Paladin Weapon spec talents working?

[TheFishyOne]

Was unable to find any info regarding 1h or 2h weapon spec for Pallies in the bugtracker. Does anyone know how they work here?

 

[killerduki]

1handed weap spec is not working in server, also nobody reported in bugtracker too

 

[TheFishyOne]

I'm horrible at vanilla research. Post your evidence here, Duki, and I will figure out how to make a bug report out of it.

 

[frederik]

1handed weap spec is not working in server, also nobody reported in bugtracker too

That's more like your opinion.

The talent says "Increases the damage you deal with 1H melee weapons by X%". And thats exactly how it works here. It increases the white damage you deal with your 1H weapon. I know you think it should work like "Increases all damage you deal while wielding a 1H weapon by X%" but it never did work that way. So this talent is working here as well as 2H weapon specialization. Did 2H weapon specialization increase all damage you deal while wielding a 2H weapon too? No it did not, yet the description of both 1H and 2H weapon specialization are the same.

Different ranks of judgements did not stack either in 1.12.2, so that is working too. The only thing I noticed not working is that there is no damage reduction when using Seal of the Crusader, which makes it way more powerful than it was back then. This is reported though and I hope they figure out how to fix it.

TL;DR: Paladin skills and talents are working really well here and 1H and 2H specs are working as intended.

 

[TheFishyOne]

So Frederik, you're saying that weapon spec increases the damage from SoR and SoC, as well? If not, then I'm afraid you're wrong.

 

[frederik]

So Frederik, you're saying that weapon spec increases the damage from SoR and SoC, as well? If not, then I'm afraid you're wrong.

No, you misunderstood me. 1H and 2H weapon spec only increases white damage (so only the damage you deal with your weapon). The increase in white damage does not effect SoR as the seals damage is dependent on weapon speed only. It affects SoC though because it does additional holy damage equal to 70% of your weapon damage. But thats like a side effect of it. And thats how it works here.

As far as I know Killerduki believes that 1H weapon spec increases all damage you deal, no matter what source, by 10% (if you put 5 points into it), as long as you wield a 1H weapon. And that is not correct.

 

[TheFishyOne]

Re: Weapon spec talents working

No, I understood you fine. I simply think you are incorrect in saying that weapon spec talents should only affect white damage for Pallies. Think about it, does 1h spec only improve a Prot War's white hits? We have a Prot tree, too, and 1h spec is in the same place in our Prot tree as it is in their's; it was clearly meant for threatgen. Our white hits do even less threat than a Prot War's, and their white hits account for remarkably little of their threat. From a coding standpoint, it would also be far easier to code a flat 10% damage increase while a condition was met than to pick and choose which parts of the damage would be affected. Finally, find a Prot War and have him tclap. Now have him spec out of 1h weapon spec and have him tclap again. Does he do the same damage as before?

Yes, the damage range on a weapon does not affect the output of SoR. Your point being? It's still dependent on white attacks, is it not? The talent is purposefully equivalent to the War version of the talent, which is to be a threat boost.

To support my claim, here is a vanilla-era Paladin guide from the official forums (circa Aug. 2006), courtesy of The Internet Wayback Machine: http://web.archive.org/web/20061110...rcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=11931828&sid=1

Scroll down to the part where it talks about Prot talents, and read the entry on 1h weapon spec.

 

[killerduki]

that's what i been telling you fishy before :s they ask for something impossible or hard to prove , other thing is they deny the SoR formula which match with the classic videos damage.

3 stuffs remember.

1handed , SoR , Multiple Judgements.

i am not going to bother with proving them anything as Psojed already mention 1handed even but whatever.

Ill let them do that job as i am not yet playing here , will see if i do or not .

p.s thanks for providing them that link instead of me , it really rekt frederik .

 

[TheFishyOne]

Duki, I just got done filing a bug report about this particular issue. I have noticed that these devs will generally fix stuff as long as you have vanilla era evidence. I fully understand that sometimes, shit was taken for granted back then, and thus nothing was ever written about it, and that common sense should reign supreme in such cases. However, I am not part of the dev team here, so it is what it is. So, rather than trying to break down a brick wall by beating my bare head against it, I choose to focus only on issues for which I CAN find period evidence, until such time as the dev team comes around to an approach that is a bit less line-in-the-sand rigid.

