Other Windfury Totem & Swing Timer

[filvorja]

Discussion about
https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?issue=10394

Are Windfury Procs supposed to reset your weapons swing timer, or not.


Please only post information regarding the issue.

- - - Updated - - -

Laintime-C
30:54
Dodge or w/e (can't speak Korean)
30:55 Hamstring 47
30:55 White hit (supposedly Windfury)
30:59 White hit

4 second gap from Windfury to last white and almost 5 second gap from first to last.

Prophet_pvp
2:52 White hit 283
2:54 Hamstring
2:54 White hit (Windfury)

Next possible White hit without resetting would be at 2:55/2:56 (2:56 only if the timing was really off)
2:56 you see him performing a Mortal Strike so hes still within melee range, yet not regular hit is performed. He also gets hit for 101 at 2:56 to 2:57 which also implies that hes still within range. The timer should have already reset until then, imo.

Next possible White hit with resetting would be at 2:58/2:59.
Disregarding lag or w/e he is in range at least once at 2:58. Since he didn't perform a melee swing in this moment I conclude that his weapon timer was still not fully reset and he had to at least wait another 0.1-0.3 seconds.

 

[Stromgar]

Re: Windfury Totem & Swing Timer

Laintime-C
30:54
Dodge or w/e (can't speak Korean)
30:55 Hamstring 47
30:55 White hit (supposedly Windfury)
30:59 White hit

4 second gap from Windfury to last white and almost 5 second gap from first to last.

Laintime is very clearly out of AA range p much the entire time after the overpower, thats why theres no autos coming out.

2:52 White hit 283
2:54 Hamstring
2:54 White hit (Windfury)

Next possible White hit without resetting would be at 2:55/2:56 (2:56 only if the timing was really off)
2:56 you see him performing a Mortal Strike so hes still within melee range, yet not regular hit is performed. He also gets hit for 101 at 2:56 to 2:57 which also implies that hes still within range. The timer should have already reset until then, imo.

Next possible White hit with resetting would be at 2:58/2:59.
Disregarding lag or w/e he is in range at least once at 2:58. Since he didn't perform a melee swing in this moment I conclude that his weapon timer was still not fully reset and he had to at least wait another 0.1-0.3 seconds.

If we assume wf doesnt reset, the white is at :52 and expected next one is :55.8
(again, i used rowvid to do this frame by frame, you can tell serverside hit pretty well from ragegain/healthloss, i got :52.4 expecting next at :56.2)

He moves just before were expecting this hit.

if we assume that youre correct, and wf at :54 resets swingtime, next expected white would be at :57.8
(personally going frame by frame i got :54.2 expecting next at :58, but doesnt matter)

we see a hit at :58 58.4, right as he comes into range) - This hit is visually delayed to the next attack cluster at 3:02. (the very blurry red text in clog is the whitehit, you can see +1 rage from unbridaled wrath)

doesnt tell us anything.

 

[filvorja]

It does not really matter if the hit was delayed to :58 cause of range since his autohit should have gone off already way earlier anyways. Exactly in the moment he got close enought to be hit himself. Melee is almost 90° before autohits stops, so him beeing turned slightly to the side shouldn't do anything.

You say that you could expect the next hit at :58 if the timer is reset and then confirm that there actually is a hit at :58?
If the weapon timer was not reset by the WF he should have hit earlier than that, or?

fixed phrasing (was I drunk?)

 

[Stromgar]

The hit landing at :58 does not confirm reset, like i said he moved out of range when we would have expected an unreset attack to land.

 

[IHATEMYCLASS]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4GpGBh1R0I&feature=youtu.be&t=120
http://rowvid.com/?v=t4GpGBh1R0I

Note: these timestamps are when the warrior's health bar moves, NOT based on the combat text.

124:16 - white crit. procs flurry (361)
126:36 - stromstrike miss, procs windfury (290, 218) - this time is from when the Extra Attack! message pops up
127:39 - white hit just after the windfury (275)

The windfury proc is only 2.2 seconds after the initial white hit, too quick for his 2.9 swing timer. Clearly he could not have auto-attacked 0.7 seconds faster than his swing timer, right?. Also, the third chunk of white damage (275) shows up at 3.2 seconds after the initial hit. That is exactly what we should be seeing, if windfury procs are NOT resetting swing-timer.

