxxramas to be honest this is alot of back and forth with the community and little contribution from the staff(can't say im surprised by this though). Due to the polls having about a 50-50 split for hp buffing it will most likely come down to the kronos staff deciding what should happen.

 

[Chainsaw]

Even considering what Fei wrote about high impact on dps numbers when looking at flamegor execute Phase, only 4 guilds in the list I made are able to kill kill heigan in 90 seconds. This means in a longer fight (heigan takes longer than flamegor) even less dps will be dealt and it will be even harder for the average guild to brute force heigan before the dance.

 

[Amoonir]

Yeah that should still be true if you can't perform high enough dps in a 30 second or less fight you aren't likely to kill heigan since your dps should be slowly leveling off and not increasing as a fight progresses

 

[Brezel]

Also implies that guilds bring to the 70+th Flamegor kill the same roster of players they will bring into NAXX the first few weeks, not some alts to take gear. As well as perhaps not using every single available buff for him that would otherwise be used.
Sure some do, but can't really compare that.

 

[varth]

If anything their dps will be lower than those flamegore #s considering a ton of those guilds parsed that with wbuffs. I can say for sure not like this had wbuffs for those fights. if any change can be counted on for naxx its that wbuffs wont be allowed for the first couple of weeks. So you guys trying to say that they didn't bring their A team to the 70th flamegore, well they had wbuffs and on Heigan we won't.

 

[Amoonir]

It's true that a lot of those parses probably don't have their full Naxx roster but this is purely approximation and speculation. We can't replicate exact Naxx conditions unless we have Naxx parses which we don't so this is the next best thing. All we can say is based on this information given that a lot of these raids may have Alts gimping dps as well as wbuffs increasing dps these are the resulting dps numbers and the conclusions drawn from them. I could also add people in these guilds probably aren't trying as hard as they would in Naxx as far as their rotations and consuming goes which would also lower dps from what it would actually be.

Anyway yes this data will not directly predict Naxx conditions. The only data that could is Naxx data itself which we don't have access too. But it still can be used for approximate predictions of what could happen in Naxx. take it with a grain of salt if you are overall skeptical

I would also agree with varth that wbuffs provide quite a bit of a boost to overall dps compared to say the loss in dps for the addition of 3-5 Alts who would also benefit from wbuffs.

 

[Desplice]

Isn't arguing over how many guilds will be able kill Heigan before dance pretty ridiculous? Back in retail guilds usually had to endure more than one dance phase and that is what blizzlike experience would mean. Who (except Fei) cares about reproducing exact blizzlike values?

Just buff encounters to the point where it's not possible to completely bypass the relevant mechanics by insane DPS and things should feel pretty good. It's not hard to nerf the encounters if they feel too hard in the end while the opposite is usually not a good idea.

If Naxx feels as boring as MC, BWL and most of AQ40 I don't really see the point of going there. It should be a challenge.

I was in a mediocre guild back in retail and we didn't get to kill a whole lot of bosses in Naxxramas. I still enjoyed wiping much more than I currently enjoy raiding because boss kills actually meant something which is currently not the case.

 

[Rolexsweep]

Perhaps we have different definitions of sustainable, because to me, a sustainable future for Kronos is not one where the majority of guilds clear Naxx in one night or within a week. A lot of people were going to quit after seeing Naxx regardless, but even more will quit out of disappointment, if what they waited two years for is just another easy 40 man raid like AQ, BWL, and MC were and still are.

Well somehow other servers manage to sustain their population even with all content released and difficulty on faceroll mode. People like you will quit the server regardless, because you are only there for the progression and that's it. If you want to keep players, give them something else than progression. Let them gear alts and derp around in Naxx gear with stupid specs, who cares, at least you get a WSG pop.

 

[Tikob]

Do it blizzlike without customs or as less customs as possible. I dont care how easy|hard it will be to kill all the bosses, I want the correct reconstruction of that Naxx.

 

[Meckieh]

Well somehow other servers manage to sustain their population even with all content released and difficulty on faceroll mode. People like you will quit the server regardless, because you are only there for the progression and that's it. If you want to keep players, give them something else than progression. Let them gear alts and derp around in Naxx gear with stupid specs, who cares, at least you get a WSG pop.

Enlighten me which servers have released a Naxxramas with Blizzlike-values and sustained their population.

 

[varth]

Enlighten me which servers have released a Naxxramas with Blizzlike-values and sustained their population.

That's the thing, a Naxxramas with Blizzlike values has never been done.

 

[Slippy]

Enlighten me which servers have released a Naxxramas with Blizzlike-values and sustained their population.

That's because people think it's the end. If Kronos can lay out the plan for TBC progression without taking forever then the server should be plenty healthy.

 

[nimeralos]

If Kronos can lay out the plan for TBC progression without taking forever then the server should be plenty healthy.

Can Kronos..? It takes almost 1.5 years for Ares to re-launch a server that was in a decent shape already. And Kronos is developing from a scratch? To be honest, I don't see Kronos TBC happening in years, unless they simply take the Ares core and screw Vanilla content (which, in my opinion, would be a reasonable solution).

 

[Bazzil]

Naxxramas Difficulty adjustments (if any) will be announced after the Deathknight PTR.

 

[Slippy]

Can Kronos..? It takes almost 1.5 years for Ares to re-launch a server that was in a decent shape already. And Kronos is developing from a scratch? To be honest, I don't see Kronos TBC happening in years, unless they simply take the Ares core and screw Vanilla content (which, in my opinion, would be a reasonable solution).

I'm mainly talking about communication so people know what's up. It would be bad if Naxx was released then there was just silence for 6 months similar to what happened after the merge.

 

[Sarei]

This is a tank in his tanking gear.

That's right. Not only that he's tanking in fury gear and def cap doesn't play any role whatsoever, but apparently you don't even need a shield to survive bosses on Kronos just fine.



And with this post, I'm out of this topic. I assume all these Blizzlike nerds want this joke to prolong and grow even more ridiculous with shit like that in endgame content. Whatever happens, have fun in Naxx everyone.

 

[bl4ckc0d3r]

To people who want to keep it 100% Blizzlike - this is what Naxxramas was beatable by: https://youtu.be/zvbf5k2SmCw?t=166