As I'm sure we both know, you are MUCH better at digging up this sort of thing than I am. If you have any more period documentation for Pally issues, please forward it to me via a Kronos forum PM, and I can file bug reports on your behalf, as I have years of experience writing analytically in English.

 

[frederik]

That link proves nothing. It's just something some dude said on the forum.

From a logical point of view it does not make any sense though. You claim it increases the damage you deal from all sources by 10% as long as you wield a 1H weapon? Wouldn't the description just say so? Also 2H weapon spec did not work that way either, yet both descriptions are the same. If you say 1H weapon spec affected white hits and SoR that would be rather strange, as there is a holy talent already doing just that and it would be very strange if the talent would only affect that one spell without mentioning it.

The description reads "Increases the damage you deal with one-handed weapons by x%." and it does exactly that. There isn't really any room for interpretations.

This was lengthy discussed on the Nostalrius forum as well and some provided evidence for and against it. I suggest you read through it.
Killerduki is totally resistent to anything that does not support his claims anyway no matter what it is that is not working in his opinion. So I am out of here. I said what's my opinion on this. There hasn't been posted any definite proof neither here or there. And if you claim, there isn't such proof Killerduki, should the devs just take your word for it and implement it that way? I'd rather rely on what the description of the talent is telling quite clearly.

 

[killerduki]

Duki, I just got done filing a bug report about this particular issue. I have noticed that these devs will generally fix stuff as long as you have vanilla era evidence. I fully understand that sometimes, shit was taken for granted back then, and thus nothing was ever written about it, and that common sense should reign supreme in such cases. However, I am not part of the dev team here, so it is what it is. So, rather than trying to break down a brick wall by beating my bare head against it, I choose to focus only on issues for which I CAN find period evidence, until such time as the dev team comes around to an approach that is a bit less line-in-the-sand rigid.

As I'm sure we both know, you are MUCH better at digging up this sort of thing than I am. If you have any more period documentation for Pally issues, please forward it to me via a Kronos forum PM, and I can file bug reports on your behalf, as I have years of experience writing analytically in English.

http://forum.twinstar.cz/showthread...f-the-Crusader?p=796256&viewfull=1#post796256

one you have there with included post as evidence from 2005 dating

second for sor you have in "other server" bugtracker written by me , you can always step there and check it out.

and check this report comment reply's

https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?issue=7652



but yeah read what frederik says :

That link proves nothing.

funny enough to deny ®Blizzard Forums

But let me tell you the logic in that "description"

"Increases the damage you deal with one-handed weapons by x%."

It does not say White or Yellow Damage or Melee Damage or Weapon Damage , it just says Damage you deal. (no specification) .

 

[frederik]

Sorry, but how do the links you posted have anything to do with the One-handed Weapon Specialization talent? The first one is a discussion about Judgement of the Crusader and the other one a ticket about threat on crowd controlled targets.

funny enough to deny ®Blizzard Forums

Just because somebody wrote something in the Blizzard forums back then it automatically has to be the truth? Everybody could write everything there. It wasn't like mods were constantly scanning the forums to correct people, come on dude.

But let me tell you the logic in that "description"

It does not say White or Yellow Damage or Melee Damage or Weapon Damage , it just says Damage you deal. (no specification) .

No, it says "damage you deal with one-handed weapons." Not all damage you deal while using a one-handed weapon, but damage you deal with the weapon itself. That sentence is not too hard to get.

 

[Bazzil]

There are many cases where talent or ability tooltips does not reflect the game mechanics you would expect.
A good example is the warrior talent Improved Shield Block. There are 3 ranks of it, and on each rank it says "Allows your Shield Block to block an additional attack and increases the duration by 0.5 seconds" - but all 3 ranks only lets it do that same one additional block.

Another example is the mage talent Arcane Focus which "Reduces the chance that the opponent can resist your Arcane spells by 10%" but does not have anything to do with the monsters resistance to arcane spells at all. It affects Chance to Hit with Arcane spells, which is a whole different thing, mechanics-wise.

We therefore try to handle each report (particularly those that have to do with class-mechanics) on a case-by-case basis. We deliberatly try to suspend "common sense" when looking at these reports, because very often common sense is biased towards how you personally would like it to work.

As for the specific report in question, i do not play paladin myself so i will await other developers/testers (or any member of the community) to take a thorough look and perhaps add more sources or information.

 

[killerduki]

The only difference between each expansion was that :

Vanilla : 5 ranks , 2% each rank.