The windfury proc also goes off the instant that he casts stormstrike, regardless of the fact that it missed. Now, I didn't play a shaman in retail vanilla, but is it possible that a windfury could proc from a Missed stormstrike? I have no other evidence to say that it could, but this clip is fairly convincing, atleast to me.

Please go watch it in Rowvid, at 0.25 speed, as we have. You can go frame-by-frame with an exact timestamp, it makes it much clearer. The difference in swing-timer is too much to be caused by lag.. 0.7 seconds is huge, considering the difference on the other end is less than 0.1 seconds.

 

[filvorja]

The Stormstrike did not proc anything here as it missed its target. Misses can not proc anything.
And please don't come with clips of spells misses causing procs. Thats a whole different matter.

The timing of the autohits are both 2.6~ appart from each other. Thats really faster than expected. As it does not indicate anything since the yellow attack didnt connect its obsolete information though. At least regarding this issue.

 

[IHATEMYCLASS]

So with the 2.6 seconds between autos, which you agreed to, that leaves 2 options.
a) you're misinterpreting the evidence, and windfury did proc off a Miss, and didn't reset his swing timer. This means the windfury nerf would have to be reverted
b) Flurry gives an extra ~15% haste

If you can come up with an option c) that actually makes sense, and isn't just saying "lag caused a 0.3-0.4 seconds shift on 2 different autos", I'd love to hear it.

Personally, I would actually prefer the haste buff to all Flurry effects, that would be a nice little boost to melee classes. But really, option a makes alot more sense, and is actually blizzlike. =)

 

[Jonezy]

I would like to make a formal complaint about filvorja and point out that he is more emotionally invested in proving us wrong than actually fixing this bug. He is going so far as to delete post on the bug report, make up numbers to try and make his points seem valid. Now I know I'm not providing any information in regards to the bug because I don't believe I need to. Other people are posting clear enough evidence to prove that it is in fact broken. On top of that some much time and effort has been wasted on this bug report that could have been fixed a while ago.

 

[filvorja]

Jonezy, the opposite is the case. You all have a severe case of confirmation bias.
I delete post on the bugtracker that contain nothing else then PERSONAL opinion without any content that would help to solve the issue. That is totally justified wether you'd like to admit it or not.
Never once did I delete posts that were actually aimed towards solving the issue and I investigated all the presented evidence.

How come that so far every scene posted had a logical explanation as to why it didn't actually show what you guys wanted to see?
How hard is it to find scenes that are clearly showing without the slightest doubt that windfury is able to put whitehits in between your swing cycle? Its a 20% chance on every yellow attack after all. Considering global cd beeing 1.5 seconds this should happen quite a bit, no?

@IHATEMYCLASS
I does not matter how fast or slow the attack timer is as the scene you provided can not, as misses do not cause procs, show anything else then autohits.
I mean, even if that would indicate anything, which it doesn't, the last windfury should have come way earlier. At least 0.6 seconds before. That would have been noticable.

To elaborate. The only scenes that can give insight are scenes where a yellow attack was triggering Windfury. Everything else is redundant.

NOTE: Stay on topic and leave out your personal opinion or this thing is getting closed if you can't have a rational conversation.

 

[AG007]

Its a 20% chance on every yellow attack after all. Considering global cd beeing 1.5 seconds this should happen quite a bit, no?

RNG is RNG ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Now, I haven't been following this issue too much, but I've seen people post patch notes/blue posts regarding how this should work. How come you don't accept that? I mean, it's literally the most trusted and not doubtful source of evidence you can get. I'm sure that if it had been the other way around, meaning if you had the patch note/blue post as proof, this issue would'nt have been open to discussion.

 

[IHATEMYCLASS]

So let me get this right..
- You ignore the fact that windfury procs the instant he hits stormstrike (low chance due to slow wep)
- You assume that his swing timer was atleast 0.3-0.4 seconds faster than possible, with no explanation
- You ignore the fact that one of the auto attacks clearly shows up later than the rest

Like.. You just dismiss the entire clip, while citing a source that's about a completely different mechanic, from a completely different expansion? And don't explain the timing of the auto-hits at all, when that's what the entire discussion is about?