TBC got nerf down to : 5 ranks , 1% each rank

WoTlk got op again to : 3 ranks , 3~% each rank.

And tbc was only tooltip changed to clarify how talent work because many missunderstood it until Geld found it and mention in "Sticky" Approved by Blizzard Post in their Forums, but they change the tooltip again in wotlk , the function didn't change , only tooltip. Talent been working always the same.

 

[frederik]

Well if you go with that that dude on the forum said, he mentions only the damage of SoR and not all damage. And even though it's stickied, it does not proof anything. From my side it's all said. I think it's better to move this discussion to the bug tracker, where people can read it, that can actually can decide anything about this. Perhaps with more solid proof.

 

[Psojed]

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Patch_2.1.0

One-Handed Weapon Specialization (Protection): Now increases all damage caused by the paladin by 1-5% while a one-handed weapon is equipped.

Vanilla

Increases the damage you deal with one-handed melee weapons by 10%.

Apply Aura #79: Mod Damage Percent (1)
Value: 10

TBC

Increases all damage you deal when a one-handed melee weapon is equipped by 5%.

(6) Apply Aura #79: Mod Damage Percent (127)
Value: 5

1 = physical or weapon damage, 127 = all damage. Developers can tell you precise description, the point is, the change came with TBC.

 

[killerduki]

Look what is the most funny thing...

Talking about wikipedia which is not correct :

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Patch_3.0.2

One-Handed Weapon Specialization now increases damage by 2/4/6/8/10%.

"it still say damage" but we all know that it mean for "all damage" .


Vanilla Version

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/One-Handed_Weapon_Specialization_(paladin_talent)?oldid=767948

Rank	Increases by
1	2%
2	4%
3	6%
4	8%
5	10%

Description

Increases all damage you deal when a one-handed weapon is equipped.

• Note* This should include spell damage dealt when a one handed weapon is equipped.

TBC Version

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/One-Handed_Weapon_Specialization_(paladin_talent)?oldid=768020

Rank	Increases by
1	1%
2	2%
3	3%
4	4%
5	5%

Description

Increases all damage you deal when a one-handed weapon is equipped.

• Note* This should include spell damage dealt when a one handed weapon is equipped.

WOTLK Version

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/One-Handed_Weapon_Specialization_(paladin_talent)?oldid=2407057

1	4%
2	7%
3	10%

Tips

• This affects all damage done, not just melee auto attacks.

®Blizzard Forums back in 2006

Geld revision Guide

http://web.archive.org/web/20061110...rcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=11931828&sid=1

Tier 6: One-Handed Weapon Specialization

One-Handed Weapon Specialization (5/5), increases the damage dealt with one-handed weapons by 2/4/6/8/10%
This is a better talent then it appears, since it increases damage done by Seal of Righteousness when you have a one handed weapon equipped as well. Good for threat generation tanking.


Confirmation that this person Topic is "Sticky" and Approved by Blizzard.

http://web.archive.org/web/20061110...ofwarcraft.com/board.html?forumId=10018&sid=1

Here is Personal Contact regarding this question and Direct links for how it work.

- - - Updated - - -

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Patch_2.1.0


Vanilla



TBC



1 = physical or weapon damage, 127 = all damage. Developers can tell you precise description, the point is, the change came with TBC.

Your sources are not even reliable , you link your own website as "source" which is invalid.


tbh whatever , at least fishy you saw my points

Best meme i ever seen for 2016

"You think you do, but you don't" - google it.

 

[frederik]

Please take a close look at the links you provided. And what somebody said in a sticky in the forum proves nothing.

Besides dude you talked to on the screenshots literally said that he cannot give you any information and that you have to look for it yourself. And you say in the conversation that wowwiki does not provide the information about the vanilla version of the talent, yet you link it as vanilla version. The wowwiki links you provided for what you say is the vanilla version and for the TBC version are 1 hour apart written in July 2007.

 

[killerduki]

Please take a close look at the links you provided. And what somebody said in a sticky in the forum proves nothing.

Besides dude you talked to on the screenshots literally said that he cannot give you any information and that you have to look for it yourself. And you say in the conversation that wowwiki does not provide the information about the vanilla version of the talent, yet you link it as vanilla version. The wowwiki links you provided for what you say is the vanilla version and for the TBC version are 1 hour apart written in July 2007.

That is because the OP have separated them at 2007 and he admit that .