Even beyond all that, you're still working under the assumption that all extra-hit procs work the same way as rogue's sword spec.. For your evidence you linked to a bug-report regarding rogue sword spec.. Go re-read those posts, and see if you can find windfury, hand of justice, thrash blade, ironfoe, anything mentioned anywhere..
Spoiler: they don't mention any of those, even though they have much larger impacts than sword spec.

Now, if these people were going so in-depth, in multiple long math-filled posts, do you not find it odd that other extra-hit procs are never mentioned in the same way? In the rogue thread from patch 2.0.1, it even refers to rogue sword-spec resetting swing-timer as a bug, suggesting that was an anomaly, as in not the same as other extra-hit procs.

I'm sorry but.. You're literally not giving any rational explanation/evidence for what is happening in this clip, and are still using the baseless assumption that windfury = warrior sword spec = rogue sword spec = everything else, when you have no evidence of that.

I think Swagkhalifa also brought up a great point. If this was the other way, and you had the opportunity to use a blue post from 2006 as evidence for your argument, you can guarantee there would be no discussion about the reliability of it. It's an indisputable statement, from the most reliable source possible, about how the mechanic was changed to work.

 

[filvorja]

Cause what the patchnotes say and what you can observer in videos are 2 different things. Its a widely accepted fact that weapon swing timers really did reset on additional hits. Lets say if your offhand or a style procs a sword spec and your mainhand performs it, then the mainhand timer is reset.
The problem is wether this mechancis extends to 2hand or single wielding aswell.

The posted blue posts suggest that the weapon should reset so I fail to see your point.
The video evidence was also not conclusive as the scenes were either wrongly interpreted by the posters or contained information that was not related or relevant to the issue.

Some of you might feel that the provided evidence was solid, but if that were the case then the issue would have been confirmed already. And I am not the only one who could do so. Its not like you have to convince me personally. Which is absurd since I am completely indifferent about it and just want to make sure that the issue is resolved correctly and not just according to anybody feelings or interpretations.

At this point it seems like people are getting personally offended if their provided evidence doesn't hold ground. Or they just act like we are out to get them or something. I don't know.

Your last statement isn't true. There are more instances on the bugtracker where patchnotes were disregarded as they simply didn't reflect what we could see in videos.

@IHATEMYCLASS
MISSES CAN NOT CAUSE PROCS. This is not a baseless assumption. Yes, I am dismissing this scene since it CAN NOT contain any usefull information about this issue. There has to be a windfury proc on a yellow attack, otherwise you can not conclude anything.

 

[IHATEMYCLASS]

Its a widely accepted fact that weapon swing timers really did reset on additional hits

How is this widely known? Every person I have shown this bug report to has said this is NOT how it worked in retail.. You're the only person who is saying it worked this way.

The posted blue posts suggest that the weapon should reset so I fail to see your point.

Did you read the blue post from patch 1.4? If so, go re-read it a bit more carefully.

MISSES CAN NOT CAUSE PROCS. This is not a baseless assumption.

You still haven't given any other possible explanation. You still have provided no source other than something related to Shiv, a mechanic introduced a year after vanilla ended. If you had given a possible explanation for the swing-timers in that clip, I would drop it in a heartbeat, but you have no explanation for it.

Just saying "keep it on-topic" doesn't mean you can ignore things that have a direct impact on what is going on in the clip.


P.S. Here is the blue post

Patch 1.4:

Extra attacks gained from spells and abilities are applied immediately and do not affect normal combat swing time.

This is the last blue post during vanilla that even mentions how extra-hit procs are meant to work. Not sure how much simpler it could be put.

 

[filvorja]

Thats a patchnote, not a bluepost.
Man... even the video that Fei linked (rogue in AQ) showed a series of windfury proc that literally prevented the regular mainhand swingtimer to go off. Its right there infront of your eyes if you cared to watch.

I don't need to come up with an explanation for this scene as it is missing a yellow attack. Show me in instance where misses proc abilities. Please. I am very much interested.

https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?spell=16362
Tooltip says "each hit has a chance" and not "each swing in the general direction of your target".

 

[Stromgar]

Oh my people have been busy arguing while i was away, take a breath, calm down and listen:
afaik the situation is as follows:
-neither side has found the god proof of inarguable late-patch video evidence.
-patch note says one things EJ theorycrafters say another
-The theorycrafting talk has NOT BEEN CONCRETELY LINKED to windfury, only hoj/swordspec. You insist that wf must be the same, but afaik you havent backed this up with anything other than conjecture, thoughts?

in the meantime i guess im back to crawling through videos to get a patch applied on assumption overridden.
This here is why were a little on edge, but i do agree that the arguements against the provided evidence youve made have been sensible.

 

[filvorja]

Actually no, the rogue in Feis video is chaining (3 times in a row) windfury procs and his Mainhand only performs windfuries and no regular hits. This at least seems to indicate strongly that its the same thing at least for dual wielding.
Its not just the EJ post that is backing up this claim its several different and (probably?!?) unrelated sites that come to the same conclusion. And as mentioned the provided video evidence that shows what the TC threads are claiming.

I can totally related to how much of a drag it is to scroll through hours of gameplay to find appropriate material.
I mean, I am watching everything that is provided thouroughly before coming to a conclusion, that alone takes up quite some time. Not to mention trying to find scenes that disprove the report.

but i do agree that the arguements against the provided evidence youve made have been sensible.

I'd confirm the report immediately if this weren't the case. This is not my personal vendetta gainst WF users. After all, I enjoy WF totem as much as the next warrior.

 

[Stromgar]

Christ you went and said it, ive been putting off parsing Feis rogue properly because ~parsing dualwield~ but that isnt what it looked like at the quick glance i took, brb..

Alright, so this is the sequence before we go into S&D (which turns dualwield from a pain to impossible) edit, video in question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJ-RkuF3PYg
AQR 2.8 aspeed MAINHAND
Mala 2.2 aspeed OFFHAND


~0:22 both attacks + a windfury - starting point - inaccurate


0:23 next offhand
0:23.7 next mainhand
0:24.1 offhand crit
0:25 sinister+wf
0:25.9 offhand crit
0:26.6 both attacks

as far as i can tell the mainhand attack after the crucial midswing sinister+wf occurs as expected roughly ~2.8 seconds after previous MH. If the sinister+wf had reset we would expect mh hit around 27.8

this is just a rough sketch tho, post if you disagree or meant a different segment in the video

- - - Updated - - -

I'd confirm the report immediately if this weren't the case. This is not my personal vendetta gainst WF users. After all, I enjoy WF totem as much as the next warrior.

The problem here is that you have nothing either, and you went and applied a patch based on that nothing, this is like having to prove your innocence in court or be deemed guilty by default.

 

[filvorja]

Re: Windfury Totem & Swing Timer

The problem here is that you have nothing either, and you went and applied a patch based on that nothing

Not quite. We just removed WF beeing an exception from a rule. It now falls under the same ruleset as other abilities of the same type. There was no reason so far to suggest otherwise.
I explained it in the report already why this makes sense.

http://rowvid.com/?v=Xh5Cg43HAFY

Weapon is Obsidian Edged Blade, 3.40 speed. In the relevant clip he does not have a Flurry proc. He gets one later in the clip, but does not have it during the relevant swings.

Relevant starts at ~540 seconds in

541:23 - White swing (437)
542:41 - Hamstring + Windfury proc (32 + 471)
545:12 - White swing (652 Crit)

Timing between the windfury and second auto = 2.7 seconds, 0.7 seconds faster than his swing-time. Time between the two autos = 3.9

Later in the clip, he gets another set of autos with flurry

556:20 - White crit (954)
556:65 - Windfury proc (580)
558:65 - White hit (567)

Time between the windfury and second auto = 2 seconds with flurry up, multiply 1.3 to get 2.6 seconds - 0.8 seconds faster than his swing-timer. Time between two autos is 2.45 seconds with flurry up, multiply by 1.3 to account for flurry = 3.2. Much closer to his actual swing-time

8:51 he pops Earthstrike, 9:08 it fades. Thats 3 seconds earlier than expected.
Just to make sure
8:40 he pops Lifegiving Gem, it fades at the verge of 8:56 when it should have ended at 9:00.
The scene is speed up, or?