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:One-Handed_Weapon_Specialization

O.K, so, I created 2 new pages, a warrior and paladin specific page for this talent, using what this page used to look like as a template. Then updated all the pages that link to the warrior/paladin specific talent, updated the paladin talent on the paladin page and finally changed this page into a redirect page for the classes specific talents. Pro's feel free to undo and correct as you wish.Benser

In b4 they was the same for Vanilla Warrior and Paladin in 1 spot:

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/One-Handed_Weapon_Specialization?oldid=190947

Revision as of 19:21, July 22, 2006

And ye what about Psojed links provided ? Twinstar database ? what does that prove compare to Blizzard Forums back in 2006?

Patchnote is all about nerf down to 5% from previous 10% and clarify tooltip , but it was working all the same.

Enough talking about this.

 

[Psojed]

And ye what about Psojed links provided ? Twinstar database ? what does that prove compare to Blizzard Forums back in 2006?

That the mechanic was different.

 

[frederik]

That is because the OP have separated them at 2007 and he admit that .

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:One-Handed_Weapon_Specialization

O.K, so, I created 2 new pages, a warrior and paladin specific page for this talent, using what this page used to look like as a template. Then updated all the pages that link to the warrior/paladin specific talent, updated the paladin talent on the paladin page and finally changed this page into a redirect page for the classes specific talents. Pro's feel free to undo and correct as you wish.Benser

He did this to reflect the change this talent got in TBC for paladins, prior to that both talents worked the same. He's is not referring to the vanilla version of this talent. This becomes obvious because one hour later he corrected the percentages to the TBC values.

 

[killerduki]

That the mechanic was different.

It makes non sense, you are posting your own "modified Kronos database" and you have no proper evidence or sources to deny even Blizzard Forums.

You are posting "as evidence" Kronos Website and Edited wowiki trying to counter ®Blizzard Forum ..

 

[tristan]

It makes non sense, you are posting your own "modified Kronos database" and you have no proper evidence or sources to deny even Blizzard Forums.

You are posting "as evidence" Kronos Website and Edited wowiki trying to counter ®Blizzard Forum ..

I think that the definitive evidence, posted right here on this thread, is this one:

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Patch_2.1.0
One-Handed Weapon Specialization (Protection): Now increases all damage caused by the paladin by 1-5% while a one-handed weapon is equipped.

Patch 2.1.0 TBC, it clearly states that it increases all damage now, from what you can infer that before it didn't work like that, and that's why you can't find any solid proof or evidence of that mechanic in vanilla.

If that wasn't the case, Blizzard usually posted something like "corrected tooltip description to match the actual mechanic" on the patch notes. But sadly this is not the case.

 

[killerduki]

I think that the definitive evidence, posted right here on this thread, is this one:


Patch 2.1.0 TBC, it clearly states that it increases all damage now, from what you can infer that before it didn't work like that, and that's why you can't find any solid proof or evidence of that mechanic in vanilla.

If that wasn't the case, Blizzard usually posted something like "corrected tooltip description to match the actual mechanic" on the patch notes. But sadly this is not the case.

You see the Logic there?

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Patch_3.0.2
open the link and see yourself ^
One-Handed Weapon Specialization now increases damage by 2/4/6/8/10%.

"it still say damage" but we all know that it mean for "all damage" and it is not 5 ranks but 3.


If it was not working like that, then why would someone in 2006 (patch 1.12) mention it ? Especially on "Sticky" Topic confirmed by Blizzard Dev. ...


http://web.archive.org/web/20061110...rcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=11931828&sid=1

Tier 6: One-Handed Weapon Specialization

One-Handed Weapon Specialization (5/5), increases the damage dealt with one-handed weapons by 2/4/6/8/10%
This is a better talent then it appears, since it increases damage done by Seal of Righteousness when you have a one handed weapon equipped as well. Good for threat generation tanking.


(Provide Evidence) please to Counter the post from 2006 (patch 1.12.1) !


Wikipedia by any mean is not reliable source because it is edited and modified thus many stuffs are written wrong (example is Consecration non existant patch note written there and the 5 ranks of wotlk one-handed) .

Kronos Database is also not reliable source.


It was only tooltip changed to clarify how it work because many misslead it until "Geld" provide that explanation and it was "Nerf" in TBC down to 5% (since tbc give shit load of spell damage unlike vanilla)

 

[frederik]

It all has been adresses already. Read above