I am not dismissing it entirely, just saying. The numbers didn't add up either way so I thought something is phishy here. If I am on the wrong track, as usual, correct me.

 

[IHATEMYCLASS]

Re: Windfury Totem & Swing Timer

spoke to Badjoke about an hour ago, he suggested I clarify the bug as a new comment on the bug-tracker. He clarified that abilities should not be resetting swing-timer, and said he will speak to the developers in the morning.

This entire issue was done nearly 2 years ago, and they reached the same conclusions that Fei, Stromgar, myself and others have: Windfury procs from abilities do not reset swingtimer. Longer explanation/clarification on the bug tracker, top comment.

 

[filvorja]

The report he is referring to is not the same as this one. It was about additional hits getting stored onto the next melee swing.
Like you hit a target, use MS and trigger sword proc. The sword proc would only fire once your next melee hit was performed.

I will have a chat with him and Chero aswell to make you nothing is getting mixed up.

 

[AG007]

Why don't you just make it as the patch notes states it should be like? - Clearly thats how Blizzard wanted it to be like.
I mean in situations like this one, isn't it about creating a "better" vanilla rather than reproduce bugs to create a blizz-like vanilla?
Making stuff work the way Blizzard wanted it to be, is also kind of blizz-like, isn't it? - I would say so.

 

[Ahlaundoh]

Why don't you just make it as the patch notes states it should be like? - Clearly thats how Blizzard wanted it to be like.
I mean in situations like this one, isn't it about creating a "better" vanilla rather than reproduce bugs to create a blizz-like vanilla?
Making stuff work the way Blizzard wanted it to be, is also kind of blizz-like, isn't it? - I would say so.

this thread shouldn't even exist; the 1.4 patch note from the bug tracker should be more than enough evidence that Windfury in its current state on Kronos is bugged and should not reset swing timer

this is just ridiculous

 

[filvorja]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJ-RkuF3PYg&feature=youtu.be&t=24s

Starting from 00:10 seconds his mongoose is at 58:00. At 00:42 its at 57:00. Thats almost 2x the regular speed.

0:21 840 SS
0:21 780 crit (proc)
0:21 411 windfury

NOTE: offhand hits are ignored on the table

rowvid
A 23.73 674 crit
B 25.17 378 SS
C 25.17 393 windfury
D 26.69 342

1.44 from A to B/C.
1.52 from C to D

Factoring in that the video is speed up by almost 2x you have a pretty large gap from A to D. If the weapon swing timer was not reset by C then D should have happend alot earlier.
1.52 * 2~ is very close to AQRs swing timer of 2.8 seconds.

In other words, the weapon swing timer was just about to reset before B/C, but since B triggered C (windfury) the normal swing never showed up, or else we should have seen 2 white hits from the mainhand.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Same video:

A 84.31 349
B 84.31 386
C 85.47 439 SS
D 85.47 383 windfury
E 86.57 342

Here hes got flurry up putting his swing timer down to 2.8 / 1.3 = 2.15. That means the next mainhand hit is expected at about 1.1 seconds after A/B.
About 1.1 seconds in hes C happens and triggers D. No other hit is shown.
Another 1.1~ seconds later E is performed.
Same as above, we should have either seen E alot sooner.

For me this looks like a reset of the swingtimer.

 

[bl4ckc0d3r]

Filvorja's last post concludes the discussion, I'm afraid.

 

[AG007]

Found this comment posted in 2013:

Just a correction on windfury procing. I believe windfury procing windfury was possible in BETA. But in Vanilla, it was slightly different.

Windfury reset the swing timer on your next auto attack to something like .1 seconds, allowing you to proc another windfury almost instantly. The important distinction here though, is you had a 1/5 shot to proc it, not 2/5.


Good times though when it did happen, 2-3 windfuries with a crit or two could easily 1 shot clothies.

I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for and it is not exactly reliable evidence but I guess it's something that's worth considering(?)

Maybe windfury is just delaying the swing timer by a small fraction of a second, but not full out resetting it?

Source: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...anilla-Fun?p=19790986&viewfull=1#post19790986